Anyone else think that progressive lenses are useless???

[carriew]

First a single vision lense set a precise focal length will give the patient better optics and you less problems. But can you imagine trying to juggle 3+ pairs around all day? It sounds like you need to educate your patients more, explain how a PAL works and the basic design, then give them the option of multiple single vision pairs of glasses. I am guessing your patients will prefer just 1 pair with some distortion. As for trouble shooting patient problems, I don't mind, it keeps the optician a skilled member of the medical field and presents the patient with a reason on why they still need us.

[NCspecs]

*grabs popcorn, sits back, watches the show*

I saw this coming a few days ago after the guy's first post. Only a matter of time before he goes the way of Chip Anderson...

[Fezz]

Anyone else think that progressive lenses are useless???


I don't know, but I am beginning to think that this thread is useless!

[Judy Canty]

But how else would we prove how smart we are to each other?

[Judy Canty]

*grabs popcorn, sits back, watches the show*

I saw this coming a few days ago after the guy's first post. Only a matter of time before he goes the way of Chip Anderson...

Kinda like watching a cat "play" with a mouse.

[Uncle Fester]

I love being an Optician, ---

No you don't.

Maybe at some point you did but it sounds like you are burnt out and should re assess your career choice.

There's also nothing stopping you from opening your own single vision only place and see how it goes. Warby Parker is doing that right now.

[icmor]

We have our lab supply us with an annual report as to our remakes. And it has been very consistent that our non-adapts to progressives are less than 1%. You may need better training in fitting and dispensing progressives. 10% seems to be way out of line for progressive issues. I would be curious to know what your total percentage of all remakes are for all glasses dispensed in your office. The average total is between 5%-10% for most dispensing offices.

[tx11]

If you are having 10% remakes then it sound like measurements are incorrect. The troubleshooting and remake should solve the problem. If remakes are not the issue but actual 10 % non-adapts then you may want to try a different PAL Mfg or it is just a weird glitch in you demographic and will go away as more clients purchase PALs. ALSO realistic expectations must be explained to the consumer prior to the purchase and detailed training on how to use the lens upon dispensing.

[Eyedentity3]

I am an optician not a rep, 10% is way to high. I have fired people that refuse to learn the product and physics behind lenses. Like 1960 said opticanary is a commitment and that includes the education that goes along with it. Simply saying PAL's are a waste of money with that 10% is actually low comment shows that there are other problems. 2%-4% is an expected non adapt, 5% and above I start asking questions. All that said, I think you are simply trying to get a rise out of us as a joke, because if you really are a well trained optician you would understand the reason behind PAL's and why some range from 100$ to over a grand.

[Optician1960]

1234: At the start of this thread, we tried to ask a few questions to see how you have come to this conclusion, if you have ever worn a PAL (still not sure we know) and how we can help you. Somehow we have burrowed into a not so nice conversation. If you are interested in a discussion of how to get it right more often, where to find education and how to find opticians to interact with who are not a part of the hundreds all of whom have the same complaint, please message me...

[MakeOptics]

I find that a lot of my non-adapts disappear when I set expectations during Rx interpretation. Any patient with a zero or near zero Rx in any zone is going to focus on the area or clear vision that they naturally posses instead of the areas that I can clear up with a PAL. I gauge motivation and discuss cosmetics as well as functional use of the glasses for all focal lengths over any one particular zone. Sometimes a PAL just isn't going to suit every situation in life that a patient is experiencing and that's OK, the PAL is going to be their primary most used device in certain cases so it just needs to be most functional for all focal points. From there sometimes we need an intermediate pair, or dedicated distance and/or reading pair.

I have a Swiss army knife / kitchen knife speech I give all my pal wearers. If they are going to use their Swiss army knife in a kitchen they better not be looking for a successful experience and vice versa if they are going to go camping with a kitchen knife it's going to be a dicey trip. The non-adapts that do end up coming back are usually more reasonable because they tried the PAL to see if they would work for their particular circumstance and they are either going to get a more task specific pair to accomplish the original visual task that often is the common complaint when presenting, or they are finding that they may have underestimated the compromise.

