Sorry guys

[OCP]

Sorry for my wording and use of the "V" word in previous thread. Some times I get carrying away in my eagerness and this will not happens again. Sorry.

But I´m sad the thread was closed, because in my opinion, Panto and Vertex is very interesting points, that I personally like to hear more about from other sources.

First of all it must be clear, that Shamir are NOT supporting official, or unofficial my stance of Panto and Vertex. This is MY stance all alone.

To Newtop: About Vertex optimizing with a large nose or not. Your absolutely right about this. If you move the lens closer to the eye you will get a harder design and reverse. But what I claim is that this will only be a minor and none noticeable difference if you use 13 mm as reference. With 13 mm as reference you will mostly get 2-3 mm back or forward in changes and therefor not much design changings.

As you know for sure, you cant compare Auto II with Auto Plus. Auto II is a totally different complex design, where Auto Plus is more standard. Auto II has the overall power-, and design compensating, and the most important measure, the Faceform angle, which in my opinion is the absolutely most important measure because of the prismatic effect you get when the frame curves. The level of overall distortion is much lower in the Auto II as well.

I do not mean that Vertex and Panto are irrelevant, but these measures does not bring you noticeable differences when using default values instead. When using default values you still get power and design compensating.

We made a small study on 6 people in Denmark where we put on them on Auto II in same frame, power etc, but with different Vertex and panto. None of them can feel any difference, but all of them are very satisfied with both pair. I know this is not a large clinical test, but it´s a blind test with so far 100 % equal result. Next month we are starting on a large study with minimum 30 people getting Zeiss Individual measured on a Infral or Rodenstock Impression measured on a Impressionist, and another pair of lenses with Auto II and standard Panto & Vertex (9 degree Panto and 13 mm Vertex). Only Faceform angle will be measured on the Auto II.

As you can see, this problematic does take a lot of my time, because I find it relevant for me to know the truth in real life and not only in the theory, and because these values will be a part of the measures, among others, we need to take in the future.

Again guys. Sorry for my wording in previous thread, and lets get back to what it´s all about. Education and learning.

[Barry Santini]

Thanks for the apology, OCP.. We all get carried away sometimes!

For me, especially after heraing the terrifically-energizing Laurie Pierce speaking for Shamir and their FreeFrame technology, I've boiled down my position on panto/vertex to the following:

1. An ECP *begin* to understand and identify what "default" values for the POW parameters the more familiar/conventional progressives (such as Physio) assume in their fitting set.
2. The ECP should also now seek to identify what default values for the POW parameters for the newer DS FF lenses, whether they allow individual input of the same or not.
3. The ECP should begin to become familar with measuring these values, and become more expert in their measurements of the same.
4. The ECP should recognize that, for the majority of Rxs they fill, that differences from specific default values should be treated as trivial is the numeric difference is, (and I'm proposing this here), plus or minus 2 to 3 (That is, a default of 7 degress of pantoscopic tilt is close enough for values found between 4 and 10, and for vertex plus or minus 2mm)
5. The ECP should become diligent in separting the posture of an indivudual's head or neck, from the importance of head or neck posture on fitting heights, whether they be progressive, SV DV or SV NV).

I invite others to contribute their comments and opinions to the above.

Barry

[NewTop]

I´m sad the thread was closed, because in my opinion, Panto and Vertex is very interesting points, that I personally like to hear more about from other sources.

It is interesting matter and it took me a while to figure out why it can have a large effect on vision and comfort.

To Newtop: About Vertex optimizing with a large nose or not. Your absolutely right about this. If you move the lens closer to the eye you will get a harder design and reverse. But what I claim is that this will only be a minor and none noticeable difference if you use 13 mm as reference. With 13 mm as reference you will mostly get 2-3 mm back or forward in changes and therefor not much design changings.

I disagree (partially). If you choose to sell a compensated lens with default values why wouldn't you sell the not compensated equivalent? even the not compensated Autograph plus has design compensation for cilinder and axis but no power compensation and no design compensation for viewing angles.
Off course the panoramic wrap gives the biggest change in optics and design. Most regular flat frames have a panoramic wrap between 5 and 7 degrees, as long as you're in this range and you don't compensate for tilt and vertex it is useless to sell a compensated lens for this frame.

As you know for sure, you cant compare Auto II with Auto Plus. Auto II is a totally different complex design, where Auto Plus is more standard. Auto II has the overall power-, and design compensating, and the most important measure, the Faceform angle, which in my opinion is the absolutely most important measure because of the prismatic effect you get when the frame curves. The level of overall distortion is much lower in the Auto II as well.

I do not mean that Vertex and Panto are irrelevant, but these measures does not bring you noticeable differences when using default values instead. When using default values you still get power and design compensating.

We made a small study on 6 people in Denmark where we put on them on Auto II in same frame, power etc, but with different Vertex and panto. None of them can feel any difference, but all of them are very satisfied with both pair. I know this is not a large clinical test, but it´s a blind test with so far 100 % equal result.

Was the frame an average frame and where the people average? If so I'm not surpised that there is no real differance.

Next month we are starting on a large study with minimum 30 people getting Zeiss Individual measured on a Infral or Rodenstock Impression measured on a Impressionist, and another pair of lenses with Auto II and standard Panto & Vertex (9 degree Panto and 13 mm Vertex). Only Faceform angle will be measured on the Auto II.As you can see, this problematic does take a lot of my time, because I find it relevant for me to know the truth in real life and not only in the theory, and because these values will be a part of the measures, among others, we need to take in the future.

Why would you spend a lot of money on comparing the different lenstypes? But if you do this please include Autograph plus and give the clients 2x 3 frames, one serie of average frames with a FreeFrame a Plus and a Zeiss/Rodenstock lens and a serie of frames with a steep tilt and a larger vertex with the same lenses

Again guys. Sorry for my wording in previous thread, and lets get back to what it´s all about. Education and learning.

No hard feelings, I hope you've learned from it:)

Barry has given some input that we can work with. In my opinion it all comes down to the angle that the visionaxis makes with the lens. if something is outside the average, even pd, you know you can provide your client with a better lens if you campensate for it.

[OCP]

Most regular flat frames have a panoramic wrap between 5 and 7 degrees, as long as you're in this range and you don't compensate for tilt and vertex it is useless to sell a compensated lens for this frame.

Not totally useless because you got other benefits in Auto II than in Auto Plus, such as wider distance area.

the frame an average frame and where the people average? If so I'm not surpised that there is no real differance.

Some frames had more Faceform angle than others. From 5 to 12 degree.

would you spend a lot of money on comparing the different lenstypes? But if you do this please include Autograph plus and give the clients 2x 3 frames, one serie of average frames with a FreeFrame a Plus and a Zeiss/Rodenstock lens and a serie of frames with a steep tilt and a larger vertex with the same lenses

We are working with some of our customers that have the Infral or the Impressionist. Real clients gets real glasses. We just offer the opticians a pair of lenses for free after our choice without knowing the Panto and Vertex. Auto Plus could be an option as well.

hard feelings, I hope you've learned from it:)

I learned to act more professional and calm down when stupid persons are trying to drag me down.

[Judy Canty]

I learned to act more professional when stupid persons are trying to drag me down.

Hmmmm...maybe, maybe not.

[hcjilson]

I was thinking exactly the same thing! Perhaps the word "STUPID" means something else in Danish because here it is a violation of posting guidelines to call someone stupid, and that could result in a loss of posting ability.....which would really be a shame.

[Steve Machol]

I learned to act more professional and calm down when stupid persons are trying to drag me down.

Wow. Goodbye.