Defending Harry

[Night Train]

Yesterday, I agreed to a 10 minute debate next week in our Sunday School class. I am to take a position FOR the Harry potter Books. My adversary will try to convince our class That Harry is Evil and Teaches witchcraft to our children. As this opposing view is obviously rediculous, I do not forseee this being much of a challenge. BUt, If anyone wants to help me in this endeavor, feel free to post your observations.

[hcjilson]

Don't listen to the muggles!
The are some who would accuse the bearded old guy who parted the Red Sea of witchcraft, to say nothing of the one who fed the multitudes with loaves and fishes as well as helping Lasarus out of a deep sleep.Who is to say what is right or wrong to read.Any vehicle which promulgates reading in youngsters is valuable.Reading is how we learn.Harry Potter = reading ergo Harry Potter is good for the young and young at heart.I remember Pete Hanlin touting the book some time back.I finally got a copy and am halfway through it, having the time of my life reading it for fun.Thats exactly what it is.....FUN.
good luck and don't forget to return to this thread and tell us what happened.
friend harry

[Pete Hanlin]

I would argue that it is very healthy for children to be exposed to stories that involve the imagination. Actually, if anything, I would argue against the movie, because the books encourage children to read and use their imagination- which is lost somewhat in the movie.

Whether the imaginary story involves a "little engine that could" or King Arthur and a magic sword or a child who uses bravery and teamwork to overcome evil at a school of magic is rather immaterial. The books aren't a manual for witchcraft, there are no satanic references, and good generally triumphs. Where then is the harm?
It is a fantasy story, for the love of god! This is just like some parents who want to shield their children from any exposure to normal aspects of life (e.g., alcohol, music with a rhythm, etc.). You can "protect" them as long as you like, but all you are doing is setting them up to be incapable of handling them responsibly later on.

[Night Train]

Well, the debate is over. It really wasnt much of a debate. It was me against about twenty brainless morons...ooops...I mean Christian Brothers and Sisters. I heard things like:

"Oh my...I read one page and things were moving in shadows and there were scary cats....you can't tell me thats not demonic activity"

"Doesnt this Dumbledore character have a pointy nose? And don't witched have pointy noses?......need I say more?"

"I heard there is a first grade class in godknowswhere Missourri where students are actually required to read about Real witchcraft and occult activity as they practise spells they have learned from these books"

"Didnt the Author have to research her work about witches before she could write about them? How do you think that Affected HER?"

I managed to make all the obvious points and still not get kicked out of church. You know, its know wonder sometimes that Christains have the reputations we have. If I was a reporter, Id make my stories come out in such a way to make fun of us too. The world sees Christianity as a list of "Dos and Don'ts" and we keep adding to the list. How frustrating. Does anyone actually hear the words they sing in "AMAZING GRACE" or are they jsut repeating them? Yes, you can read Harry Potter and go to Heaven. You can smoke and go to Heaven. (Thats for Maria) This one would get me kicked out of church....There will be homosexuals with better seats in heaven than I will have. Yes, Hell is real, but lets not populate it with people who arent evil. There is enough evil in the world that we dont have to go making it up.

[chip anderson]

I'm with Pete on this one. And after all Harry is not an evil warlock, he does not study for demonic results.

Chip

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Night Train
I heard things like:

"Oh my...I read one page and things were moving in shadows and there were scary cats....you can't tell me thats not demonic activity"

"Doesnt this Dumbledore character have a pointy nose? And don't witched have pointy noses?......need I say more?"

"I heard there is a first grade class in godknowswhere Missourri where students are actually required to read about Real witchcraft and occult activity as they practise spells they have learned from these books"

"Didnt the Author have to research her work about witches before she could write about them? How do you think that Affected HER?"

ROLFLMAO!! I find it simply amazing that we need to deal with people like this and that anyone would take these arguments seriously.

[JRS]

And some people will swear the pro-wrestling is real too.

