At Homer's request

**Jackie L** · 03-19-2001, 01:24 AM

Does Heaven exist and where does it exist? That is a good question. Before this post becomes too intense, I would like to share with you an e-mail I received recently. I will apologize for the length of the post. For the theologians among us, hang on. For the rest of us, food for thought.

"The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the
Internet:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.
I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the
specific laws and how to follow them:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing
odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim
the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?

c) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male
and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.
Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

d) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?

e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

f) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

g) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?

h) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

i) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops
in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary
that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to
stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private
family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am
confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that
God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
(name withheld)

**Homer** · 03-19-2001, 02:17 PM

Jackie, I'm sure this post will net quite a few smiles and even a few responses. The Dr. Laura may deserve it own thread but I hope you (we) get some responses to your first question.

On the Dr. Laura letter my response is a question also: "Why does the sun shine in the daytime when we don't really need it an not at night when we do?"

Nor can my question be answered because of faulty presuppositions.

Most often those who try to make fun of the Hebrew Law, as this person did with style and cleverness, come from the Christian position that the Law has been done away with as Paul seems to state in the New Testament.

The New Testament states:

1) That a woman should remain quiet in church, why are we not seeing this?

2) That women are not to have authority over men, why is this not evident in our Christian society?

3) That it is a disgrace for men to have long hair, why is this not taken as the gospel truth?

4) That the Law is good and right and holy, That Jesus did not come to abolish it and yet we spend hours arguing that it is abolished???

I say these things only to demonstrate how any written work can be taken out of context and made to say something else. If you haven't, you should try sometime to listen to or read what the fundamentalists Muslims do to the New Testament on this very same basis.

Thanks for sharing this letter, Jackie. I had not heard it before. It does make the point that literalism can be dangerous.

What was The Holy One actually trying to communicate to mankind through these writings and the Hebrew system? I think it is still open for debate.

**chip anderson** · 03-20-2001, 01:10 AM

My God is God! What's yours?

**BobV** · 03-20-2001, 01:41 AM

My God, Your God, Their God...where will it end??? Everyone has a right to believe in who or what they want to...just because my Christian faith doesn't preach like yours does, am I destined for Hell?

My ancestors come from Armenia, the first nation in the world to adopt Christianity at around 300 A.D. Armenia is the rightful home of Mt. Ararat, supposedly the resting place of Noah's Ark. There is also an Armenian quarter in Jerusalem where a piece of the Cross is entombed in one of our churches.

The ancient Egyptians had many Gods...The American Indians had many Gods...Hindus, the same.

My question to you is, who is right and who is wrong? If you believe, you are right...if you don't, you are wrong.

It comes down to this...we are all right for what we believe in, nobody will ever be wrong for what they believe in except for those who do not believe in what your beliefs are.

I believe I will end this right here.

Bob Vartanian

**Homer** · 03-20-2001, 02:54 PM

Good to see your name again, Bob. This is Richard that ustabe a Kansan.

I believe that the most import thing is that we believe in what we believe in and then I believe we will end up where we believe we want to end up, however we must allow for the possibility that our belief and the reality may not exactly exactly match.

If you believe that, then you have evolved to a higher state of faith than I have.

What I have trouble with is, the impression that some aggressive believers portray; "We know and your don't. If you will confess that you know what we know then we will let you into our club of exclusive believers that really knows what is right and we will all skip down the yellow brick road to heaven, paradise, nirvana or a higher state of consciousness together"

**Pete Hanlin** · 03-20-2001, 05:36 PM

That seems like a pretty cynical view (though come to think of it, I've met groups and individuals who do seem to think that way)...

Kierkegaard (sp?) said everyone takes a "leap of faith" at one point or another. I guess your point is that we shouldn't insist that others jump with us! Good point.

It just seems to me that our culture (secular and religious) seems to be in love with relativism and ambiguity. In other words, anything absolute scares us to death. I guess another good question would be "are there any absolutes?"

Pete

**shanbaum** · 03-20-2001, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Pete Hanlin:
I guess another good question would be "are there any absolutes?"

Pete

Yes, there are no absolutes.

**Steve Machol** · 03-20-2001, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by shanbaum:
Yes, there are no absolutes.

