Anyone else think that progressive lenses are useless???

[drk]

PALs are pretty good if you get them on presbyopes as it emerges.

I can see the frustration of yanking mature presbyopes from segmented MFs to PALs; that's going to cause a significant trade-off.

My belief is the intermediate utility alone makes PALs the way to go with presbyopia. Start them young!

[MakeOptics]

PALs are pretty good if you get them on presbyopes as it emerges.

I can see the frustration of yanking mature presbyopes from segmented MFs to PALs; that's going to cause a significant trade-off.

My belief is the intermediate utility alone makes PALs the way to go with presbyopia. Start them young!

Great points, the younger the better. I explain to clients all the time get used to them while they are easier to use, and the transition from emerging presbyope to mature presbyope is an easier process. I also find that as the add reaches the +2.00 to +2.50 range the eye has very little flexibility left in which to accommodate for the intermediate section and the transition in power from the top of the beam stopped by the pupil to the bottom of the pupil has enough variation in power to be unusable no matter the design. I explain to clients early, you will eventually need a computer pal or task specific eye wear if you're in an office environment and I have one for that, but I trust they'll let me know when that time comes. This little seed ensures that when the time comes the client isn't yelling at me because the PAL's don't work like the ones in the past but they are ready for that second computer PAL.

[Johns]

Emerging, yes, but not too emerging! What I mean by that is I have often had FT wearers (especially hyperopes) tell me that they were fit in a PAL from the start, and didn't like it. They complained about not seeing the sweet spot, not knowing if they were looking through the correct area, and so on. I've offered to refit them (they are now a 1.75 to 2.50) at n/c, just to see if they'd like it, and I've had great results. The disparity between the distance is much more evident, as is the need for the add.

[Robert Martellaro]

Progressive lens candidates

The best candidates include:
– Previous progressive lens wearers
– Emerging presbyopes with a relatively low Add power– Individuals highly motivated to wear progressives

Candidates that may require consideration include:
– Presbyopes with a relatively high Add power (>+2.25)– Previous wide-segment bifocal wearers
– Individuals sensitive to vertigo or motion sickness
– Individuals with a significant oculomotor imbalance
– Individuals particularly sensitive to changes in vision

http://www.opticampus.com/files/prog...dispensing.pdf

Boroyan HJ, Cho MH, Fuller BC, et.al. Lined multifocal wearers prefer progressive addition lenses. J Am Optom Assoc 1995; 66:296-300.
Borish I, Hitzeman S. Comparison of the acceptance of progressive addition multifocals with blended bifocals. J Am Optom Assoc 1983; 54:415-22.
Gresset J. Subjective evaluations of a new multi-design lens. J Am Optom Assoc 1991; 62:691-8.
Cho MH, Barnette CB, Aiken B, Shipp M. A clinical study of patient acceptance and satisfaction of Varilux Plus and Varilux Infinity lenses. J Am Optom Assoc 1991; 62:449-53.

[Steve Machol]

I don't know, maybe because of a repeated pattern of insults and verbal abuse???

If you have specific examples, please report this posts and I'll take a look.

[Optician1234]

If you have specific examples, please report this posts and I'll take a look.

Yes, I would also like to know as well where this "verbal abuse" is coming from. I think that you guys are just thrown so off kilter by me saying that I think "PAL's are useless" ... That may be why this is being misconstrued as verbal abuse? If so, that is pretty sad ...

Someone posted earlier that maybe I should just work for Warby Parker since they do NOT process progressives at all... That would be pretty awesome! I would love to! And that also shows that there are many online companies that see the burden in processing progressive lenses (especially since it is almost impossible to get a seg. height on an online order ... although it can be done somehow someway) showing also that I am NOT alone in my opinion.

Why are you guys so mad? I haven't sworn or said anything disrespectful... So I am just confused ????? Trolling usually means being disrespectful and using vulgar language, both of which I am NOT doing... I just think some of you are little ruffled that someone has an opinion that seems to differ from your own..??

