The theory of refraction...at Georgian

[Oedema]

I'll answer this trick question. The answer is:

Only a doctor knows the underlying cause of a medical problem.

Sight testers don't pretend to be doctors. Only sight testers.

Your example actually supports two points for sight testing:
a) sight testing works. (you said the Rx was accurate)
b) sight testing should be reserved for those aged 18 - 64

But yet we have another example of a sight-tester disregarding college guidelines. This sight-tester is probably not even authorized by the college to be doing this.

[optical maven]

My office uses an automated pupilometer. Why is my technician not able to press the button and come up with the PD?

[optical maven]

But yet we have another example of a sight-tester disregarding college guidelines. This sight-tester is probably not even authorized by the college to be doing this.

The point of the example is to say that autorefracting (sight testing) is often accurate. That's why OD's and MD's have used them for 30+ years. However there are other considerations when examining someone, beyond the physical measurement of the refractive error. There are no simple examinations. Every person I examine comes in with a complaint. I assume every person I examine has a problem, whether it be refractive, binocular or pathology. It is my job to find out the answer. The end result might be -2.00, but the road to that conclusion is why I went to university. The fact that the "sight tester" does not understand this, is the very reason why they are autorefractors by a fancier name.

[opti-refractonator]

Hey OM
Very well clarified. well spoken and very justified. However, opticians are first to both giveaway their own roles through delegation and secondly try to acquire an academic skill (refraction) yet not want to increase their education.

Opticians are still wrong when they believe that it is the optometrists who are stopping them from refracting. Not True.

Wake up you fu#*ing moron opticians, it is your college that controls it. We have a group of vag's running the show. They care more about themselves and blowing smoke up each others asses than to actually do anything.

True story. The OMA asked all health professions to VOLUNTARILY submit a delegation policy for their profession. Out of all professions, Opticianry was one of only two professions to submit a delegation policy. Thanks COO. The COO is run by that fat girl in your fifth grade class that new the answer to every question, was the teachers pet, wore braces and read books at lunch time in the library, and was a virgin until 30.

[renee1111]

But yet we have another example of a sight-tester disregarding college guidelines. This sight-tester is probably not even authorized by the college to be doing this.

Huh??????????????????????????????????????? What exactly are you talking about here? Am I missing something?

[renee1111]

The point of the example is to say that autorefracting (sight testing) is often accurate. That's why OD's and MD's have used them for 30+ years. However there are other considerations when examining someone, beyond the physical measurement of the refractive error. There are no simple examinations. Every person I examine comes in with a complaint. I assume every person I examine has a problem, whether it be refractive, binocular or pathology. It is my job to find out the answer. The end result might be -2.00, but the road to that conclusion is why I went to university. The fact that the "sight tester" does not understand this, is the very reason why they are autorefractors by a fancier name.

And where in this thread did we state that we wanted to be "doctors"? NOWHERE!!! No offence but you couldn't pay me enough to want to become an OD. Being stuck in a tiny office, asking "is this better or worse" over and over and over....not to mention the God complex that seems to come along with the title. No Thanks...not interested. I love what I do, and I wouldn't change it for the world....except for maybe adding sight testing to my normal routine.

[tmorse]

The point of the example is to say that autorefracting (sight testing) is often accurate. That's why OD's and MD's have used them for 30+ years. However there are other considerations when examining someone, beyond the physical measurement of the refractive error. There are no simple examinations. Every person I examine comes in with a complaint. I assume every person I examine has a problem, whether it be refractive, binocular or pathology. It is my job to find out the answer. The end result might be -2.00, but the road to that conclusion is why I went to university. The fact that the "sight tester" does not understand this, is the very reason why they are autorefractors by a fancier name.

My, my, my...aren't we superior!!

[Oedema]

Huh??????????????????????????????????????? What exactly are you talking about here? Am I missing something?

Optical Maven gave gave a case in which he/she examined a 13yo with complaint of HA's after receiving a "sight-test" and spectacles made on the results of that "sight -test."

The COO recently released standard of practice guidelines for optician performed refraction. Some of the relevant guidelines are:
1. Patient must be between the ages of 19-64
2. Patient must have had an eye health exam within the last 365 days with clearance/referral from the physician/optometrist
3. Optician must hold a "refracting designation" from the COO
4. Optician must provide a copy of the patient consent form to the COO (for every patient).

Now this is partially speculation on my part... But I'm thinking that at least three of the above were violated in this case.

[HarryChiling]

Communicating a diagnosis, diagnosing a disease or disorder, prescribing or dispensing are all controlled acts in Ontario because they are deemed to be harmful if not done correctly, by a trained person. Fitting glasses on any 2D myope is fairly simple, which anyone probably can do. However, we are all trained for the exception, and not the rule. I just examined a 13 year old who had been autorefracted, er sight tested, at a retail store. She was a simple myope, -2.75 OU, and her myopia 14 months earlier was -1.00. She complained of asthenopia at school with her new glasses. Glasses were made correctly and her refraction was correct. So, your the sight tester: What are the reasons for her complaint and what further questions should you ask about this case? I'll give you the answer in a few days.

