View Poll Results: Did Ron Paul correctly predict this mornings "Gulf of Tonkin" incident?

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  • Yes. The United States probably provoked Iran.

    5 35.71%
  • No. Iran probably provoked the United States.

    8 57.14%
  • Not sure.

    1 7.14%
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Thread: Did Ron Paul correctly predict this morning's "Gulf of Tonkin" incident?

  1. #1
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    Did Ron Paul correctly predict this morning's "Gulf of Tonkin" incident?

    CNN reports: "The U.S. military reported Monday on a 'significant' confrontation involving five Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats that 'harassed and provoked' three U.S. naval ships in international waters over the weekend." http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/07/iran.us.navy/index.html

    In January, Ron Paul spoke before the US House of Representatives:
    "We should remember that Iran, like Iraq, is a third-world nation without a significant military. Nothing in history hints that she is likely to invade a neighboring country, let alone do anything to America or Israel. I am concerned, however, that a contrived Gulf of Tonkin–type incident may occur to gain popular support for an attack on Iran." http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul362.html

    Did Ron Paul correctly predict this morning's "Gulf of Tonkin" incident? Is this an attempt by Iran to influence the primary elections that begin at midnight, or an attempt by the Bush administration to do so?
    Last edited by 1968; 01-07-2008 at 01:01 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    I think Ron Paul got it right, though he was far from the first person to suggest it. I have been hearing talk of a potential Tonkin type of event on the radio for several months now.
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    The administration might, but the Navy does not lie about such things. Amoung other things there would be at least 3000 men on each ship to confirm or deny what happened.
    Of course if the origional "Gulf of Tonkin" incident had resulted as it should have with us defending ourselves on the spot, I am sure many of you would not have believed it happened.

    Chip

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968 View Post
    In January, Ron Paul spoke before the US House of Representatives: "We should remember that Iran, like Iraq, is a third-world nation without a significant military ..."

    Iran tested a newly-developed ballistic missile on the day of the Annapolis conference ...

    The Ashoura missile has a range of 2,000 kilometers and is capable of reaching Israel, [other targets] in the Middle East and eastern European cities.

    According to the report, the new missile is an improvement to the existing Shihab-3 missile. The Ashoura uses solid fuel instead of the Shihab's liquid fuel, giving it a significantly faster launch sequence which is harder to detect.

    . . .

    Experts also believe Iran is developing the Shihab-4 missile, thought to have a range between 2,000 and 3,000 kilometers that would put much of Europe in range.
    Jerusalem Post; December 12, 2007.


    Winds will remain steady at 1300 kilometers per hour. Barometric pressure falling to just 0.003 millibar above perfect vacuum. Up to three kilometers of frozen methane on the ground by sunset. Temperatures ranging from 7 to 10 degrees above absolute zero. Ron Paul will return with another weather update from Neptune at the top of the hour ...
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-30-2008 at 05:23 PM.

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    Ron Paul thinks inflation is through the roof and that the Federal Reserve still prints money like crazy to solve problems.

    As much as I enjoy his isolationist principals (well I am more for using better judgment when going to war than total isolation), I just cannot get passed his backwards and uneducated economic ideals.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968 View Post
    In January, Ron Paul spoke before the US House of Representatives: "We should remember that Iran, like Iraq, is a third-world nation without a significant military. Nothing in history hints that she is likely to invade a neighboring country, let alone do anything to America or Israel. I am concerned, however, that a contrived Gulf of Tonkin–type incident may occur to gain popular support for an attack on Iran." http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul362.html
    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    Jerusalem Post; December 12, 2007.