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by JRS
And some people will swear the pro-wrestling is real too.

Don't get me started on this! My son is into 'pro' wrestling. I swear sometimes that my wife must have been cheating on me! ;)

[hcjilson]

Are you guys trying to tell me.....[B]PRO WRESTLING ISN'T REAL????????????? I'll bet the next thing your going to tell me is that there is no Santa Claus!:)
talk to you all at the beginning of the week!
hj

[LaurieC]

and feel for Marlena! Besides that Jim keeps looking at me, I almost wonder if I cheated on me! I have this young man whom I thought was normal, seemed intelligent....... he runs around doing this eyebrow thing telling me he's something called "the rock"

Originally posted by Steve Machol
Don't get me started on this! My son is into 'pro' wrestling. I swear sometimes that my wife must have been cheating on me! ;)

[Joann Raytar]

Night Train,

Our public access station had a discussion on the very same topic, Harry that is. Apparently the guest was someone who wrote the book The Reintroduction Of Witchcraft To Children or something like that.

She backed up her arguments by saying that Harry Potter teaches bad values to kids. I believe at one point during the movie Harry does something bad and his professor tells him that it is OK. Everyone has to be mischievious at somepoint in their lives. She said the movie condoned doing bad things.

Another argument regarded what other companies are doing to market on the Harry Potter hype. Apparently, she went into a bookstore and next to the Harry Potter display was a "Teach Yourself WICCA Kit For Teenagers." The kit came with a spell book and your own alter. They had a screenshot and the thing looked like Barbie's Witchcraft kit, it was so cheesy. A Oujia board is scarier than the kit. Enter the Oujia board argument.

The last part of the argument was against Scholastic Books publishing the series. I guess Scholastic distributes many of the books schools use for their reading list. Many teachers are using the books to get kids hooked on reading so they are showing up in the classrooms. She argues that schools are forcing a type of religion on her kids. This is where I think she loses her argument. You can't argue against a book for being immoral and against religious beliefs saying kids should be taught religious values and then argue that the book is teaching kids religious beliefs in school. She contradicts herself and discrimminates against other religions that are not the same as hers.

In the end, all I could picture was one of SNL's Churchlady interviews with Dana Carvey. The opening dialogue, who is the president of Scholastic? Could it possibly be Saaaatan?

[Shwing]

I'm not into wrestling, but as you brought it up...

Last week, Ed Whalen died in Calgary. If you ever watched Stampede Wrestling, or know who the Hart family is, you probably know who Wailin' Ed Whalen is. Funeral is today.

[Steve Machol]

I just thought I'd mention that the first time I saw the title of this thread 'Defending Harry', I wondered what Harry Jilson had done now!

[hcjilson]

I thought exactly the same thing!!! :D
hj

[Darris Chambless]

Hello all,

There is one simple truth to all of this with regard to Harry Potter and that is that it's just a book. I don't recall any real Hub Bub when The Hobbit came out and it's full of magic, wizards and witches. Stephen King writes about "evil" in just about every book he's ever written. They are only books and fiction at that.

The problem lies in the failure of the parents to teach the children the difference between reality and fiction and therefore the children have difficulty discerning between the two. Why do you think they cut all the violence out of Bugs Bunny and The Road Runner? Because children watching began to think that you could jump off of a cliff get up and walk away after the fact. But was that the fault of the cartoon? Nope. It was the failure of the parents to teach something so simple "It's just a cartoon and its not real. Falling off a cliff can hurt you badly or even kill you."

A failure of parents to teach the basics has created the very melle`that they are so concerned about. People don't want to admit that they, themselves might be the problem.

So the best way (in the event that this should come up for you again) to handle a debate of this nature is to look those "against" right in the eyes and say "IT'S A FICTIONAL STORY BOOK!!! The only way children could be misguided by it is if they weren't getting the guidiance at home to begin with."

