Or we could look at it this way......
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N20375741.htm
Or we could look at it this way......
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N20375741.htm
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
I am not saying our troops need to take avoidable risks. I am saying this collateral damage is always regrettable and that comparisons with Hitler et al are inflammatory.Originally Posted by BobV
Using Hitler et al to make an example is inflammatory? The truth speaks for itself. Did these people or did they not kill innocent women and children? Did they or did they not kill them for either pleasure or genocide?
If you are equating the killing of civilians in Iraq with the extermination camps of Nazi Germany or the ruthless killings of Idi Amin or Hussein, I will say it's time to cut the strings that make you move.
Bob V.
Just to make sure that all are on the same page and they may very well be but....BobV is referring to the Middle Eastern insurgents not the US troops here as his comparison guild. I will support Bob's assertion however since it's known that many children in these regions are taught from the time they are old enough to hate us and that the only good American is a dead American. Even in Mogadishu, Vietnam, Bosnia, etc. women and children were packing AK's and other hardware and shooting at and blowing up American troops. Because of the cultural differences I'm afraid that women and children are not immune in this since they are as likely to be shooting at us as a man between the ages of 18 to 35 years of age.
Case in point, my daughters (I like saying that plurally ;) and keep in mind I would NEVER put them in this position but...If someone were to come into this country with any type of force and I felt threatened I could tell my daughters that these were very bad people and we had to defend ourselves or be hurt or killed. They would listen to me and defend themselves at all costs with or without justification because they would trust me to make the right decisions. A military would have to find and kill my daughters because they are very accurate shooters and could take them out from very long distances. In short they could be very deadly if armed and in a situation like that...but they're still children. This is what is being faced by our military right now in Iraq. This is the reality, like it or not. These kids don't know any different or any better because it's their parents job to teach them and the parents aren't doing a very good job of teaching them otherwise.
Jana,
"Or we could look at it this way......
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N20375741.htm"
Actually I believe it is Rueters that is looking at this in that manner, as do many on the left, since the beginning of all this. They are drawing parallels where none exist but with just a little paint here and a little plaster there you can make anything look like what you want it to.
To give you an idea in the opposite direction you can look at it this way. Vietnam was a "police Action" not a war. Iraq is a war. In Vietnam we were trying to support a dictator that would (we hoped) keep diplomatic relations open with us and ward off Communism. In Iraq we deposed a regime hell bent on their neighbors as well as our destruction. Vietnam is in a completely different geographic location than Iraq. Vietnam has a cmpletely different landscape than Iraq. Vietnamese and Iraqi's are two completely different nationalities. In Vietnam the warring faction was the Khmer Rouge supported by communists. In Iraq the warring faction is a network of terrorists funded and support by "no one" evidently at least not until we catch the supporters red handed at which point they tend to fess up and lose everything that we have access to. Rueters can make parallels in support of a Vietnam fiasco in Iraq and I can make parallels debunking their parallels. So goes the way of journalism. Sad really.
Take care folks,
Darris C.
Just a short one here...you hit it right on.
I could also use the Turks as an example here. All four of my grandparents came to this country in 1915 to escape the genocide the Turks were perpetrating on the Armenians, a Christian people surrounded by Muslims. My grandmother snapped in her later years as she remembered seeing family members having their heads lopped off while running from the Turks who were riding horses. Those b******s didn't give a rat's *** whether it was an adult or child they were murdering.
Don't be in a hurry to defend a group that is, as Darris puts it, hell bent on destroying us. You don't know what power they yield. And there is nothing on this earth as frightening as seeing a loved one relive the horrors of genocide. Nothing.
Bob Vartanian
I hate to say this as a person because nobody would never want to do this but the only way to save this country(Iraq) is a nuclear bomb.We will never capture all these arabs.They have no life and live in dirt floored homes.They dont care to live another day.They dont even care about there own rebuilding.So really now that we are there we should treat it as a war and not as a peace keeping effort,because it will never work.Hopefully we will be alot more agressive in the months to come.Stand by your country!There is no other like it and never will be!Also Jana please get out of your little peace world.There are too many people like you that think if we sit and do nothing everthing will be ok.Maybe if it was in your back yard it would be different.