    Winds will remain steady at 1300 kilometers per hour. Barometric pressure falling to just 0.003 millibar above perfect vacuum. Up to three kilometers of frozen methane on the ground by sunset. Temperatures ranging from 7 to 10 degrees above absolute zero. Ron Paul will return with another weather update from Neptune at the top of the hour ...
    I hope you know I love your way with words and the way you make your points! The context of Paul's statement was that Iran is in no position to invade the United States or Israel. If Iran were to launch a missile attack towards Israel, Israel could obliterate Iran with their stockpile. If Iran were to launch a missile attack on US bases, the US could do the same... and they should.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968 View Post
    I hope you know I love your way with words and the way you make your points! The context of Paul's statement was that Iran is in no position to invade the United States or Israel. If Iran were to launch a missile attack towards Israel, Israel could obliterate Iran with their stockpile. If Iran were to launch a missile attack on US bases, the US could do the same... and they should.
    OK. But to say (as you attribute to Ron Paul) "that there's nothing in history ..." ... the Iran-Iraq war ... when Iran turned the tables and started winning, the Iranian regime didn't want to stop short of "total victory" ... the U.S., together with Egypt, had to give Iraq secret military assistance to put a check on Iran ... and then there was the 2006 summer war between Hezbollah and Israel ... Hezbollah as widely understood to be backed up by Iran.

    I don't want to get too sidetracked on this Ron Paul statement about Iran at the moment, because I want to report something new: James Kerchick was just on MSNBC talking about a story he is putting together for The New Republic. According to Kerchick, there was something called the "Ron Paul Newsletter". And many of the quotes from this newsletter are radical, racially bigoted and fixated on the idea of a new Confederacy: Talking about states seceding (again) ...

    Ron Paul is trying to separate himself from these statements, but it's not clear whether he will be able to do so.

    Wonder if this story is going to hang around or if it's just a blip on the radar that will soon be forgotten.

    I'm not "all that much" against Ron Paul (so far).

    I think he ought to run as a third party candidate under a Libertarian flag.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-09-2008 at 09:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    OK. But to say (as you attribute to Ron Paul) "that there's nothing in history ..." ... the Iran-Iraq war ... when Iran turned the tables and started winning, the Iranian regime didn't want to stop short of "total victory" ... the U.S., together with Egypt, had to give Iraq secret military assistance to put a check on Iran ... and then there was the 2006 summer war between Hezbollah and Israel ... Hezbollah as widely understood to be backed up by Iran.
    First of all, the Iran-Iraq war began when Iraq invaded Iran. Secondly, I think Israel can handle Hezbollah by themselves. I frequently wonder what they would do if they didn't have the US on their back.

    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    I don't want to get too sidetracked on this Ron Paul statement about Iran at the moment, because I want to report something new: James Kerchick was just on MSNBC talking about a story he is putting together for The New Republic. According to Kerchick, there was something called The Ron Paul Newsletter (I think that's what Kerchick called it) before Ron Paul won his current seat in Congress. Went on for years, this newsletter. And many of the quotes from this newsletter are radical, racially bigoted and fixated on the idea of a new Confederacy: Talking about states seceding (again) ...

    Ron Paul is trying to separate himself from these statements, but it's not clear whether he will be able to do so.

    Wonder if this story is going to hang around or if it's just a blip on the radar that will soon be forgotten.
    If it doesn't bite him now, it will surely bite him later if he does gain significant popular support. This story has been around for years, however, it's interesting that it's being resurrected on the eve of the New Hampshire primary. As I understand it, the comments in question were written by a ghost writer, but Paul accepted responsibility for them. I guess one will assume Paul is truthful if you like him or you'll assume he is lying if you don't. (My opinion is that charges of bigotry don't seem consistent with everything else I've heard about him.) Here is a bit more about the story that ran in May...

    http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=41822

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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    Ron Paul thinks inflation is through the roof and that the Federal Reserve still prints money like crazy to solve problems.

