OD's getting it from all sides

[MVEYES]

I am hearing a consensus again that there are very capable pros in each of the O's. Lets keep that in mind before we make generalizations about one groups capability. After all it was law passed by politicians that gave us our rights in the first place. If MD's are allowed to refract it is due to laws passed. If Optometrists are allowed to use drugs it was a law that gave you that right. Hopefully some day opticians will be able to do a BASIC refraction through law. The ethics of having a full eye exam to pick up ocular anomalies and disease process is in the best interest of everyone. What happens in the future when we create laws that require complete physicals , blood work and all if we want to have an eye exam? There is no reason why an optician can not fulfill a basic refraction as long as they have warning labels on the Rx that the patient needs a thorough ocular workup every one or two years.

Jerry

[Don Lee]

Originally posted by Pete Hanlin


What seems to really disturb this writer is that patients are basically unable to tell a difference between the quality of care an OD vs. a MD provides.

The public doesn't understand the difference. optoms have done their homework and really know how to PLAY doctor. They also have incredibly strong PAC's that get bills passed that have no business being passed.

Also, refracting is not rocket science. It's takes a whole 2 weeks to learn to refract unbless you're really slow. But some tech, optoms, and Ophthalmologists don't get it after several years. My brother, a used car manager, can out refract most optoms, techs, and Doctors.

My bottom line is this, optoms and Opticians should refract and Ophthalmologists should treat pathology.

I'm now off of my soap box.

Don

[NC-OD]

Originally posted by Don Lee



My bottom line is this, optoms and Opticians should refract and Ophthalmologists should treat pathology.

I'm now off of my soap box.

Don

Don, that make absoultely no sense. In your scenerio, if OD's only refract and shouldn't treat pathology then why in the world should opticians refract.

I think you have a very distorted view of things with all due respect.

[NC-OD]

[ After all it was law passed by politicians that gave us our rights in the first place. If MD's are allowed to refract it is due to laws passed. If Optometrists are allowed to use drugs it was a law that gave you that right.
Jerry [/B][/QUOTE]

Your only half right. EDUCATION gave us the right..THEN legislation.

[Judy Canty]

Education gave you the skill....law gave you the right...

I fail to understand what is so terrifying about a college educated and state licensed Optician...

[MVEYES]

You both are absolutely right.

NC OD, why is it that optometry is so opposed to formal education for opticians and or licensing? Your associations fight on the legislative front to keep our profession from getting licensure or formal education.

Judy,
Bravo!


Jerry

[NC-OD]

MVEYES,

I honestly don't know why organized Optometry is against formal education and/or licensing for Opticians. I didn't really know they were. I am not heavily involved in the national association and not privy to all of the inner workings of it. But I don't hear the everyday OD's (or OMD's) that I interact with talk about preventing Opticians licensing (But I am in NC which is a licensed state).

Obviously MONEY is probably the misguided motivation for some??? For some reason, many people still think that if you are able to make money, then somehow you have taken money from me???!!!

I, for one, think formal educatoin is the right thing to do. I am for more education for anyone (especially the numbskulls who can't figure out how to give me change back for my Happy Meal).;)

Being perfectly honest, I really don't know how Optometry can be hypocritical after all we, as a profession, have put up with. From Ophthalmologist telling people we will kill them if we were allowed to dilate in the late 1970's to OMD's tell people we will kill them if we can put an antibiotic in their eye to treat an ulcer. Nobody is dying.

With education and training there is very little a person with average intelligence can't do........from refracting to pathology to surgery.

I will have to look into this Optometry against Opticianary fight because I really don't know that much about it.

Good (82 degree record-breaking weather here in NC today) day.
:cheers:

[SCO2004]

The argument of what an optometrist would do in an emergency situation (CVA, MI, Anaphylaxis, Drug interactions, etc) was actually one that WON optometrists the right to prescribe. The medical argument was that optometrists weren't educated and trained (maybe they weren't back then :) )to handle these situations, and thus should not be allowed to prescribe meds. When the MD was asked what he would do if a situation ocurred in his office his reply was that he would start revival techniques, inject IV epinephrine if indicated, and he would call 911. HMMMMMMMM, no drastic emergency tracheotimies, no rib splitters to open the chest so emergency heart massage could be performed. Needless to say this argument went up in flames as it should have.