In the future we will always revisit a PAL if their visual tasks have changed and or their presbyopia has gotten worst.

In a retail environment, all bets are off explain to them that their prescription is a cotra indication to a PAL according to your company and turn it into a two pair sale. Or learn to pass these clients off to the next guy and have their numbers take a hit.

It's a lot more difficult to an optician in a business environment especially a high brow optician. I work private practice now but remember the days of working two retail part timers, the shenanigans if you were a fly on the wall you would be amazed. I once was offered a management position which I turned down so they gave it to the office idiot. The office idiot and me were always at odds so he immediately fired me over the phone, then the higher ups offered me his position at the exit interview and I could go out and fire him on the spot. This all happened in a span of 4 days.

I had another consulting job where the owner of a franchise constantly tried to renegotiate my rate and ended up yelling and calling me worthless a few times, but always came calling in an emergency to fix equipment. Similar to a PAL for a low Rx patient she never looked at the savings by having me repair her equipment she always looked at an optician making more money then her hourly, just couldn't come to grips with it. The corporate culture has taught her that people are exploitable and disposable. The current economic environment reinforces that, keep your nose to the grind and look for opportunities to get out of the retail environment if at all possible or just learn to be callous about making a sale.

[Optician1234]

First a single vision lense set a precise focal length will give the patient better optics and you less problems. But can you imagine trying to juggle 3+ pairs around all day? It sounds like you need to educate your patients more, explain how a PAL works and the basic design, then give them the option of multiple single vision pairs of glasses. I am guessing your patients will prefer just 1 pair with some distortion. As for trouble shooting patient problems, I don't mind, it keeps the optician a skilled member of the medical field and presents the patient with a reason on why they still need us.

Trouble shooting = losing money

Since opticians in America are USUALLY 70% salesman 30% optician (the reason being we basically have no standards to giving someone the label "optician") , the trouble shooting takes away time which takes away money.... Retail optical (the KINGS of the optical field) would LOVE for patients to pick up glasses and ONLY come back to purchase additional pairs... Remakes, re-do's for whatever reason are HATED because they lose money in the end....

Don't worry about optical field disappearing along with opticians... corrective lenses have been in existence for centuries and will not be going away anytime soon...

[Optician1234]

I find that a lot of my non-adapts disappear when I set expectations during Rx interpretation. Any patient with a zero or near zero Rx in any zone is going to focus on the area or clear vision that they naturally posses instead of the areas that I can clear up with a PAL. I gauge motivation and discuss cosmetics as well as functional use of the glasses for all focal lengths over any one particular zone. Sometimes a PAL just isn't going to suit every situation in life that a patient is experiencing and that's OK, the PAL is going to be their primary most used device in certain cases so it just needs to be most functional for all focal points. From there sometimes we need an intermediate pair, or dedicated distance and/or reading pair.

I have a Swiss army knife / kitchen knife speech I give all my pal wearers. If they are going to use their Swiss army knife in a kitchen they better not be looking for a successful experience and vice versa if they are going to go camping with a kitchen knife it's going to be a dicey trip. The non-adapts that do end up coming back are usually more reasonable because they tried the PAL to see if they would work for their particular circumstance and they are either going to get a more task specific pair to accomplish the original visual task that often is the common complaint when presenting, or they are finding that they may have underestimated the compromise.

In the future we will always revisit a PAL if their visual tasks have changed and or their presbyopia has gotten worst.

In a retail environment, all bets are off explain to them that their prescription is a cotra indication to a PAL according to your company and turn it into a two pair sale. Or learn to pass these clients off to the next guy and have their numbers take a hit.

It's a lot more difficult to an optician in a business environment especially a high brow optician. I work private practice now but remember the days of working two retail part timers, the shenanigans if you were a fly on the wall you would be amazed. I once was offered a management position which I turned down so they gave it to the office idiot. The office idiot and me were always at odds so he immediately fired me over the phone, then the higher ups offered me his position at the exit interview and I could go out and fire him on the spot. This all happened in a span of 4 days.