    As much as I enjoy his isolationist principals (well I am more for using better judgment when going to war than total isolation), I just cannot get passed his backwards and uneducated economic ideals.
    I think we argued the first point previously but tying it together with the second, Paul and others have argued that the Federal Reserve's ability to create money affords the federal government an easy way to fund war. I would also like to point out that there is a difference between isolationist and non-interventionist. I heard Paul in one debate describe the current administration's go-it-alone policy as "neo-isolationist". Either way, I can understand how you might not agree with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968 View Post
    I think we argued the first point previously but tying it together with the second, Paul and others have argued that the Federal Reserve's ability to create money affords the federal government an easy way to fund war. I would also like to point out that there is a difference between isolationist and non-interventionist. I heard Paul in one debate describe the current administration's go-it-alone policy as "neo-isolationist". Either way, I can understand how you might not agree with him.
    He did not argue, he accused. Big difference. The Federal Reserve has not printed money to pay for the War. The Government has used debt to fund it.

    Funny, he wants to make that position elected, where in the past elected influences have printed money and now we see how they are handling debt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    He did not argue, he accused. Big difference. The Federal Reserve has not printed money to pay for the War. The Government has used debt to fund it.
    "Argued", "accused", "asserted", "claimed", "postulated", "stated"... whatever. Prominent economists such as Murray Rothbard and Lawrence Parks have said essentially the same thing (i.e. moving away from hard money made financing war easier). Disagree as you wish, but the point is that Paul's ideas are not those of a loan nut as you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    Funny, he wants to make that position elected, where in the past elected influences have printed money and now we see how they are handling debt.
    I have no idea what this statement means.

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Ron Paul: Newsletters, "Confederate" associations focus of story in The New Republic
    MSNBC video segment

    U.S. spokesperson describes naval incident in Strait of Hormuz
    MSNBC video segment

    It may well be that in 1964, anything said by a spokesperson for North Vietnam would have been ignored by the MSM (mainstream media) -- but today? I can't find a credible statement on the Internet about this naval incident in the Strait of Hormuz from any spokesperson for Iran. MSNBC hasn't updated their report since the story first broke.

    This may break the hearts of some OptiBoard posters (e.g., the five who voted for "The U.S. probably provoked Iran"), but I'm ready to conclude that this navy boats harassment story is going nowhere.

    Another "Gulf of Tonkin" incident? An incident, cited by the U.S. as a pretext for moving towards a military operation against Iran, and then revealed long afterwards as a distorted accounting of what actually occurred? Revealed as a misleading and seriously incomplete or inaccurate account?

    Dream on ... and stay tuned to Air America Radio.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-08-2008 at 11:03 AM.

    Are you reading more posts and enjoying it less? Make RadioFreeRinsel your next Internet port of call ...

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    Who's Ron Paul?



    ;):cheers:;):cheers:;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968 View Post
    "Argued", "accused", "asserted", "claimed", "postulated", "stated"... whatever. Prominent economists such as Murray Rothbard and Lawrence Parks have said essentially the same thing (i.e. moving away from hard money made financing war easier). Disagree as you wish, but the point is that Paul's ideas are not those of a loan nut as you suggest.

    I have no idea what this statement means.
    Nixon/Carter used their influences to print money to try to help the economies in their terms. It should never have been allowed. The Federal Reserve is supposed to be at arms length to the President.

    Bush has used debt to fund the war, is the other example.

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    Actually I think all wars have been funded with debt. I do know for sure that in in 1945 the government was spending 110% of the Gross National Product!

    And no I don't believe in deficit spending, or high taxes. The reason I voted for Ronald Reagan was when he ran for the Republican nomination the first time (a losing effort) he was for a flat tax. I figured he was still for it and the subject never came up when he was president.

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    He did not argue, he accused. Big difference. The Federal Reserve has not printed money to pay for the War. The Government has used debt to fund it.

    Funny, he wants to make that position elected, where in the past elected influences have printed money and now we see how they are handling debt.
    Actually you can't know that for sure, since the Federal Government no longer tells the populace when they are printing money, or how much. These numbers have not been released since right around 9/11.