[SCO2004]

"The public doesn't understand the difference. optoms have done their homework and really know how to PLAY doctor"

------I have no desire to "play doctor". When I finish my education, I will be fully educated and liscensed to make a difference and a living as an optometrist, which is entitled to the use of the title "Doctor". Will I be a medical doctor? No. I will be an optometrist. I am skilled in, or will be skilled in, the health of the human eye and visual system. I have absolutely no desire to become an MD. I think many believe because optometrists have the title of "doctor" that we wish to be MD's, but just couldn't handle the educational load. That couldn't be further from the truth. I guess all of the educators, scientists, and others who also hold the title of "doctor" just really wanted to MD's, but couldn't hack it.

"Also, refracting is not rocket science. It's takes a whole 2 weeks to learn to refract unbless you're really slow"

-------You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and this barely deserves a response. I will bite however, as I am feeling saucy. If you wish to refract like an MD, then by all means go take a two week course and give it a whirl. I think there has been plenty of testimony to the remakes an average MD has, vs an average optometrist. You would most likely be up to your wazoo in remakes. But let's say, for arguments sake, that you give a whiz-bang refraction most of the time.....no real problems...everybody is a one diopter myope with no corneal or lenticular cylinder, and boy when you fit them with their glasses are they excited.....then it hits, a patient who is presbyopic, has a convergence excess, diabetic retinopathy, has an intermittent alternating exotropia, and was recently diagnosed with a tumor sitting below the pituitary gland, thus compressing the optic nerve and giving symptoms consistent with hyperthyroidism due to the pituitary releasing too much TSH. Hmmmmmmm, what then, slap on those +0.50's and say have a nice day. Alot more thought goes into a refraction than you believe, obviously. Even basic refractions can become difficult if you have a poor responder, a malingerer, children, tropes or high phorias, high astigmatism. Would you be able in your two week course to cover nearly every possible visual condition, and the effects i would have on your refraction....I seriously doubt it.

I know my examlple may have been extreme, but difficult patients occur ALL THE TIME, and alot more goes into the refraction than just, "one or two", flip the JCC, do a near plus build up, and call it a day.

[SCO2004]

MVEYES,
I would like to tell you that from my perspective, an optometry student, that thus farinto my educational endeavors I have heard absolutely nothing negative in regards to opticianry. I cannot speak as to the AOA's stance, but from where I sit, opticians are regarded as important people in the picture of treating eye health. I have heard many OD's speak of opticians in high regard, and myself have a great respect for a quality optician. That being said, I beleive each "O" has its role, and it seems that there is the perception that the grass is always greener for the other "O" in too many cases.

At any rate, just my .02

[Laurie]

Dear pre-optometrist,

(Students),


Don't be personally offended by the remarks made on this forum...

As a young whippersnapper, you absolutely should be taking the stand you are taking.

After a few years in our profession, though, I would like to have this conversation with you again, when you have gotten your feet wet (And, I do not mean disrespect in these statements...)


The profession of eyecare has a rich and complex history. I would welcome you, and NC-OD to investigate the political happenings around our country in regard to the 3 O's.

In several cases, opticians have asked for simple things: licensure, education,...
only to have the OD's fight it tooth and nail at the end of session.


What are you really fighting?


Best Regards,

And, I am a big fan of Irving Borish and Theodore Grosvenor...

We (Opticians) are not that scary, but much smarter than you think!

: )

with love,

Laurie

[NC-OD]

Hey Laurie,

I still believe it will be nearly impossible to become a completely licensed profession without consistent, quality educational standards. It appears (mostly from what I read here) that the training for opticians range from OTJ training to apprenticeships to Associate degrees. I don't know of any other profession (there may be some, I just don't know about them) that is fully licensed with such a wide range of training and aptitudes. Not medicine, not optometry, not law, not nursing, not P.A.'s, not pharmacist, etc.

I believe a license in mainly for the public (for protection??) to state that a person is qualified and presumely has a certain minimum skills that qualifies him or her for a particular job. Of course, a simply licensing exam can probably do this I suppose?? But can it?

I agree with SCO2004. All thoughout school I never heard one bad comment about opticians. In fact, I had 2 former opticians in my class who probably taught me more about lenses and lens design than my professors. We had a dispensary in the school staffed by 4 opticians who taught us how to dispense specs. to our patients after we examined them.

I truly do want to more about which states and who are fighting against licensing opticians and why. Maybe someone can give me a good reason to not license opticians but I don't know of any myself. Seriously, are there any web sources I could look up to see what the actual agruments are?

:p

[SCO2004]

"We (Opticians) are not that scary, but much smarter than you think"
--- I have emphasized my respect for the number of educated and intelligent opticians posting on this board. If that did not get through or was lost somewhere in communication, I apologize.


"As a young whippersnapper, you absolutely should be taking the stand you are taking.