[Judy Canty]

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

[Uncle Fester]

I think it's safe to say that basically ALL PAL's are a waste of money. I would rather sell a presbyope 3 pairs, or while I'm at it--maybe even 7 pairs of glasses at 7 different focal lengths (If that's what the pt. needs). Sure they are probably going to be burdened by taking them on and off all the time, but at least they will never have visual problems, and if they do, SV lenses are the EASIEST thing in the world to troubleshoot. 95% of the time, my remakes and HM (High Maintenance) patients that cry and complain and kick up a fuss are always progressive lens patients.

Progressive lenses were founded on vanity and cosmetics in mind as the MAIN goal, and NOT V.A. "I just don't want people to think I'm old!! OH NO NEVER!!!!!"

With that said, Ultra-Premium PAL's are even worse and even more of a waste. Ultra-Premium Lenses are not part of the formula to make your optical business grow. Just look at the huge 100 million dollar top optical companies; like ECCA etc. -- Now those guys do it right. They don't promote Ultra-Premium lenses in their 2 pairs for "whatever" sale. I think it says something when huge money making optical's use cheap frames and basic lenses.... Ever wonder why?? -- Now of course those retailers LOVE for their opticians to up-sell to premium (or at least "premium" in retail standards) product, but they stick to the basics and they keep things very cheap to bring traffic into the store. Do you ever see commercials for ultra premium progressive lenses ?? No

This is the original post of the generalizations and assumptions of Optician1234.

In that vein it is a fact that all of us who respond regularly on Optiboard are never going to agree to most of this post.

It did stir the pot which I always enjoy now and then.

But I fear we're at the point of going around in circles so the thread will soon be closed.

[EyeCare Rich]

Optician1234 has been given some solid advice throughout this thread. Some of the info/advice given is very valuable to anyone learning the trade, so I agree Fester, good to stir the pot now and then. 1234 needs to now digest that information and deal with it. Most of his/her replies have been on the negative side, I wouldn't say vulger, but some of them condesending to some good replies. I'll let you all try to find those, as I don't want to go all the way back to find them. Love DRK's reply just a few lines back! Very solid advice.

Good luck in your ventures Optician1234, I hope you learn a little from this little adventure into optiboard.

[Judy Canty]

If we all stop responding, it will die a quiet death.

[KiaABOC]

I agree with you Optician1960. The only stress, if that is what I should call it, I get from fitting a PAL to a patient is having to add +0.25 diopter to the reading and that is not a problem because it's common knowledge that a PAL loses a quarter diopter. I don't follow Optician1234's logic.

[Steve Machol]

Yes, I would also like to know as well where this "verbal abuse" is coming from.

Seriously? Here's some of what you have posted:

"I'm gonna take a guess and say you are NOT an optician that works with patients on a daily basis, otherwise you would understand. And if you are an optician that works at an optical then maybe you do not understand because you have a very poor performing location (ie. not making more than 100 dollars a day). Am I right?"

"Oh my god, I didn't know there were so many reps and NON-opticians on opti-board"

"I am sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you work (or HAVE worked, since you keep referring to your old age) in a very low-volume optical. And, what country do you live in? Here in America, most people have to work in some sort of industry where there is a "conusmer/customer" and you have to play the role of the "provider" to that "conusmer/customer" ... That is a major concept of human society that dates back to thousands of years ago, in case you didn't know. I would love to work in the optical where you work, where it's nothing but ALL compassionate customers you deal with that NEVER get mad or have problems. Give me a break, you obviously work in a tiny optical in most likely a small town farm community."

"Most people here on Optiboard are not going to agree with me because they seem to be mostly hokey lens and frame reps who just "love" glasses for some odd reason."

"Seems like you are trying to flatter your own ego about what kind of meaningless "power" you have."

I think that you guys are just thrown so off kilter by me saying that I think "PAL's are useless" ... That may be why this is being misconstrued as verbal abuse? If so, that is pretty sad ...