It's things such as this that reaffirm my loathing for stupidity ;)

Take care and I hope you never have to encounter idiocy such as this again (It will unfortunately happen though so be prepared :)

Darris C.

[ioconnell]

Originally posted by Steve Machol
I just thought I'd mention that the first time I saw the title of this thread 'Defending Harry', I wondered what Harry Jilson had done now!

:bbg: I thought the same thing Steve, I just pictured Harry giggleing like a little schoolgirl as he went ahead and pressed the do not press button refered to in an earlier thread

[Night Train]

One person said the POtter series "Blurred the Lines of Morality". I responded by saying that Just this week OCEANS ELEVEN came out. A movie where all the protagonists are thieves and we are supposed to cheer for them. I suggested that THAT is blurring the lines of Morality. Harry Potter has a Clearly Good side against a Clearly Bad side. Its not Blurry at all. I went on to say that Of all the four books, I could only remember 2 or 3 Possible Profanitys (Very Vague Ones) And I asked the Class Which Movies theyve seen this year could make that same claim.

[Joann Raytar]

Darris,

You are correct. I also believe that some folks, even children, are just a bit loopy. Recall all of the hubub about Dungeons and Dragons; albeit that was a roll playing game, so it involved a bit more interaction on the part of the players. I believe there was a story circulating out there about a teenager who killed another because he had taken on the personality of one of the characters. I don't recall if that was truth or urban legend. Personally, D & D was great and involved a ton of creativity to run a really good game. However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone took the game a little bit too close to heart.

I have seen parents who would probably forget their kids names if they weren't written down in their Day Timers somewhere. There are also parents who think parenting is something you get out of a self help book and haven't got a clue about teaching kids basic human behavior. If a kids on his own when it comes to values then who knows what source he will use to learn values from. On the other hand a kid who has piety and virtue choaked down his or her throat will also find an alternate source of education.

[Darris Chambless]

Okay,

I have read "Harry Potter and The Sorceror's Stone" and I can now say that people against the contents of this book have not READ the book themselves. So what does that tell us? That IGNORANCE is alive and doing quite well in this world. I found the story very intriguing and actually had more morals than other stories I've either read or seen on the big and little screens.

In my opinion the story had many good lessons for children. It didn't encompas witchcraft or even magic. What it did was use a fantasy setting to teach lessons and hardships that we all face while growing up and how to deal with and understand them.

We've all faced bullies, overcome adversity, been embarassed, gotten in trouble for both noble and not so noble reasons, talked back to our parents, teachers and friends, made friends, made enemies, and wished for things that were out of our reach. I think the story did a good job of showing how different people deal with all these things. I don't think you could keep a childs attention by using an everyday setting as it would probably prove boring to a child. So the author spiced it up with witches, ghosts and Sorcerors, so what. I think some of these people just have a little too much time on their hands and the others just haven't complained about enough things lately. Either way it's a completely rediculous arguement.

I find these arguements very similar to those given for "The Last Temptation of Christ." As for movies it was (IMO) what I expect Jesus was really like. A guy that the people could relate to. A non pretentious kind of guy. I heard the arguements of sacrilage at the ending and I'm sorry but it just wasn't. I saw it as the final attempt by the Devil to make Jesus change his mind, but Jesus refused even while suffering on the cross. The whole story seemed to follow the stories in the bible very well. There was just no way to argue it being sacrilageous without looking like a fool.

Anyway that's my take on Harry Potter,

Darris C.

[Homer]

many people are afraid of the Religious Fundamentalist Right - they are scarrier than anything in Harry Potter.

A few years, when I was a boy, someone said that one of the best ways to reduce auto accidents would to be to take every car off of the road that was not paid for. Might work! More so today!

If we applied the same rule to commentary, opinion and argument on books that people have not read, ther'd be a lot less debate - particularlly in the church.

Homer

[Maria]

The general rule of thumb with these people seems to be,"If it's enjoyable by non-Christians, then it's wrong."

