Originally Posted by Judy Canty
I totally agree :cheers:
I would favor this forum and would subscribe to it.
I would favor this forum but not subscribe to it.
A private forum is unnessasary
I totally agree :cheers:
I agree :cheers:
We've actually cracked down on the consumer questions. It's one thing to want to broaden your knowledge on a topic but it's quite another to try and user OptiBoard in lieu of a personal visit with an eyecare professional.
The second question is exactly to the point. How do we (in reality 'I') determine who is a professional and who is not. It may come as a surprise to some, but not everyone on the Internet is who they claim to be. ;)
One possibility would be to open a forum for members with a minimum nuumber of posts. This would be default keep most non-professionals out, rinselberg not withstanding.
OptiBoard Administrator
----
OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.
I was just going to bring up Rinselberg. He's definitely part of our community.
I voted not necessary. Don't contribute to threads that you don't want to.
Pssssst.... don't tell the consumers, but when they ask a question, the first person to respond should tell them to see their ECP, and nobody else respond. Shhhhhhh!
I agree with Judy!
I don't make enough money to live in a gated community, but I would pay money to post in a gated forum!!
Yes you are a little fiesty this morning! I knew you had it in you!!:D
Well, excuuuuuuuse me.
I guess I wasn't aware that this was a "professionals-only" forum. When I first came here, I saw several posts and queries from consumers. Still do. So, naturally I thought this was a "mixed forum"...a little bit of both. But now I have to tell ya, it seems to be evolving into a rather snobby area for eyecare folks to put down consumers. Gawd, I'd hate to hear what you say to the customers you serve in person. I mean, come on...I appreciate and respect the profession of opticianery, but gee whiz, it's not like we're talking about brain surgeons or even MDs here. Some of you seem to think you're so important that "peons" like us consumers don't deserve to be recognized. Hey, y'all are consumers, too! Everyday you consumer something. So, please don't put yourselves on a pedestal and act like your training and experience makes you some sort of "eye Gods" or something. :finger:
We already have one. As the tagline says, it's for eyecare professionals. Why should eyecare professionals have to create yet another?
While I would certainly pay a fee for admission to a private forum, why not just close threads that are obviously written by consumers? If we don't answer the questions, eventually they'll find another yard to play in.
GoodAsGold
I am going to give you some unsolicited free advise. I see by your profile that you are a retired RN. I just happen to be married to one of those myself. If you want to get on the one nerve that Nurse Jane has left just call her or send her an email asking her to diagnose an ailment or comment on your present treatment. If you are having a problem and want advise present to an appropriate practitioner in an appropriate setting. That place ain’t here.
While I have your attention, perhaps you can help me. I seem to be having a lot of dyspepsia lately. It seems t occur while sitting at my computer checking out OptiBoard. What do you think it is. Is there anything I can take to relieve the symptoms.
By the way, this is sent to you with much love, respect and gratitude for a career of compassion and caring. You have been blessed as have all who came in your presence. Thank you.
I must admit, I usually do skip over the questions asked by the public; possibly because I get similar questions fired at me many times during the day.
So we have a choice, just don't get aggravated by these questions and don't look at them, or return to the old days of Optiboard when it was only enjoyed by those in various positions in the trade or profession.
There is VisionCareForums and its General discussion forum seems to be primarily consumer posts, and the members seem very happy to answer any/all consumer questions. Can an arrangement be made between OptiBoard and VisionCareForums whereby consumer posts on this forum can be redirected to that one.
If there were a friendly agreement with VisionCareForums, then on the subscription page you could say something like this ... OptiBoard is designed for eyecare professionals ... if you are a consumer with a question regarding your glasses, etc. please visit the following link ... questions of this nature are not answered/appropriate on this forum ..."
VisionCareForums might be happy to run with this idea if some of the OptiBoard members (that like answering consumer posts) chipped in and helped out with some of the posts on VisionCareForums.
Also, even though the posting guidelines have been revised I'm not sure they are clear enough ... consumers can post but exactly what kind of questions can they ask/can they not ask? On the subscription page it should be right in thier face ... we do not want you hear if you are just going to pester us with questions like ... or attempt to gain free professional advise about ... :finger:
I think that's a great suggestion ~ :cheers:
http://www.allaboutvision.com/
here's another great consumer site
What part of "The Premier Online Community for Eyecare Professionals" is so difficult to understand? And where do you get off suggesting that eyecare professionals need to find somewhere else to hold their discussions? Yahoo Groups? Are you kidding. Why not start a yahoo groups for eyecare consumers and you can all help each other?
Now I'm just plain old pi$$ed off. I've been at work for 34 years taking care of my customers and I've been coming to OptiBoard for 8 years happily comiserating or celebrating with my peers. It's cheaper and less fattening than hanging out at the local bar and I refuse to spend any time helping someone else second-guess another eyecare professional.