Oedema,

It's speculation if this really happened or not, and it's speculation what optical maven is talking about here, I can't tell if it was an autorefractor reading, a sight tester, or a horrible OD pumping scripts out. Maybe a bit more clarification is in order, optical maven can you give more definates as to what exactly happened?

[tmorse]

Optical Maven gave gave a case in which he/she examined a 13yo with complaint of HA's after receiving a "sight-test" and spectacles made on the results of that "sight -test."

The COO recently released standard of practice guidelines for optician performed refraction. Some of the relevant guidelines are:
1. Patient must be between the ages of 19-64
2. Patient must have had an eye health exam within the last 365 days with clearance/referral from the physician/optometrist
3. Optician must hold a "refracting designation" from the COO
4. Optician must provide a copy of the patient consent form to the COO (for every patient).

Now this is partially speculation on my part... But I'm thinking that at least three of the above were violated in this case.

So Optical Maven simply needs to call the COO and register a formal complaint!!!

[renee1111]

So let me get this straight, Renee1111, you don't want to be a doctor sitting in a room saying one or two. When you go to Georgian for your course, what did you think they are going to teach you. "here is the autorefractor, put the plug in the wall socket, turn on the power, press the big green button, take the rx and make some glasses". No sweetie, bring yourself into the real world.


I also don't want to be a doctor............ but i want the extra money
I don't want to be an OBGYN........... but i want to look at pussy all day
I don't want to be a porn star..........but i want to be hung like a horse

Oh, let me help clarify for you, I want to even the playing field when it comes down to being able to offer full services such as refraction. Because right now, it is nothing but a hassle trying to obtain my customers RX. Try giving someone a quote when it takes the OD's office three days to fax it to me. Or going through the trouble of finding the "perfect frame" semi-rimless no doubt, to later find out, their a +6.00D. It would save me the frustrations of depending on my direct competition.

[renee1111]

You love what you do, wouldn't mind sight-testing, but hate the idea of "being stuck in a tiny offie asking 'is this better or worse'"?

Something seems inconsistent to me here...

See above statement also....

[LandLord]

renee: I'll let you in on a secret. OD's also hate being stuck in a little room all day asking "better one, better two."

But they do love being called "doctor" and they do love the money they make.

Optometry school might be a big challenge but the job is the easiest money you can make!!

[LandLord]

There are no simple examinations.

True, but most refractions are very simple.

[eyemanflying]

Hey OM
Very well clarified. well spoken and very justified. However, opticians are first to both giveaway their own roles through delegation and secondly try to acquire an academic skill (refraction) yet not want to increase their education.

Opticians are still wrong when they believe that it is the optometrists who are stopping them from refracting. Not True.

Wake up you fu#*ing moron opticians, it is your college that controls it. We have a group of vag's running the show. They care more about themselves and blowing smoke up each others asses than to actually do anything.

True story. The OMA asked all health professions to VOLUNTARILY submit a delegation policy for their profession. Out of all professions, Opticianry was one of only two professions to submit a delegation policy. Thanks COO. The COO is run by that fat girl in your fifth grade class that new the answer to every question, was the teachers pet, wore braces and read books at lunch time in the library, and was a virgin until 30.

And I had a sighting of her and her bum buddy in NY while at the VEE. Funny thing is, it was 1PM on Saturday afternoon and they were in a toy store and not at the show?? And I'm sure the trip was expensed on our funds to the COO.:hammer:

[Steve Machol]

Crude and offiensive post by opt-refractioner removed as well as posts quoting his. That type of language and conduct is not acceptable on OptiBoard. :angry:

[kws6000]

True, but most refractions are very simple.

\


And exactly what gives you the expertise to make this statement?

How many refractions have you performed?

[kws6000]

renee: I'll let you in on a secret. OD's also hate being stuck in a little room all day asking "better one, better two."

But they do love being called "doctor" and they do love the money they make.

Optometry school might be a big challenge but the job is the easiest money you can make!!

If it is so easy and if you are so smart,why dont you go to into optometry and join the gravy train?

[HarryChiling]

If it is so easy and if you are so smart,why dont you go to into optometry and join the gravy train?

Correct me if I am wrong but refraction is:

1. Establish Sphere
2. Cylinder Axis Refinement
3. Cylinder Power Refinement
4. Sphere Power Refinement
5. Rinse and Repeat (OS)
6. Balance

I think he meant the process of refraction is simple, the art behind it is another matter. I would agree here with both sides their is an art to it that requires skill and knowledge, but the process of refraction is simple.