The far-right Christians just have this vague notion that they're supposed to disapprove of everything, because fun is synonymous with sin. The knock-on effect is that they can't find out for themselves if the stuff is sinful or not, just in case it is, and then they've exposed themselves to sin. The further effect is that they become rather pious and holier-than-thou, because of all the disapproving. Consequently, they are very boring.

Pointing out that, given where Jesus lived, he was certainly black, and in fact bore a much closer resemblence to Ice-T than to the white-skinned, blue eyed, Robert Powell-type Jesus adorning the walls of their home, is always an amusing way to shut them up when they start going on about how Harry Potter is Satanism in 4 doses . :)

[marblez]

i have a dear friend who unfortunately for all us(her friends)have gone to the far right in the religous sense. She sent me a email about how bad Harry Potter was and that these books should be baned in public schools. I know for a fact she has not even looked at them, much read them. It frightens me that a woman, who's husband defends our country believes in censorship. I have now read 2 of the books and hope to get the other two for Christmas. I can see the images in my head and would hope the every child could get the same opportunity as me. The is good and evil in the books and in real life, but like it has been said it is fiction. and fiction only.


My answer to this debate is

Go Harry Go
Christina

[Joann Raytar]

Maria,

I think you may have brought an interesting point up by mentioning Jesus.

Many cultures would construe his miracles as magic. If we follow the extremists' moral codes then the New Testament would fall into the same category as Harry Potter. You know, Jesus hanging out with Mary Magdeline, the prostitute, and multiplying the fish and bread. He even went into the temple and tossed over the money changers' counters; not exactly a peaceful demonstration that time. Jesus' rising from the dead and appearing to his disciples would probably have some folks believing he was a witch.

If folks knew many years ago what they know now about Jesus he probably wouldn't be the popular entity he is now. Archeologists have found a tremendous amount of evidence pointing to the what you just mentioned about his race and he also seems to have had more of a politically motivated mind than most would believe. He still did everythind for the cause of God, he just wasn't as simple and shallow as folks would want us to believe. In fact, I firmly believe that we all may be up a creek at the second coming of Christ. I don't think folks will recognize what he is up to. Poplular society will probably either throw him in a pshychiatric hospital, jail or kill him if he comes back to one of the more violent cultures. What I am trying to say is unless Jesus comes back as a televangelist, most of those extreme right fundamentalists wouldn't know Christ if he showed up tomorrow.

[Homer]

If this Jesus would appear today doing the "magical" things he is reported to have done some years ago and would continue to associate with prostitutes and aids victums he would be called a false teacher by those who claim to be right.

When or if Messiah does appear to deliver His people, I think that he will have to lift us all out of the same gutter - there won't be any little armies of religous people helping Him clean the rest of us up.

But, now would be a good time for Messiah to come.........

Homer

[Darris Chambless]

Hello everyone,

In referrence to the whole Jesus thing, I too have always had a problem with the way he has been depicted both in story, TV shows, movies and pictures. Jesus wasn't a white guy with blonde hair and a red beard as is so often shown in the good old US of A. Although Willam DuFoe did do the truest-to-form depiction of what I believe Jesus was "like" he's not what I picture Jesus looking like. Those that haven't seen "The Last Temptation of Christ" I do recommend it.

Jesus character is serious when he needs to be, almost tyranical in certain instances, emotional almost to a fault and a world class partier with a lot to say. The parables used to set the points he's trying to get across aren't just thrown in as a part of his way of speaking, but more as a way to get the attention of his followers to see just how much they understood about what was going on. He was a fantastic orator and could keep the attention of the crowds of followers he would speak to at different cities, not unlike Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Whether you're a believer or not I think that after seeing this movie all would agree that Willam pulled off the most realistic portrayal of Jesus, even though the churches tried to ban the movie altogether and discredited it at every turn.

Take care everyone,

Darris C.