Last edited by Steve Machol; 05-21-2004 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Removed attempt to get past censor filters
911 that is.Remember it?
to the shameless behavior club here at Optiboard. Click on the purple square to see.
Bob V.
OK enough of this. You are the person who brought up Hitler et al. Re-read the thread. Show me where I equated this with Iraq. If you want to shoot your mouth off go ahead, but do not put words in my mouth. Clear?
Then there is the point of view expressed by Golda Meira, when asked if she could forgive her enemies, the Arabs. Her reply: "I can perhaps forgive them for killing our children; I cannot forgive them for making us kill their children". This of course was a septuagenarian who took up the role of prime minister of Israel at a time of enormous peril, after a harrowing stint as defense minister. Her "backyard" was the definition of terrorism and I'm thinking she probably knew a tad bit about the price of war (and peace).
For myself, I will strive to emulate this lady and look at the price of war and grieve for the victims and the soldiers who have to do our dirty work. Besides, I have always felt that bravado is so cheesy.
Tberr,Also Jana please get out of your little peace world.There are too many people like you that think if we sit and do nothing everthing will be ok.Maybe if it was in your back yard it would be different.
It is in MY BACKYARD! I am paying for the cost of this war and I am also stuck with the emotional aspect of our soilders being killed and innocent Iraqi's being slaughtered! So, please DON'T TELL ME TO LEAVE MY LITTLE PEACE WORLD! I never once mentioned that we should sit there and DO NOTHING. If you want to know what I think we should have done, ask me... don't assume!
And 9/11? No direct correlation between the two, never been proven.
P.S Where's OSAMA? And I believe that Afganistan could use a little more help "rebuilding" and they would be GREATFUL!
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
I guess I'll prepare myself for Steve to close this thread too.
chm, go ahead, take your ball and go home. If you can't handle the opposition, just give up.
I brought up Hitler to show that WE, as AMERICANS, have not matched the insensitivities nor the TRUE RUTHLESSNESS that he brought forward.
But in this case, I hope that changes.
And, no apologies for what I say. I believe in what I say and will stand up for myself just like you do.
But, if you want to continue to make snide comments, such as your "move your lips" comment, I will say this to you...grow up and get a life.
I hope I get to red soon so I can be bounced off the board.:)
Bob Vartanian
Hi All:
In war, many unpleasant things happen to both the good and bad. Under the fog of battle or the stress of the moment, the laws of unintended consequences take over. As a former helicopter pilot, I can attest to the fact that it’s difficult to determine the true intent of gunfire that comes in your general direction. In short, celebratory tracers closely resemble ones with hostile intent. Things become even more complicated if your adversary is firing at you from a group of non-combatants since airborne weapons tend to attack areas rather than specific targets.
Americans tend to assume that all cultures and peoples view the world through one lens and that if we are incapable of committing certain acts, the same is true for others. The last time I was shot down, we were in a scrap with some bad guys who had killed a woman and three kids a few days earlier because someone in the village stole a ballpoint pen from one of their members. This was not a mistake that resulted in the deaths of innocents; rather, it was a deliberate act.
While in Vietnam I can never recall U.S. troops, in my presence, deliberately targeting civilians. The opposite was the rule. Now, many years later, I cannot bring myself to believe that Americans would purposely attack a wedding party for no other reason than to kill a few women and kids. There is more to this story.
Roy
Thanks for pointing that out. I've always been a sucker for pithy insight.
Roy,
Thank you for your insight. I believe that the Americans would never deliberately target a wedding party, what I am saying is that it is criminal negligence on their part. Regardless of what they "thought" might be there, 14 women and 11 children is too many to die off a hunch.
I came across this link that I thought was quite interesting.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/arab_culture_and_identity/30303
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
Bob, if you are purposely trying to get kicked off the Board, just let me know. There's no need to waste anyone's time. The truth is I do not want trolls posting on this board who's purpose is to try and get kicked off. If you are unable or unwilling to be a positiive contributor to OptiBoard, then perhaps you should take your ball and go home.