I had another consulting job where the owner of a franchise constantly tried to renegotiate my rate and ended up yelling and calling me worthless a few times, but always came calling in an emergency to fix equipment. Similar to a PAL for a low Rx patient she never looked at the savings by having me repair her equipment she always looked at an optician making more money then her hourly, just couldn't come to grips with it. The corporate culture has taught her that people are exploitable and disposable. The current economic environment reinforces that, keep your nose to the grind and look for opportunities to get out of the retail environment if at all possible or just learn to be callous about making a sale.

That Swiss-army knife analogy seems pretty good. But if I explain ALL the cons of the PAL, I would probably get fired, don't you agree?

It would go something like this: "Sir/mam , a PAL is a general purpose lens with the main objective of having you LOOK YOUNGER. The corridor of your intermediate is not that much bigger than a key hole so you might see that it is a burden to read a book with them for a long period of time. There is also A LOT of head movement with PAL's which might give you neck strain. No matter what you have been brain-washed to think, ALL PROGRESSIVES ARE NOT as clear on parts of temporal and nasal insides of the lens. It does take some time to get used to as you will see some objects might change shape with the given distortion that comes with ALL PAL's on the planet earth. You can pay 10000000 dollars for the best progressive, but you will always experience some sort of what I just said."

[Optician1234]

1234: At the start of this thread, we tried to ask a few questions to see how you have come to this conclusion, if you have ever worn a PAL (still not sure we know) and how we can help you. Somehow we have burrowed into a not so nice conversation. If you are interested in a discussion of how to get it right more often, where to find education and how to find opticians to interact with who are not a part of the hundreds all of whom have the same complaint, please message me...

Where is this "not so nice" occurring?

[Judy Canty]

That Swiss-army knife analogy seems pretty good. But if I explain ALL the cons of the PAL, I would probably get fired, don't you agree?

It would go something like this: "Sir/mam , a PAL is a general purpose lens with the main objective of having you LOOK YOUNGER. The corridor of your intermediate is not that much bigger than a key hole so you might see that it is a burden to read a book with them for a long period of time. There is also A LOT of head movement with PAL's which might give you neck strain. No matter what you have been brain-washed to think, ALL PROGRESSIVES ARE NOT as clear on parts of temporal and nasal insides of the lens. It does take some time to get used to as you will see some objects might change shape with the given distortion that comes with ALL PAL's on the planet earth. You can pay 10000000 dollars for the best progressive, but you will always experience some sort of what I just said."

Where on Earth did you get your training?

[Steve Machol]

I think the OP is pretty much alone in feeling that PALs are 'useless'. PALs have been around for a long time and have been very successful for patients when the Optician knows what they are doing. If not, they would have died off a long time ago (SmartSeg anyone?)

I suspect this is either someone who is purposely trolling these forums for attention, or who simply needs a lot more training along with an attitude adjustment.

[Freebird]

I've told my patients for years that task-specific glasses will always trump any multifocal. That is, if a person spends 4+ hours doing nothing but sewing/woodworking/computer/reading/etc, a pair of SV lenses at that precise focal length will work better than a progressive or lined multifocal.

However, these patients usually wind up buying a pair of these SV lenses in addition to their progressives, which they will wear for the rest of their waking hours. Why? Because they have the ability to see at any focal range from their near to infinity. Those that can't wear progressives usually wind up being people who aren't willing to tolerate the nuances involved. These folks where I work make up probably 2% of those who buy progressives.

[MakeOptics]

That Swiss-army knife analogy seems pretty good. But if I explain ALL the cons of the PAL, I would probably get fired, don't you agree?

It would go something like this: "Sir/mam , a PAL is a general purpose lens with the main objective of having you LOOK YOUNGER. The corridor of your intermediate is not that much bigger than a key hole so you might see that it is a burden to read a book with them for a long period of time. There is also A LOT of head movement with PAL's which might give you neck strain. No matter what you have been brain-washed to think, ALL PROGRESSIVES ARE NOT as clear on parts of temporal and nasal insides of the lens. It does take some time to get used to as you will see some objects might change shape with the given distortion that comes with ALL PAL's on the planet earth. You can pay 10000000 dollars for the best progressive, but you will always experience some sort of what I just said."