[kws6000]

Oh, let me help clarify for you, I want to even the playing field when it comes down to being able to offer full services such as refraction. Because right now, it is nothing but a hassle trying to obtain my customers RX. Try giving someone a quote when it takes the OD's office three days to fax it to me. Or going through the trouble of finding the "perfect frame" semi-rimless no doubt, to later find out, their a +6.00D. It would save me the frustrations of depending on my direct competition.

If is such a hassle why dont you send the customer back to the od office to pick up the rx in person? Im assuming you are in Sudbury or some other small center where its likely a 10 min drive at most.

Sorry to burst your bubble of self importance,but it isnt up to the optometrist to drop everything to send you an rx because your customer either lost their rx or didnt bring it in.

As you put it why would they go out of their way to help the competition? You are lucky they even fax you the rx. If they wanted to ,they could require the customer to pick up their rx in person.

Looking at your customers current eyeglasses would give you a rough idea of what their rx would be and would likely lessen the time you waste.

[kws6000]

Correct me if I am wrong but refraction is:

1. Establish Sphere
2. Cylinder Axis Refinement
3. Cylinder Power Refinement
4. Sphere Power Refinement
5. Rinse and Repeat (OS)
6. Balance

I think he meant the process of refraction is simple, the art behind it is another matter. I would agree here with both sides their is an art to it that requires skill and knowledge, but the process of refraction is simple.

Any procedure can be simplified into a number of steps which fail to take into account the skill required to get an accurate and useful result.

If refracting were that easy,there wouldnt be any redoes.

I get tired of the OD envy exhibited by a few of the posters on this forum.If they honestly feel that it is that easy a way to make a pile of money,then why dont they become one instead of sniping.

The reality of the optical business is that ODs supply the majority of accurate RXs that opticians need in order to earn a living .

[renee1111]

If is such a hassle why dont you send the customer back to the od office to pick up the rx in person? Im assuming you are in Sudbury or some other small center where its likely a 10 min drive at most.

I have 3 OD's down the street. And do yah want to know what they do when someone goes in to ask for ther RX? First they guilt trip them, and make them feel as if they are doing something wrong. Then if they still haven't managed to change there minds, they make them wait for countless HOURS, (and I'm not exagerating here)
to give them their RX.

Sorry to burst your bubble of self importance,but it isnt up to the optometrist to drop everything to send you an rx because your customer either lost their rx or didnt bring it in.

DITTO!!!!

Have you ever heard of OD's not giving the RX at the time of the exam? Maybe you do, but my local OD's DO NOT!! (To make it difficult to shop elsewhere)


As you put it why would they go out of their way to help the competition? You are lucky they even fax you the rx. If they wanted to ,they could require the customer to pick up their rx in person.


Because it's LAW!!!!! Plain and simple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking at your customers current eyeglasses would give you a rough idea of what their rx would be and would likely lessen the time you waste.

And what if they didn't bring there glasses with them, eh, smarty?

I'm starting to think that it's a conflict of interest for OD's to be dispensing eyewear, just by the views expressed in this post. Doesn't look good on you....your patients may be reading this. Pull up and start acting like an respected professional!

[HarryChiling]

Any procedure can be simplified into a number of steps which fail to take into account the skill required to get an accurate and useful result.

That's what I said glad we can agree.

If refracting were that easy,there wouldnt be any redoes.

Your right, that's where the art behind the refraction coems into play, you would probably refer to it as your clinical judgement, tomato tomatoe.

I get tired of the OD envy exhibited by a few of the posters on this forum.If they honestly feel that it is that easy a way to make a pile of money,then why dont they become one instead of sniping.

I am sure it's not easy making money performing exams, I bet the public gives you more of a hard time for a $40.00 - $60.00 eye exam than they give me for a pair of glasses that I would sell for $600.00. There is no quick buck left in our industry.

The reality of the optical business is that ODs supply the majority of accurate RXs that opticians need in order to earn a living .

That's true, I would more likely trust an OD's script before I trust an OMD's script, but I still think that the natural progression for my profession is in refracting. I think that opticians can do it and can do it well if taught the correct procedures and skills. Opticiasn at least in the US haven't seen our scope of practice increase in decades, many have attained the knowledge necessary to advance their scope, many have not.

I don't really understand why optometry doesn't embrace opticianry, if our profession gets stronger your profession gets stronger, in the mean time lets just let the internet retailers nip at our heals and the insurance companies nip at yours, doesn't make any sense.:hammer:

[Barry Santini]

I'm starting to think that it's a conflict of interest for OD's to be dispensing eyewear

I do NOT agree!

Barry

[HarryChiling]

I think it's a conflict of interest to have optometrists try to dictate what an optician can and cannot do, but sell eyewear should be WELL WITHIN THEIR SCOPE OF PRACTICE.