Dear Steve

[Jubilee]

So what do you tell your customers that say I can save 50% on the materials by purchasing them over the web?

I am sure in your immense reading, that you saw our reasons why not to buy your eyeglasses over the web. That by going with a high index material, the measurements need to be more precise or you may pick up distortion.

That service such as troubleshooting the glasses will probably cost you in a local office, since you didn't purchase them.

Be prepared to pay for every nose pad, temple tip, and adjustment since these are part of the costs included in the overall price of your frame.

Along with our expert knowledge, consultation, and skill.

If your glasses break, who will you see to replace them? How much will it cost?

If you coating starts to craze, will this place use the warranty that is generally available on them?

If the needs tweaking, will they be able to make you new lenses, while you where the old, and switch them out when ready at n/c?

I know I have offered to match price on internet items if patients were willing to give up these often "included" type services as well. Most patients though will oftern pay more to have the same warranties, and services after the sale as the rest of my patients do..

Just some things to think about.

AS far as pricing is concerned. The problem with just looking at the cost of goods, is that it isn't the only costs associated with operating. You would not believe how many patients I have had that thinks we overcharge do to "I saw an add for this frame for $7!" You are making a killing!

Well sir, we have to pay for our staff, software, computers, networking, marketing, lab equipment (which can cost tens to a hundred grand on the generator alone, not to mention the coating machines, the blockers, markers, edgers, tinting supplies, the safety supplies to be within OSHA regulations, the supplies such as alloy (which can be several hundred dollars a block) polish, pads, tape, blocks, blades, wheels, etc that are needed to make the lenses and maintain it.. oh then there is the water, electricity, rent/mortgage, the costs included in continuing education to keep our licenses, and well the list goes on.

Most optical people don't make the money those outside the industry think because of all the other stuff that is needed to make the glasses or to fit/measure the contacts.

Cassandra

[rbaker]

If you have indeed researched the web and consider yourself an “educated” consumer, why in the name of sweet mother of Pete are you asking questions here. Cripes, you spent all that time schlepping around cyberspace picking up pearls of wisdom and knowledge about the eyecare field. You should be answering our questions.

[Andrew Weiss]

Dear IzzyMac,

At our office we have many educated consumers and many who want more information. I have a reputation of being willing to teach people what they want to know. I see that as part of my job. I'm glad you find OptiBoard to be such a rich resource.

I also want folks like you to buy eyeglasses from us. Why? Because if they don't, then I don't have a job. And I want a job that pays me fairly for my years of training and experience and my knowledge and skill. If you've been reading this board, you must already have learned that opticians are normally underpaid considering the amount of training and skill our work requires.

In order for the docs to pay me a decent salary, they have to charge a decent amount for the eyeglasses. My salary is part of their overhead. I realize you know all of this because you run your own business, but somehow I feel as though that knowledge didn't filter through into your assessment of the retail optical world in your post.

Frankly we cannot compete with the internet optical folks. Sometimes we pay more for the item than they sell it for (especially true of contact lenses). The question is, is it important to the consumer world for there to be licensed opticians who can make a decent living so we can offer the excellent-quality service you want?

If your answer to that last question is "yes," then I sincerely hope you will patronize your local optician, pay the extra $$ for his/her expertise and service, and support us.

Yes, I do purchase goods on the internet, but I am careful not to purchase something that requires the high degree of personalization, knowledge, skill and service that items like eyeglasses require.

I hope you take this posting in the spirit of helpfulness, because that's how it's offered. We want the opportunity to earn your business.

[Fezz]

Andrew,

Very well said. Bravo.


I owe you a drink for that!



Fezz
:cheers:

[Andrew Weiss]

Thanks, Fezz. :D

[IzzyMac]

If you have indeed researched the web and consider yourself an “educated” consumer, why in the name of sweet mother of Pete are you asking questions here. Cripes, you spent all that time schlepping around cyberspace picking up pearls of wisdom and knowledge about the eyecare field. You should be answering our questions.

But I didn't ask any questions. :finger: I commented about my hope that the board stays open so that caring consumers can do some research. I don't expect anyone to give "actual" advice, though a product review is always nice to read and the comments with it.

[IzzyMac]

Dear IzzyMac,

At our office we have many educated consumers and many who want more information. I have a reputation of being willing to teach people what they want to know. I see that as part of my job. I'm glad you find OptiBoard to be such a rich resource.

I also want folks like you to buy eyeglasses from us. Why? Because if they don't, then I don't have a job. And I want a job that pays me fairly for my years of training and experience and my knowledge and skill. If you've been reading this board, you must already have learned that opticians are normally underpaid considering the amount of training and skill our work requires.