After a few years in our profession, though, I would like to have this conversation with you again, when you have gotten your feet wet (And, I do not mean disrespect in these statements...) "

-----I believe you when you say no disrespect was intended, just as I hope you believe no disrespect or questioning of intelligence was intended in my posts. I don't remember ever telling you my age before however, how do you know I am a "young whippersnapper" with a need to "get my feet wet". Older students are allowed admittance to higher education :)

"Don't be personally offended by the remarks made on this forum"
------No worries, I am not :p, but I would ask the same of you please (From my brief time on this board I've found you to be very intelligent) . I merely want to offer my opinion as well, and just because it differs greatly from some, does not mean I take offense to other's opinions, despit whatever tone may come across in my posts. I just write what I think and feel. I love a hotly contested, but civil and respectful debate!!

"What are you really fighting?"
-----My need to get off this board and study for my Ophthalmic optics test on Thuirsday, beyond that I have on blinders :)

"with love"
-----Awwwwwww shucks, already smitten are ye? Hope my wife doesn't find out....:D

Respectfully,

SCO2004

[Joann Raytar]

Originally posted by NC-OD
I still believe it will be nearly impossible to become a completely licensed profession without consistent, quality educational standards. It appears (mostly from what I read here) that the training for opticians range from OTJ training to apprenticeships to Associate degrees. I don't know of any other profession (there may be some, I just don't know about them) that is fully licensed with such a wide range of training and aptitudes. Not medicine, not optometry, not law, not nursing, not P.A.'s, not pharmacist, etc.

I believe you have answered the question about why Opticians feel they are not respected by the other O's. The other two O's have made the leap to formal education; opticians have not. The concept of mandatory education may sound intimidating to some; however, it is definitely a direction we must go in. As a profession, we cannot boast the same required levels of experience or standards from state line to state line; this is where we lose respect from other professionals and the public.

[MVEYES]

I hope you do get involved in the politics of your state and national group. You have the right idea about education. Maybe you could call the president of the Ohio Optometric Association and put her to shame about how she feels about formal education. You are absolutely right about being frustrated with people who can't even count change. I was an optician before I acheived an MBA, think how it makes me feel to have people claim they are opticians because someone hired them and they hand a patient a pair of glasses. If the roles were reversed I hope opticians would fight for ODs right to be formally licensed and formally educated. I still can't beleive that some degree programs (BA in ancient Greek literature) that universities offer. Yet a substantial field of endeavor that encompasses opticianry's scope of practice like eyewear design, contact lens fitting and physiological optics aren't offered as a degree program in most educational institutions where a school of Optometry exists (except to Optometry students). Remember what you say and stick to those convictions when you have a chance to voice your opinion.

:) Jerry

[Johns]

YOU'RE ALL WRONG !!!


We need to go after the hairdressers !

In my state, hairdressers are licensed. They have sharp scissors, razors, and even...chemicals!!!!

What if some old blue rinse passes out under the hair dryer, and there is no ophthalmologist or other trained emergency personnel in the vicinity to revive them ?

How can you people sleep at night ?

Don't you see ? The hairdressers are pitting the 3 O's against each other, so nobody will notice what they're getting away with.

Have you seen what they charge for a perm these days!!??

[Joann Raytar]

Johns,

You have uncovered the real culprit here. In our state hairdressers must also complete mandatory formal education.

Have you seen what they charge for a perm these days!!??

Well, that is the cost of your beautician knowing the mocecular structure of perming solution and the chemical reactions that take place during the perm.

[Don Lee]

Originally posted by NC-OD


Don, that make absoultely no sense. In your scenerio, if OD's only refract and shouldn't treat pathology then why in the world should opticians refract.

I think you have a very distorted view of things with all due respect.

I believe I made perfect sense. If optoms want to treat pathology then they should go to med school and become Ophthalmologists.

Opticians should be able to refract as they did prior to 1959, that's when refracting opticians became optoms.

My view isn't nearly as distorted as an optom who want's to be a surgeon by legislation rather than education, i.e. med school.

I also believe that Ophthalmologist shouldn't dispense eyeglasses.

Don

[SCO2004]

"I believe I made perfect sense. If optoms want to treat pathology then they should go to med school and become Ophthalmologists.

Opticians should be able to refract as they did prior to 1959, that's when refracting opticians became optoms"

---------Then by your logic if an optician wants to refract they should suck it up and just go to optometry school. Right? The community of opticans has already advanced and won the right to refract, you just need to go to an accreddited college of optometry and be properly educated and trained I suppose. Opticinary is the root of optometry.