Shouldn't that be:

"Yes, there are absolutely no absolutes." :D

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OptiBoard Administrator

[This message has been edited by Steve Machol (edited 03-20-2001).]

**EyeManFla** · 03-20-2001, 08:51 PM

Robert Protsky said it best in "Rudy":

There are two great truths in this world:

There is a God......and I'm not him!

**Homer** · 03-20-2001, 11:00 PM

Hey Pete, relatively speaking, I think you are absolutely correct.

I guess the possibility exists that there are absolutes, absolutely, but I believe that it is absolutely possible that those who are absolutely sure they are absolutely correct could be absolutely wrong. .... then again I'm not absolutely positive about that either.

Nevertheless I believe .... well you wouldn't really believe me if I told you.

[This message has been edited by Homer (edited 03-20-2001).]

**Pete Hanlin** · 03-22-2001, 12:18 PM

I think it was Socrates who thought his greatest wisdom was to be found in his knowledge of what he didn't know... He'd probably enjoy this string! Then again, the whole computer thing would probably have thrown him for a loop.

In the immortal words of Kansas, "all we are is dust in the wind."

Pete "absolutely confused" Hanlin

**Homer** · 03-22-2001, 05:31 PM

Now that we have firmly established the absolute that there is much we don't know, we can enjoy speculating about the original question.

When my kids were in school I used to ask them how is it was that most people when they think about or would motion in the direction of heaven, they would point or think UP and if asked the same question while standing in China would give the same answer but be pointing the oposite direction - or if we were asked the question a noon and then a midnight would also be pointing opposite directions.

Of course this is a childish question but it does bring into question our concept of heaven as a specific, definable place. Could it be either be in or minds or is it more about the new heavens (sky/atmosphere)
and the new earth where righteousnes and justice dwell?

**BobV** · 03-24-2001, 01:49 AM

Richard,

How are things in beautiful Estes Park??? Haven't talked to you in a long time!!!

Heck of a series of threads you stirred up. I like to look at it as " I'll come over to your side if it looks rosier than my side."

What most fervent "religious" people try to do is convert you to their faith. I have been to many churches and synogogues in my life and believe me, I didn't like what I saw.

Organized religion is run more like a business than a practicing of faith. Video studios, high tech buildings, choreographed musical interludes...is this what Christ was all about? Alcoholic clergy, ministers committing adultery, (and priests, and rabbis), pedophiles in the church...is this what "religion" means today? Oh, the pressures that they must carry to do the Lord's work.

Interpretations of the Bible within the same faith don't jibe. Whom are you supposed to believe when two pastors can't agree with what they are teaching?

For me, the first time I saw Heaven was on my honeymoon...yes, I know you are all thinking the obvious and I walked into this one...but, we honeymooned in Colorado and I thought "this is God's country", and this is from an agnostic!!!

One person's vision of Heaven may be animate, another's may be inanimate. Some may also value Heaven as being how much personal wealth they may have. Or it may Just be other-worldly.

Hiking through various parts of Rocky Mt. National Park brought me to the other world...who else could have produced the splendor that you see? The Big Thompson Canyon...remove the homes that line the roadway (God forbid, no more floods), and you have true beauty. To me, that is Heaven. And at this point in time, IT IS on earth.

Bob V.

**chip anderson** · 03-24-2001, 09:44 AM

Why do Christians (and yes, I claim to be one) need the carrot (heaven/eternal life) ask yourself would you follow God just for having created the world (which I think was quite enough for him to do for me [please no big bang theories now])? Do we really need a reward/punishment to make us behave?

Just something to ponder.

Chip

**Jackie L** · 03-24-2001, 02:58 PM

I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and choose to live a Christian life because it makes passing through life a more pleasant journey. I just wish others (murderers, thieves and liars) choose the same path. THAT would make living on earth, like heaven on earth.

Jackie O

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Still a Maina for now

**Blake** · 03-24-2001, 11:34 PM

For me, eternal life started the day I decided to follow Jesus. So it's not some "dangling carrot" to get me to behave - it's a relationship with God that helps me to make it through the day! If God didn't want a relationship with me (thus no heaven/eternal life to look forward to), what would be the point of following His rules, except to avoid the lightning bolts? :-) But then, if God didn't want a relationship with us, why not just make us like a bunch of robots without the ability to disobey?