    And the unemployments numbers are skewed low by the fact that so many people dropped out of the workforce precisely because they couldn't find any work. The most recent estimate I heard on the radio yesterday suggests that the unemployment numbers are probably as much as 3 million higher than reported, which would put our current unemployment rate at about 7-9%. Whether we want to admit it or not, this nation is in its worst financial crisis since the fallout from the Vietnam War of the late 70's.

    India will no longer accept US dollars at their historic archaelogical sites such as the Taj Mahal. It used to cost $2.54 to get in, now visitors must exchange their dollars into Rupees and pay the equivalent of $6.50. YOu have to admit that the US Economy is in bad shape when even India won't take US dollars anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    This may break the hearts of some OptiBoard posters (e.g., the five who voted for "The U.S. probably provoked Iran"), but I'm ready to conclude that this navy boats harassment story is going nowhere.
    I think that was clear not long after I posted the thread; the unnamed Iranian source in the CNN report said as much. Please forgive me if it seems the Washington saber rattling over Iran has me on edge.

    (On your first link, not sure what comments to give since I can't load it or find any new news related to it. It sounds as though TNR will release their story later today.)

    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    Dream on ... and stay tuned to Air America Radio.
    OK, I'll confess that I once listened to Air America for five minutes... but I didn't inhale. I'm not sure if it's even on in my market.

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    I’m a proud listener of Air America and I think anyone who doesn’t at least occasionally listen to the network, especially Thom Hartmann and Rachel Maddow are missing some important stories and perspectives on stories which are shared by a surprising sample of Americans.
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    Yeah, Right. That's why they can't get enough funding to run the program or any significant sponsors.

  20. #20
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    "U da poster" 1968 ...

    TNR already has the posting on their site from James Kirchick, under the title "Angry White Man: The bigoted past of Ron Paul."

    That link that I posted earlier is still working in my world of Intel-powered Mac, Mac OS X and Safari browser software: First there's a half minute commercial for something or other and after that, the five minute segment on the topic of Ron Paul.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 01-08-2008 at 05:06 PM.

  21. #21
    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Yeah, Right. That's why they can't get enough funding to run the program or any significant sponsors.

    They win most major markets against the “conservative” giants of O’Reilly, Savage, etc.

    In a couple of markets they are the most profitable stations they have (Portland being chief amongst them).

    And, despite all that, what does it matter? The right and the left skew information, we both know it. The truth is somewhere in between. You find that middle by listening to BOTH sides.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg View Post
    "U da poster" 1968 ...
    I'll check your links from my home PC later.

    Here is Ron Paul's statement on that report:

    January 8, 2008 5:28 am EST
    ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – In response to an article published by The New Republic, Ron Paul issued the following statement:
    “The quotations in The New Republic article are not mine and do not represent what I believe or have ever believed. I have never uttered such words and denounce such small-minded thoughts.
    “In fact, I have always agreed with Martin Luther King, Jr. that we should only be concerned with the content of a person's character, not the color of their skin. As I stated on the floor of the U.S. House on April 20, 1999: ‘I rise in great respect for the courage and high ideals of Rosa Parks who stood steadfastly for the rights of individuals against unjust laws and oppressive governmental policies.’
    “This story is old news and has been rehashed for over a decade. It's once again being resurrected for obvious political reasons on the day of the New Hampshire primary.
    “When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed to the product. For over a decade, I have publically taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name.”
    From http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewr...es/018418.html