Actually what is 'sad' is your incredible lack of knowledge and skill. I certainly would not want my glasses dispensed by you.

Why are you guys so mad? I haven't sworn or said anything disrespectful... So I am just confused ????? Trolling usually means being disrespectful and using vulgar language, both of which I am NOT doing... I just think some of you are little ruffled that someone has an opinion that seems to differ from your own..??

You are confusing 'mad' with 'confused'. Plenty of people are able to express different viewpoints here without insulting the people that disagree with them. Sadly, you are NOT one of those people.

Also you don't even know the definition of Troll. Either that or you are just trolling again, Either way you are a prime example of what is wrong with this industry - lots of people who are too lazy or ignorant to do their jobs competently and who like to blame it all on everyone else. In the end, you are responsible for your own career and given your disdain for it, I don't imagine you will ever have much success, especially considering the way you have reacted to some of the best and most knowledgeable people in this industry. You are free to express your opinions (within limits of courtesy and decency of course) but when you do you really can't complain if people call you out on it.

[Judy Canty]

+1

[Judy Canty]

I agree with you Optician1960. The only stress, if that is what I should call it, I get from fitting a PAL to a patient is having to add +0.25 diopter to the reading and that is not a problem because it's common knowledge that a PAL loses a quarter diopter. I don't follow Optician1234's logic.

What PAL designs are you using? You shouldn't have to add .25D to any add any longer.

[Optician1234]

....Getting back to the topic (since it has been getting very emotional for some peculiar reason....why? I do not know... In the end we are just discussing eyeglass lenses)

Robert brought up some good points on filtering out the best candidates for PAL's VS. some that may need "hand-holding" or extra consideration. But as we all know, some of us that are non-managerial, like myself, are almost literally forced to sell PAL's to anyone with presby. rx. I wish it wasn't that way, but I have no other choice but to follow those rules.

Excuse the extreme yet appropriate hypthetical: If the world's fate was in the hands of one person who needed to achieve a task which utilized NVA ... We would probably all want that person to be wearing SV or FT lenses.

Once again, no one is debating this point: Why are so many online companies NOT processing PAL orders ???? It is because PAL orders are the ones which are more probable to present a problem (or money loss). And don't tell me it's because people need a professional to take a seg. height (seg. heights and PD's could probably be taken by a trained chimpanzee).

If the industry were to take a weird shift (and this could happen, considering the optical industry is prone to weird shifts; demographics/ fads/ demands etc.) and people just started to request multiple SV pairs or solely FT's instead of PAL's ... Would you complain?

[Uilleann]

...If the world's fate was in the hands of one person who needed to achieve a task which utilized NVA ... We would probably all want that person to be wearing SV or FT lenses.

Once again, no one is debating this point

*Raising hand...very high*

I'd debate that any day of the week. As would probably 99.999% of the membership here.

[MakeOptics]

What differentiates the private practice from the retail chains and even online is the progressive lens. That is the biggest reason why this thread is getting so emotional.

Online - smart ones won't even bother with PALs it would destroy them with complaints and returns.

Retail - as you know they limit you to a select few, in a select few materials, and a select few options. Very little troubleshooting allowed very little time to determine if they are a great candidate or not.

Private Practice - you have any lens your lab carries, you are free to offer a FT or TR instead, BTW the treat of a trifocal almost always motivates a PAL wearer to stick it out for a week to two to give me real feedback on if the lenses are the appropriate fit.

Catch me on an off day when I misjudge a patients motivation for a PAL and I'd write them off as well, but most days they are as easy to fit as any other lenses. Plus I got my lab to engrave our office logo on an IOT and we are rocking our own brand with stellar optics and a wide breath of material and option availability, if you ask me its a great time to be selling PALs and if my predictions hold true before 2020 I will be supplying point files from in office software to a lab.