OptiBoard Administrator
----
OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.
"I believe that the Americans would never deliberately target a wedding party, what I am saying is that it is criminal negligence on their part. Regardless of what they "thought" might be there, 14 women and 11 children is too many to die off a hunch."
You don't believe that Americans would deliberately target innocents but then you condenm them based on no evidence other than a very sketchy report that doesn't add up? That's the same as saying "I don't believe they would do that, but they did it!"
Roy,
Great annalogy of cultural differences and life experiences. You are a great American. One thing I will add is that we, as Americans, have become so sensitive as to being unable to accept the inevitables and realities of war. We should be able to fire a single bullet into a crowd and only hit the bad guy. Tough to do when the bad guy is wearing innocent people as a bullet proof vest. The bad guys don't care, we do care and the bad guys know that and play on it. It's effective because of the cultural differences spoken of. We aren't them and they aren't us.
With that said I think I will bid you and everyone else farewell. When the administrator starts accusing long time posters as being trolls it's time to vacate the premises. I hope you all fare well in life and I will think of you often.
Darris C.
Darris, I was responding to BobV's comment, specifically:
Taking him at face value he states his purpose is to get 'bounced off the board'. I had a right and an obligation to respond to this. This was in no way directed at you and there is no need to make more out of this than is warranted.
OptiBoard Administrator
----
OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.
Roy your comments are interesting. It's always good to hear from someone with actual bona fides. Have you ever read "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" by Thomas Friedman? It talks about the clash of the American, secular, technology, free-market world view with that of non-western world. It's very interesting and gives a good understanding of the context of the current Iraqi situation and globalization in general.
It's been a nice ride for the past four years. Unfortunately, there are some personality clashes here. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to allow me to bow out.
As of this post, I no longer will consider myself a member of Optiboard.
I wish all of you the best.
Bob Vartanian
Is this for real? I cannot believe that this is happening, I have been reading Optiboard for 4 years and have always enjoyed the debates. When did it start getting to a point when people quit and start taking pot-shots at each other?
Jana Lewis
ABOC , NCLE
A fine quotation is a diamond on the finger of a man of wit, and a pebble in the hand of a fool.
Joseph Roux
Such a fuss.
I am off for a few days, hoping to catch some sun (HA!) and catch up on my reading. Have a nice weekend kiddies!!!
I wasn't sure whether to take his comment at face value or not when I read it... It saddens me to see Bob V and Darris gone.Taking him at face value he states his purpose is to get 'bounced off the board'. I had a right and an obligation to respond to this. This was in no way directed at you and there is no need to make more out of this than is warranted.
And Steve, you did infer he was a Troll. That is name calling (albiet not agressive and mean) and hence according to the rule quoted to me so many times, you should edit yourself.
I feel a little like I have stepped into an alternate universe. It is very obvious that we are all passionate people who have strong beliefs. I think we could ALL agree that one of the gifts of being free is being able to state our opinions-some of the people posting in this thread have either fought themselves for that right or watched their loved one leave to do it. It saddens me to watch people who I enjoy either agreeing or disagreeing with decide to move on. I wish it hadn't come to this.
Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.
If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail
Karen,
As you can see here intellectual arguments are a bit on the scarce side, and there are those that get defensive without giving good reasons or even internet links that make any sense at all.
I have reaserched the pasts of some of these optiboard moderators (they are all over the boards and internet), and with the exception of Mr. Hanlin, they all seem to be liberal, some going back as "activists" for years. Its a free country and in that respect thank God for liberals and their right to voice their opinions. It would seem here that the sensitivity and inability to think outside one's own box predominates. In other words tolerance is a prescribed virtue, but not practiced for those that are articulate in their opposing opinions.
I suppose thats why CHM is on a "distingushed path" and I am an "unknown quantity."
Well, I have tried to be professional and decent over the last months, and will continue to do so.
Regards,
mrba
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