    "Pimply- Faced Youth" Slanders Ron Paul on Tucker Carlson Show
    Posted by Thomas DiLorenzo at January 8, 2008 01:11 PM
    An emailer informed me this morning that a young kid whom he called a "grossly uneducated, pimply-faced youth" slandered both Ron Paul and myself on the Tucker Carlson show last night. The pimply-faced youth (PFY) is one Jamie Kirchick, who writes for the left-wing, pro-war New Republic magazine. In the YouTube video of the conversation the PFY asserts over and over that Ron Paul is a "racist." When Carlson asks him if he ever heard Ron make a racist remark he says "No." But then, with a Gotcha! look on his face, the PFY announces: "BUT," he DID attend a conference on secession in 1995!! Aha! Gotcha!
    This ignorant little kid posing as a "journalist" then informed everyone that the conference was sponsored by a "neo-Confederate" group and that Ron Paul speaks to "the neo-Confederate community," whatever that is, "in code language. (I knew that Ron was in touch with the Martian community, and with the residents of the planet Remulak, home of the supposedly "fictional" Coneheads of Saturday Night Live fame, but not the "Neo-Confederate Community" as well).
    Well, I was at that secession conference and presented a paper there. It was sponsored by the Mises Institute, which has nothing to do with Confederates, neo or otherwise, as anyone who surveyed the Institute's programs on its web site (www.mises.org) would know. The PFY did not bother because he is only interested in slandering Ron Paul, not in being a serious journalist.
    My paper was about the Northern secessionist tradition prior to the War between the States, including the Hartford, Ct. secession convention of 1814, and the secession movements of the mid-Atlantic states that existed prior to the war (see the book, The Secession Movement in the Middle States by William Wright). The famous abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison was a Northern secessionist whose credo was "No Covenant with Death," the "covenant" being the U.S. Constitition, and "death" being slavery. Other papers had to do with the Quebec secession movement, European secession movements, federalism in general, how the U.S. was created by a war of secession from the British empire, and even "How to Secede in Business" by substituting arbitration for litigation.
    But don't take my word for it. The proceedings of the conference, which the PFY is obviously ignorant of, were published as a book: Secession, State and Liberty, edited by Dr. David Gordon, whose Ph.D. from UCLA is in the field of intellectual history. It includes essays by scholars and professors from Emory University, Florida State University, UNLV, University of Montreal, University of South Carolina, and even a lawyer from Buffalo, New York. It was published a few years after the Soviet empire imploded as the result of eleven separate acts of peaceful secession, which made it especially relevant to social scientists.
    In fact, secession remains a lively topic of academic discourse, something that the PFY is obviously unfamiliar with. A few weeks ago a secession conference sponsored by the National Endowment for the Humanities was held in Chrleston, South Carolina, featuring some thirty historians and legal scholars. In little Jamie Kirchick's empty mind, the NEH must necessarily be a hotbed of pro-slavery sentiment. (A friend in academe tells me that the participants in this conference spanned the ideological spectrum from left/liberal to Marxist).
    Only an ignorant conspiracy theorist like Jamie Kirchick would assume that anyone who studies secession in a scholarly way is necessarily some kind of KKK-sympathizing kook. He knows that Ron Paul will not sue him for defamation because he is a public figure. I, however, am not a public figure.

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    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Yeah, Right. That's why they can't get enough funding to run the program or any significant sponsors.
    I know that in Phoenix the Air America station was killing the competition in the ratings. Then one of the right-wing Christian Broadcasting Companies bought up that station in a package deal with a couple of other stations. They immediately kicked out Air America even though it was profitable AND beating the competition.

    I know that for a fact because I was there at the time. I have since heard of similar things happening in other markets.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Machol View Post
    I know that in Phoenix the Air America station was killing the competition in the ratings. Then one of the right-wing Christian Broadcasting Companies bought up that station in a package deal with a couple of other stations. They immediately kicked out Air America even though it was profitable AND beating the competition.

    I know that for a fact because I was there at the time. I have since heard of similar things happening in other markets.
    And since that time Air America is on another network in Phoenix again and once again trouncing in the ratings.

    Even in conservative cities such as Phoenix and San Diego, Air America does exceedingly well.
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    Son:
    Other than Michael Savage there ain't nuthin conservative west of Texas.

    Anybody notice the politcal significance of the red and blue stripes on this poll?
    Last edited by chip anderson; 01-08-2008 at 11:34 PM. Reason: It's late, I'm bored and have nothing else to do.

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