[rdcoach5]

Anyone else think that progressive lenses are useless???


I don't know, but I am beginning to think that this thread is useless!

As Usual , FEZZ is SPOT ON !!!
OK , after reflecting on some past stupid posts I made in the heat of the argument, I think Optician 1234 should be advised as to the civility rule on Optiboard , He also should be advised to advance his optical education .What he's saying about progressives is just Stone Age Stuff . Get with the Digital Free- Forms and you will see a BIG difference !

[LandLord]

I would only expect to hear your complaint from someone who is grossly under-trained in lens selection and patient counselling. The right lens on the right candidate properly counselled would result in a much higher success rate than you are experiencing. Either that or you have never worked with Rodenstock, Essilor, Zeiss or other premium lenses.

[Iheartglasses]

I can't say that I've seen many problems with progressives except when there isn't enough experienced staff. While most of my experience is in lab work, the ability to discuss lenses and fitting comes with ease because I've dispensed enough problem eyewear over the years. It's generally simple to identify those that will not be good candidates for PALs (ie. older patients that have been in lined BF and TF's for long periods of time). It also helps when the business/practice has access to quality progressives. Working inside an optometry school, for instance, helped me learn from various sales reps, professors, longtime opticians, and of course, the next generation of eye doctors. While computer and reading glasses certainly have their benefits and place, why would anyone want to switch back and forth throughout the day? Something has to give somewhere but the option to do otherwise is a must.

[Optician1960]

1234: The online opticals do not have a reliable way of having the customer measure the height, so the likelihood that the customers will not be happy is significantly greater than SV. So the SV business is a quick and easy buck for them and they do not see the need to take on the headache. "Quality Opticians" realize that a well fitting frame with a quality pre-fit before the measurements are taken, give them a significantly greater likelihood the customer will love the PAL lenses. Eliminate the pre-fit with the online along with not having a qualified person to take the measurements greatly decreases the chance for a satisfied customer, and cuts into profits.

As mentioned in my PM to you, if you are serious about improving your situation including knowledge, there are many people on Optiboard including me who would be willing to give you ideas-advice that others who have chosen this as a professional career have found very valuable.

[Chris Ryser]

Refreshing.................have not seen a dirt throwing thread in a while on OptiBoard. I will stay out of it.

[Jason H]

I'm with Chris- this entire thread and the directions it has weaved into is absolutely astonishing.

[AngeHamm]

Excuse the extreme yet appropriate hypthetical: If the world's fate was in the hands of one person who needed to achieve a task which utilized NVA ... We would probably all want that person to be wearing SV or FT lenses.

I'd prefer them to be wearing an excellently-designed, professionally fit PAL than digging through their purse to find multiple pairs of SV lenses, yes.

Once again, no one is debating this point: Why are so many online companies NOT processing PAL orders ???? It is because PAL orders are the ones which are more probable to present a problem (or money loss). And don't tell me it's because people need a professional to take a seg. height (seg. heights and PD's could probably be taken by a trained chimpanzee).

Many people would debate that point, beginning with the premise that PALs do, in fact, require a professional to properly fit them. I'd assume that the onliners don't do a lot of PALs is due to the fact that they know that badly-measured, poorly-designed progressives are a recipe for patient dissatisfaction. The fact that you so denigrate the skills needed to measure and fit eyeglasses tells me everything I need to know about the level of your training in this craft, and makes your rants that this board is full of non-opticians completely laughable.

If the industry were to take a weird shift (and this could happen, considering the optical industry is prone to weird shifts; demographics/ fads/ demands etc.) and people just started to request multiple SV pairs or solely FT's instead of PAL's ... Would you complain?

This isn't going to "just start" to happen, any more than people in the 20th century "just started" to order Executives instead of FT28s. That sort of regressive trend has no precedent.

[SeaU2020]

This is just a silly thought! If I could only have 1 pair of glasses, it would be progressives! I don't have the kind of time to change my glasses 300x a day!