If I may present another argument to prevent opticians from gaining the right to refract (begins stirring the pot):
I am currently busting my butt in optometry school, and will be in a great deal of debt as a result. A very large part of my education is refraction, as this is our "bread and butter". Not to mention the points I have made earlier, but this is another reason why opticians should not be able to refract. I have invested the time, the money, the blood,sweat, and tears to learn how to refract anyone who walks through my door, and this should not be given away to those who do not have to undergo the same amount of training.

I can see the argument coming about the hipocaracy by me saying this, but then believing in the right of optometrists to prescribe drugs. First off I have already listed some reasons why optometrists should be, and are, allowed to prescribe in previous posts. I do not believe optometrists should be performing surgery on the eye, if that is any consolation. At any rate, I gotta run to class, don't blast me too hard!:shiner:

[MVEYES]

You imply that you can buy your way to a right? Investment is years of work and continual learning. Because you paid to go to Optometry school does not guarantee you the right to deny others the right to improve their scope of practice. You are the quintessential example of the mindset of the politics being played to prevent Opticians from formal education! Do you realize from your education that a pair of glasses can be adjusted to effect the Rx!

I hope you grow and mature and realize there is room for all of us to practice our craft. Refraction is not a mythical process that the old wizards endow on you for your monetary gift. Basic instrumentation is learnable through less than graduate school education. Bread and butter is earned through reputation not symbols behind your name.


Jerry

[Steve Machol]

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread. Nonetheless I have read enough to see that we are repeating previous mistakes and starting to turn on each other yet once again.

Frankly I don't think NC-OD and SCO2004 present any threat to Opticianry at all. In fact, quite the opposite is true. They've both expressed great respect for Opticians in these forums and can be valuable allies if you just let them. That's why it's particularly distressing to see them accused of attitudes and beliefs they don't hold.

Let's keep the focus on facts, logic and reason and not allow emotions to cloud our interpretation of each other's words. That doesn't do anyone any good!

[Laurie]

Good comments...

Now for a brief rebuttal...


SCO2002: My calling you a whippersnapper has nothing to do with age, it has to do with years in the optical profession. You may be 60 years old for all I know, however, I assume that because you are a second year optometry student you do not have years of experience in ophthalmic optics.

Also to SCO2002:

If I edited your post to read "Optometrist" "treating pathology" in every instance that your wrote "Opticians" and "Refracting", we could see that it is the exact same argument, and the appearance of your profession trying to have it from all sides.

Come on now, fair is fair...Are you saying that the MD argument is hogwash and the OD argument is valid? Let's use our common sense here.

NC-OD: Here are a couple of OD/Optician examples I have had personal experiences with:

As you may know, opticians can fit contact lenses in some states, but not all. In New Jersey (a licensed state with mandatory formal education), they cannot.

However, the opticianry program there teaches CL, and has one of the best CL people out there: Patrick Goughry.

The Optometric society actually sued the college to stop teaching CL because it was not a part of opticians scope there. (Interestingly, ODs taught pharmacology years before it ever became part of thier scope)...Anyway, the only way they could continue to teach CL was to hire an OD as the instructor! Patrick G. is considered an expert in CL, he has authored many CL articles, and lectures on CL topics all around the country. Now he cannot even teach CL in his own program!

Next case:

Last year in Maine the opticians society came very close to getting a license bill through which included mandatory education. The president of the opticians org (my sister!) met with the OD's on several occasions, and actually agreed to keep CL out of the bill! Even with that, at the last hour, the OD's changed their view and testified that it was unecessary for opticians to be formally educated and licensed. Guess who won? Of course, the docs with the deeper pockets.

Last scenerio:

Once when I was giving a presentation at Eyequest, I ran into an OD on the escalator. He saw the "speaker" ribbon on my name badge, and asked what I was going to talk about. I was giving an advanced course on lens aberrations and design philosophies using a very high tech lens design program (written by our very own Darryl Meister). I said, "Oh, lens design stuff and marginal astigmatism..."

He then looked at my badge again, and read the "optician" classification...He actually said to me, in a very patronizing voice, "Now remember, tell them, BEND THEM, DON'T BREAK THEM"!

I could list about ten more stories that I have had personal experience with. I could probably list 30 more by heresay.

My (long winded ) point?

I honestly hope you do look into the political agenda of your profession. Optometry fights hard to prohibit opticians from fitting contact lenses, and has officially opposed education and licensure for opticians.

I would like nothing more than for ODs and Opticians to be political friends...I just don't see your profession doing anything but fight our attempts.


Laurie

[Don Lee]

Originally posted by Laurie
I honestly hope you do look into the political agenda of your profession. Optometry fights hard to prohibit opticians from fitting contact lenses, and has officially opposed education and licensure for opticians.

I would like nothing more than for ODs and Opticians to be political friends...I just don't see your profession doing anything but fight our attempts.
Laurie

Excellent points, Laurie.