You can phrase it better but yeah that's about it. Try this:

Sir/mam, we are going to put you into a progressive lens which is a hipper younger bifocal without any of those unsightly lines. If you have any specific task that you are focusing on for more than a few hours a day this is the time to get a task specific pair to take care of those needs as well, otherwise we'll make that second pair a sunglasses. Here are some frame options I think would work best and look great.

Second approach for the client with a low or zero zone Rx:

Sir/mam, I think a progressive lens will work great as your everyday pair. With your prescription you may find that even thought the distance/middle/close range is clearer without your glasses on, unless you are focused on a task in the distance/middle/close area you'll find it convenient to leave the glasses on rather than take them off. Plus they look just like a regular pair of glasses so no one has to know you are wearing bifocals. Here are a few frames that I think will work well and look great.

Third approach spiff out of your commission to the techs to give you a heads up on the possible dud clients and have a smoke break when they are ready for the fit. Cherry picking happens often in sales and everyone knows you want to focus your attention on the more profitable patients first and foremost.

The real fix is getting out of there I learned a while back that either you will sell your soul to succeed in that environment or you will move on to a more lax environment. You here it hear all the time don't take advice from those that have not walked in your shoes, I have worked retail opticals for a long time and realize that it is high pressure and more difficult then private practice by a long shot. Your resources are limited, the people around you are poorly trained, the higher ups will try to squeeze blood from a turnip, and your really only secure in your position as long as your sales keep increasing and you don't **** off the wrong person. Too much juggling.

[AngeHamm]

Why are we enabling this troll? Why has he not yet been banned?

[Steve Machol]

Why are we enabling this troll? Why has he not yet been banned?

Why ban someone just because of their opinion? I think it's much more effective to counter them publicly rather than silence them.

[MikeAurelius]

If the OP dislikes progressives sooooooo much, then why complain about them? Just don't sell them. Period. Dot. End of discussion. Blowing smoke out of your ears here is only making you look silly.

[Johns]

Troll or not, real or not, conversation is being stimulated.

My 2 cents: I have employees that successfully fit tons of progressives, and often don't even mention the word "line" when explaining the pros and cons of the lens. We all wear them, so how stupid would it be for us to be fitting lenses other than what we are happy with?
't

[AngeHamm]

Why ban someone just because of their opinion? I think it's much more effective to counter them publicly rather than silence them.

I don't know, maybe because of a repeated pattern of insults and verbal abuse???

[MakeOptics]

Troll or not, real or not, conversation is being stimulated.

My 2 cents: I have employees that successfully fit tons of progressives, and often don't even mention the word "line" when explaining the pros and cons of the lens. We all wear them, so how stupid would it be for us to be fitting lenses other than what we are happy with?
't

From post one I could immediately see the frustration in this OP's posts. The situation is real, sometimes you have to work in an environment where you sell sub par designs that are horribly produced by a sub par lab and you have to convince the lions share of your clients that this is what they need. This guy is putting food on the table for his family doing the same thing anyone else here is, I hear that frustration and John like you I see the conversation being stimulated.

The post reminds me of my wife sometimes telling me I am not looking for an answer I just want to vent and for you to listen. This thread has no fix or opinion that will be of any value just a frustrated fitter that needs to vent. Good luck.

[Happylady]

I doubt the OP is old enough to need progressives.

When I sell progressives I always go over what to expect. I never call them bifocals and I never use the word distortion. I tell people the sides of the lenses, especially the lower parts won't be as clear as the middle of the lens. I also tell people that for most people, even if you notice this, after a while you won't. The more you wear them the quicker you will be comfortable with them.

As as for selling sub par products- even older/cheaper designs work well for most people if fit correctly. Personally, I can't tell the difference between my Navigator Shorts and my Zeiss Individual or Varilux S 4D. And my add is 2.25 and I have a diopter of astigmatism. My overall rx isn't strong, however.