In order for the docs to pay me a decent salary, they have to charge a decent amount for the eyeglasses. My salary is part of their overhead. I realize you know all of this because you run your own business, but somehow I feel as though that knowledge didn't filter through into your assessment of the retail optical world in your post.

Frankly we cannot compete with the internet optical folks. Sometimes we pay more for the item than they sell it for (especially true of contact lenses). The question is, is it important to the consumer world for there to be licensed opticians who can make a decent living so we can offer the excellent-quality service you want?

If your answer to that last question is "yes," then I sincerely hope you will patronize your local optician, pay the extra $$ for his/her expertise and service, and support us.

Yes, I do purchase goods on the internet, but I am careful not to purchase something that requires the high degree of personalization, knowledge, skill and service that items like eyeglasses require.

I hope you take this posting in the spirit of helpfulness, because that's how it's offered. We want the opportunity to earn your business.

Hi Andrew!

Thank you for your thoughtful and appreciated comments. I agree that some products translate better for Internet sales - primarily things that don't go inside or on a human body - at least generally speaking [not counting stuff like luxury chocolates for example, not that I'd know anything about that!]

During my recent [08/09/06] visit to the local optical shop, I decided to buy the contacts from them, despite the price being double. I paid the going market rate for the exam [$75/] and then paid twice as much for the lenses [Focus Night/Day] as I would had I purchased on the Internet. I'm okay with that because the eye doctor was a good fellow, discussed many different lenses with me, I asked as many questions as I liked, and he gave me 2 pairs to use for 2 months so that I can be sure I like this lense over my prior lense [which was an excellent not advertised lense]. If I do like these lenses, and my 8 months worth of them work out well, then when I do a refill, I'll probably go the Internet route as they're just 1/2 price that way. Arriving in factory sealed boxes I don't think I'd be getting an inferior product if I do go this way for the refill. And those Internet joints do offer a return/refund if there is something wrong with the lense. As do the eyeglass places and the replacement lense places. For instance, I called a local Lenscrafters. They were quite snooty and informed me that they'd need to "inspect" my new eye glass frames for replacement lenses and they'd take 14 working days for the non-name-brand hi-index lense w/AR. And cost me more than twice what the Internet place charges for name brand Seiko 1.67 w/AR charges [and they offer a guarantee and money back if you're not happy/something wrong for a year]. Who would a consumer choose? Not too hard to figure out really.

Now as for pay scales for those in the field and the amt of education - I hear you. My ex-hubby is an structural engineer w/a double major in civil engineering. He works on big commercial building projects so he must remain up to date on technology and get in his CEU to keep the license. That effort and expertise and smarts is NOT well compensated; he was a guy with top notch skills, thought of highly in his specialty and was only making $75K, until he got ditched 2 yrs ago for a kid at half price. Not because of lack of work or need, but because the offices moved to a higher rent location and he was up for a raise. Being over 50 didn't help either; he's now in retraining/certification for Microsoft [thankfully he's a computer geek too]. Sadly, he'll face outsourcing when he does break into that field. In other words, life $uck$ for many professions.

I'll likely buy my glasses online ONLY because my own son [adult] did so well with his glasses last year. They come with a 2 yr warranty except for loss, and the lenses are included in that; fitting wasn't a big deal. He went to a Lenscrafter and they did it for free, which was nice to say the least. He literally saved $250.00, which for a young guy starting out and just out of college, means something.

If I buy my lenses online, and the eye doc I just saw did a good job examining my eyes, then short of being made wrong [that's happened to me twice at high end local optical shops who both gave me a hard time when I was seeing warped and they didn't know how to fix it! After weeks of suffering, I demanded my $ back and got a hard time about that too - then after much wrangling they gave it back.] it should be okay. The lenses are guaranteed and warranteed. As a life long eyeglass wearer, I know if the glasses are funky & not fit/made well. Since I'm buying my frame from a trusted Ebay "store" who's a wholesaler [having tried them on locally at a snooty shop where customers are treated like dirt] and sending them in for lenses, unless they totally screw it up, I should be good to go. I'd be happy to buy glasses locally if they had a quality pair I liked at a price I felt was even ballpark reasonable. I was okay with middle of the road frames but then I began looking at some really cool frames online. Even nicer than what I've seen in the eye shops here. Going with the Ebay wholesaler [who gives a 7 day money back guarantee, no questions asked] I can get a $450.00 hand-made German frame for a lot less and get the authencity papers and case. Years ago, a man my cousin dated was an eye doctor who'd owned then sold his nice shop/business. He said that back then contact lenses cost a few bucks a pair, but he routinely sold them for $200 plus the eye exam for another fee. And that was just the contacts. He was a very rich old man.