Over the past 40+ years I've never met an optom who was personally against Opticians becoming licensed or better educated. BUT during these 40+ years the group as a whole has fought tooth and nail against anything the Opticians have tried to accomplish.

Some optoms in Oklahoma went so far as to say they that licensing would give the impression that Opticians are a credible group.

I must look at the actions and track record of the group as a whole and make the appropriate judgements.

To Steve, if NC-OD and SCO2002 are truly respectful of Opticaians and want the best for us then they shouldn't take offense of anything that's been said and we should be careful not to attack them personally.

Don

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Don Lee
To Steve, if NC-OD and SCO2002 are truly respectful of Opticaians and want the best for us then they shouldn't take offense of anything that's been said and we should be careful not to attack them personally.

Don

I agree with the latter part of this, but how can you say they shouldn't take offense at anything that's been said? I don't see how this follows logically.

[Pete Hanlin]

I am currently busting my butt in optometry school, and will be in a great deal of debt as a result. A very large part of my education is refraction, as this is our "bread and butter". Not to mention the points I have made earlier, but this is another reason why opticians should not be able to refract. I have invested the time, the
money, the blood,sweat, and tears to learn how to refract anyone who walks through my door, and this should not be given away to those who do not have to undergo the same amount of training.

Right point, wrong argument. I'm about to catch flak for this statement, but I don't think Opticians really need to be refracting, either. Not because you, as an Optometrist-to-be are owed anything simply because you went to school, however. Heck, I could go to a school on how to change oil for 4 years and it wouldn't necessarily mean that the high school drop out at Jiffy Lube wouldn't be as competent as I at the end of my studies! Now, I might have had some wondrous learning concerning the internal combustion engine and fuel injection systems, etc., along the way, but how much skill does it really take to change oil is the real question! Just to complete the analogy, after investing all that time and money into learning how to change oil, I would probably get together with all my other Oil Changing University grads and try to get legislation that allowed only us to change oil (and then the non-OCU grads would understandably get bent because they couldn't do something they are equipped to do...). Before you wax on about the intricacies of refracting, save it- I've watched too many Optoms, MDs, and techs refract to know that it is an art- but one that doesn't require a college degree.

Anyway, now that I've pi$$ed off every OD, I'll try teeing off the LDOs... Come on, there is no reason for Opticians to refract. We all know that patients would quit having their eyes checked for health problems if LDOs could refract (no matter how much we would recommend that they do so). Insurers would probably start including "refractions only" as part of their eye plans, because the refraction is the only part of the exam most people are worried about. Further, Optometry colleges have pumped out so many grads that there is plenty of refracting capability out there already. If you can't find a complete exam for less than $50 in your area, just call me and I'll track one down for you! Facts are, the public doesn't need more refractionists out there. Really wanna refract? Go work in a MD office, and they'll let you do it to your heart's content! There's also no money in it for the same reason there isn't any money in practicing Optometry these days (namely, third party and intense competition).

So, to sum- ODs get a lot of training to be stuck doing some very basic things. The "fun" and "serious" stuff should probably be let to the MDs for the same reason refracting should be left to ODs (namely, there are a ton of MDs out there, so there is no need for extra diagnosers and treaters out there). Sorry guys, its just the law of supply and demand. Wanna refract? Go to Optom school. Wanna slice, dice, and medicate? Go to Med school.

Now, I do believe an Optician is fully capable of providing an excellent refraction. I'm also sure there are plenty of ODs out there capable of diagnosing and even treating with the best of them. Unfortunately, it comes down to money, money, money- which is really why we get bent outta shape over all of this. (Except for Laurie who I honestly think just does this for the joy of the profession- you go girl! BTW, I had an Optom come up after one of my classes to inquire which OD school I graduated from. His comment on hearing I was an Optician? "Oh what a shame, you have the stuff to make it through Optometry school." Funny, I'm usually happy having the 'stuff' to be a good Optician- but I just smiled and "thanked" him for the "compliment.").

My hunch? Don't worry, SCO... you will be able to treat whatever you want in the near future. You will also never have to worry about Opticians stealing away refractions. Why? Because Optometrists give TONS of cash to elected officials and are heavily involved in the election campaigns of their local officials (Optometry is the number THREE pacfund provider in Florida). Nothing personal about that, nothing to do with the capabilities of each profession- its just the "way it is."

Now, I'll leave you all to gripe back and forth about refractions... I'm going to go sell some glasses and make some REAL money!

PS- I LOVE ODs... worked for them my whole career. As long as they realize most of their money comes from me and my staff of Opticians, we get along just great.