By the way, I lived in Colorado for about 1 1/2 years. Besides Switzerland, it's some of the most beautiful land I've ever seen. It's truly a work of art!

Blake

**Homer** · 03-26-2001, 12:18 PM

My Webster's states that "eternal" means, without beginning or end. If we apply that meaning to those who claim to have eternal life, are we saying that in addition to never dieing they were also never born??? (remember if it has a begining it can be a very long time but not eternal!) That they have always existed like The Creator?

Just at the definition of opticianry is clouded by word meanings and emotional attachments to those words, for the same reason, religion is divided, confused and not likely to to get together in the near future; Not even those who claim to be "Christian"!

Hmmmmmmm?

**Pete Hanlin** · 03-26-2001, 04:46 PM

Just to be argumentative, in my dictionary "eternal" is alternatively defined as "perpetual." The definition of "perpetual" being "ongoing, without end." Thus, "eternal life" simply means "life without end" (irrespective of when it may have begun). However, even if you're arguing the "never born" point, there is a passage that states that God knows us before we are formed... hmmmm?

Sadly enough, however, the point you are trying to make (that even people within the same basic religion have trouble agreeing on things as fundamental (pun intended) as the descriptive terms associated with their religion.

Pete "no quotes" Hanlin ;)

**Blake** · 03-26-2001, 08:24 PM

Eternity, at least as I understand it, exists outside of time. If God created all things, that includes time, so God must be outside the realm of time (in eternity). We use terms like "the beginning of time" and "the end of time" because time moves in a linear fashion, but eternity does not. If, when we die, we go to be with God, we too will live in eternity (heaven). Our "eternal life" will not be measured by its beginning or end, since those terms only have meaning when in the framework of time.
Now to make it even more confusing - I'm sticking to what I said in my last post - that eternal life for me began when I accepted Jesus. But that's okay, since I'm still livin' the linear life!
Anyway, that's just my understanding of it all...

Blake

**Homer** · 03-27-2001, 11:41 AM

Good comments, "no quote" Pete - well except for the "quote" from the dictionary - I guess that's acceptable ... since I set a precedent. The word perpetual says it is something that continues for ever but does not necessarily assume a beginning. Is God perpetual?

Blake, are you saying that you realized in time that you were really an eternal being, kinda ... godlike?

**Blake** · 03-27-2001, 01:41 PM

The bible does say we are created in the image of God. While our bodies are temporal, our souls are eternal. But just as eternal life comes from being in a right relationship with God, eternal death comes from rejecting Him.
I know it seems like a paradox to say that eternal life begins at a point in time. But then, Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at the same time - go figure!

Blake

**Homer** · 03-27-2001, 05:51 PM

So, Blake, those poor suckers who just don't get it will have to spend forever, perpetually, eternally burning up?
The God who loves mankind would do this?

You have scientific proof of this Jesus being 100% man and 100% god? Or is this just your belief or speculation?

**Night Train** · 03-28-2001, 12:07 AM

Well, as for the 100% God, I have always thought of it as "when you eliminate all the other possibilities...whatever remains must be true". As for 100% Man....The only test I can think of is that He died as all men do.

As I have been reading this thread, I am struck by some of the comments that imply that we all have to just believe whatever we want and then, in that belief, do it full tilt. Its all relative. Something just doesn't sound good to me here. These opinions are being formed out of our limited views and experiences. There has to be an absolute Truth. There has to be something bigger than ourselves to be able to look to. Something with more experience, more knowledge, more wisdom, more truth. A LENSE through which we all must look. For me that LENSE is the Bible. Its a pretty amazing book. And thats an understatement.

Night Train

**Blake** · 03-28-2001, 12:25 AM

Homer,
If those "poor suckers" don't accept God's gift of salvation, then yes, they will spend eternity in hell. It's not God's fault - He provided a way out. He loves us and wants us to choose Him, but if we don't, we have to face the consequences. Now this is only my (and many others')interpretation of scripture - my believing it doesn't make it right any more than someone else [/I]not[/I] believing it makes it wrong.
I'm not sure just how one would go about proving that Jesus was both human and divine. But even if that possibility is out there, I was just stating my belief, again based on my understanding of the Bible.

Blake