If I ever get "Interneted" out of my work [business interior design, high end contract furniture dealer] I'll be surprised to say the least. Yes, I do get a lot of horse-trading clients, especially the giant corporations, and I have a lot of serious competition too, yet I do okay because I don't make clients feel silly, looked down upon or not worth my time in relation to the profit margin. Ultimately, clients buy "you" not the products, though that comes in a very close 2nd. I know if I get a whiff of a hard sell, I walk. I don't do sales that way myself and I detest it in others, because it's not necessary if you see each client as someone with a "need" to fill versus your pocketbook's priorities. Maybe that's why I can beat out dealers who offer similar quality products at similar prices - but treat clients like "Next!". ;)

[drk]

Live it up, Izzy. The brick-and-mortar's are going to respond to people like you, when/if you reach critical mass.

[Spexvet]

This board has an incredibly powerful search function. Consumers should be able to find whatever they are looking for without posting for one-thousandth time "which progressive is best for me?"

Also: see your local, licensed, optician! :bbg:

[LENNY]

But WHY are we getting so many consumers posts all of the sudden!

[Jacqui]

But WHY are we getting so many consumers posts all of the sudden!

Don't know why we're getting so many suddenly, but it's rediculous. After the last few days I have come to favour a locked board for professionals only.

[Steve Machol]

But WHY are we getting so many consumers posts all of the sudden!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...Aoptiboard.com

303,000 OptiBoard pages indexed by Google may have something to so with this.

[harry a saake]

Not only that, but if you have ever posted, your name will come up if you type it in the search browser, and everything you may have entered on the optiboard will be shown. As a joke one night i typed my name in google and all sorts of stuff came up, my mantle website, a party i attended with phernall walker, optiboard posts, all in all not very hard for the consumers to find us

[LENNY]

Steve!
Do you think it is possible to block spyders from Optiboard and send them all to Chris Ryser's website. I am shure they will find all the answers there!
Let the consumers bother the manufacturers (sorry Pete). At least we will know why are We paying so much for Hi indexes and brand name progressives! Or can we refer them directly to the manufacturers!
Maybe they are missing the dirrect contact with the public!

[harry a saake]

just for the heck of it i typed in several names in google, heres what i got

steve machol 473,000
harry saake 17,900
optiboard 128,000
chris ryser 71,200


now these are not all hits on us , but there is enough for anyone to easily find us, strangely enough i typed in just machol and the first item to come up was the machol isreali dance club, steve i didnt know you were running a club:cheers:

[HarryChiling]

I work in the baltimore MD area, and I have alot of these same individuals that think they are high and mighty because they got there products for next to cost. The problem is when they break, f you are not my customer you pay a higher fee for me to solder, sorry thats how it goes if you don't like it send it to the online place. I don't take PD's that walk out the door. You can come in and try on the frames however the information is covered by our price stickers so you can forget about walking out of my store with the info to purchase online. And nose pads and such cost you unless you purchased from us. I do adjust peoples frames and I cannot be held responsible for them if they break and guess what if they are really out of wack I usually refer you to your optician. For all I care buy it online, don't dirty up my stock with your funky hair and face if you don't plan on purchaseing here and don't come into my shop looking for a handout when you need adjustments and nosepads and such.

The online places are taking advantage of what opticians give away and are even offering it as part of their service in some cases. "You can get your frames adjusted for free at almost any optical shop." This business model is dependant on the brick and mortars giving away services. We will only give away srvices to our customers, I am not snooty as a matter of fact I consider us a family and if you purchase your glasses from us you are part of that family and we will do anything to please you, but what do you think the optical shops are going to treat you like when you walk in the door talking about, I can get it cheaper, and with a better warranty.

THEN WHY ARE YOU HERE TRYING ON MY FRAMES ASKING ME IF I CAN WRITE THE NAME DOWN.

IZZY you suck and if you come into my shop I will be more than happy to show you the door.

[LENNY]

:D Can I join THE DANCE CLUB?
Is it for Professionals only?:D

[Johns]

If I ever get "Interneted" out of my work [business interior design, high end contract furniture dealer] I'll be surprised to say the least.

Surprise!!

Doin't look now, but your job is already in the begining stages of being replaced by none other than e-bay.




Maybe you'll find work in online sales.

[DocInChina]

I think Harry Chiling expressed well the anger many of us have felt when consumers came into our business for the basic purpose of stealing services from us. I have been out of the patient care environment for a number of years now but still recall the experiences. IzzyMac may not equate what she is doing with theft, but it certainly is that. She is using money that people have spent building their business. The money invested in a brick and mortar business includes construction, equipment pruchses, marketing, advertising, continuing education, hiring and training personnel and a large capital investment in inventory. She is taking advantage of the owners investment for the sole purpose of trying on product that the online source cannot offer in real life. The online company has minimum investment in any of the afore mentioned.

People forget that when they buy within their community, the profit dollars typically stay in their community and help other businesses grow. Their purchase provides tax revenue to fix roads, hire more police, increase spending for education, etc. Izzy Mac exemplifies the narrow thinking of all too many consumers.

Izzy Mac says in one of her posts

"If I buy my lenses online, and the eye doc I just saw did a good job examining my eyes, then short of being made wrong [that's happened to me twice at high end local optical shops who both gave me a hard time when I was seeing warped and they didn't know how to fix it! After weeks of suffering, I demanded my $ back and got a hard time about that too - then after much wrangling they gave it back.] it should be okay."

Izzy Mac is under the impression that the quality of the prescription entirely rests with the quality of the doctor. If only that were the case. As we all know, the doctor relies on the reliability of the feed back from the patient. In many cases the patient gives conflicting information which can be difficult (and sometimes impossible) to figure out. Given her negative experience with 2 optical shops I question her reasoning in thinking she can have success without direct contact with a professional.

I feel better now,
Doc

[Lady Nicole]

If I buy my lenses online, and the eye doc I just saw did a good job examining my eyes, then short of being made wrong it should be okay. ... As a life long eyeglass wearer, I know if the glasses are funky & not fit/made well.

This attitude is what bothers me the most. The glasses are either "made right" or "made wrong". It has everything to do with the doctor's work and nothing to do with the optician who measured/fit/checked them.

And with online ordering, you don't even have someone measuring/fitting/checking the glasses. I hope that Izzy will do more research online to learn how to adjust his/her own glasses and not expect an experienced optician who just lost a sale to do it gladly and for free.

[Conoid of Sturm]

I don't see why this is even being discussed. The stated purpose of this board is for professionals in the industry. I don't give a rat's *** if a consumer finds answers here any more than the I care whether or not idiots who go to hacker boards end up with viruses.
I think this is a great board for what it is, and if consumers want to start a board where they can seek answers they're too cheap to pay for, I'm sure that board will fill its niche as well.
Keep up the good work, Optiboard.

[Fezz]

IZZY you suck and if you come into my shop I will be more than happy to show you the door.

:D

Harry,
Why don't you tell us what you really think!

I have these patients too. We all do. They have there own businesses, or are private consultants, etc, who have no problem chargeing reasonable and many times unreasonable fees for there products and service. These same people think we should bascically burn in H*ll for the "premium costs" that we try to pass on! They are the first to b*tch and complain about there clients, customers who waste there time, buy online, try to get them to undo the mess, etc. These same folks then have no problem telling us how unfair and outrages our fees and prices are. They think that we all make a gazillion dollars a year, drive way fancy cars and wine and dine at the finest establishment. And then the kicker....."Will my insurance cover these?". Ok...what is your insurance? "Well you should know!".......

Yeah Harry...the Izzy's of the world ..DO SUCK!!!!


Fezz
:cheers:

[Optical Enigma]

The Izzys of the world are no different than an optician that buys anything on the internet that they tried in a store somewhere.

I believe that the same people in optical opposed to internet sales, would excircise the same practice in their own personal lives if it were any other product.

I suppose if you don't, you aren't a smart consumer, and the opposite of smart is...

[Andrew Weiss]

The Izzys of the world are no different than an optician that buys anything on the internet that they tried in a store somewhere.

I believe that the same people in optical opposed to internet sales, would excircise the same practice in their own personal lives if it were any other product.

I suppose if you don't, you aren't a smart consumer, and the opposite of smart is...

Maybe there are some of us who consciously choose to support our local businesses.

[Grubendol]

Steve!
Do you think it is possible to block spyders from Optiboard and send them all to Chris Ryser's website. I am shure they will find all the answers there!
Let the consumers bother the manufacturers (sorry Pete). At least we will know why are We paying so much for Hi indexes and brand name progressives! Or can we refer them directly to the manufacturers!
Maybe they are missing the dirrect contact with the public!

Well, but google is how I found this place and thank god for that!