I am for it!
I always sugested a closed forum!
My main concern is inability to discuss and post wholesale prices!
PS Would the owner of an optical store considered a proffesional if he/she is not OD or MD or optician!?
I think GoodAsGold needs to keep in mind that this forum has been setup by professionals for professionals ... and us consumers are, at best, OptiBoard guests.
Last edited by mirage2k2; 03-16-2006 at 01:37 AM.
Amen, Judy! It amazes me that they come with a single question and then stay and participate in the discussions on the optical subjects. Is it that they just want a place to share? I don't understand it! :hammer:
As I recall Good as Gold came with a progressive issue and we spent 3 or 4 threads worth of GO BACK TO YOUR EYECRE PROFESSIONAL! I assume she did as she stopped complaining about the issue, but she is still here so what gives? I think starting her own Yahoo group is just the ticket! Give her something to occupy her time.
~Cindy
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-
It's been my experience that, in industries involving either complicated or expensive goods, consumers often deliberately "educate" themselves independently in order to make a purchase decision so that they can then price shop for the actual purchase. In many cases, they deliberately avoid seeking the personal guidance of a professional, since this implies a business relationship that many feel should be "rewarded" with an actual purchase. The Internet has simply facilitated this process by greatly expanding the availability of both 1) product information and 2) discount sellers.
Here are typical examples that I see frequently from these two categories: 1) A consumer researches automobiles on an Internet review / discussion forum, decides on particular vehicle, and then chooses a dealership who will sell that vehicle to him at the lowest cost, or conversely, 2) A consumer visits a local brick-and-mortar stereo and TV shop, seeks the advice of a sales professional (who spends his or her time educating him), and then finds a discount Internet distributor from which to buy the very product that the professional recommended. And this has certainly not made a positive impact in either of these industries.
Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case in the optical industry. However, if you consider the consumer questions on OptiBoard, the majority do indeed involve questions of the form, "Should I buy lens Brand A versus Brand B." Just visit the Progressive Lenses forum to see this firsthand. Many consumers would obviously feel that the answers to such questions would allow them to circumvent the advice of their local eyecare professionals. Though, in reality, when it comes to product recommendations, they are likely to find just as many differing answers on the OptiBoard as they would while visiting local eyecare professionals.
And finding knowledgeable eyecare professionals on the OptiBoard is not a substitute for finding knowledgeable eyecare professionals you can actually seek for service. As a matter of fact, I have seen very few -- if any -- consumers post a question like, "Who is the best optician or optometrist in Sometown, USA?" Further, if the consumer is trying to decided between Brand A and Brand B recommended on the Internet, there is no guarantee that his local eyecare professional will even offer either of those products.
Nevertheless, as I have suggested before, I think that fielding consumer questions regarding optics and vision in general should be welcome. And, again, OptiBoarders like Mirage and Rinselberg are good examples of consumers who are trying to increase their breadth of optical knowledge. Consumers wishing to pursue ophthalmic optics as a hobby may glean a great deal from OptiBoard, and could even be thought of as "quasi" eyecare professionals learning the trade.
However, as I have mentioned before, I don't know that consumers who are interested in choosing between product brands, or who distrust the advice of their own eyecare professional, will benefit much from OptiBoard. And I said this not as a reflection of the consumers asking such questions, or of the OptiBoard members attempting to answer them, but rather as a reflection of the inherent limitations in this type of resource (including its mode of communication) when it comes to something as potentially complex as vision and optics.
I think the original assertion was that many -- if not most -- of us have had formal education. OptiBoard comprises opticians, optometrists, sales representatives, optical executives, and even engineers. Very few of us are "academics" in the traditional sense of the word (after all, most of us are "professionals"). As for opticians, much of their training is in the form of on-the-job apprenticeship. Nevertheless, many of the opticians who frequent OptiBoard hold advanced certifications and/or applied science diplomas in ophthalmic dispensing.
But keep in mind that, unlike the airwaves, people have to pay to build and maintain the Internet.
Darryl J. Meister, ABOM
Amen, Sista ~ :cheers:
I think a private forum for optical professionals to discuss the issues Harry mentions would be a good idea. Just as one example: pricing of lenses and frames is something I'd like to discuss with other opticians/ODs on the board, but (like any other retailer) I don't want my consumers to be part of that conversation. For issues like that, I'd join the forum.
Otherwise, I agree with Judy: the easiest way to discourage consumers who are trying to get us to trouble-shoot problems we realistically can't diagnose well online is not to answer or to refer them back to their optician.
And my thanks to Steve, for starting and keeping the board going, and for being astute in shutting off inappropriate threads.
Just my 2 cents (well, $1 with inflation :bbg:)
Andrew
"One must remember that at the end of the road, there is a path" --- Fortune Cookie
it does seem a shame to ban all consumers from the board,however you do get rather annoyed when you see someone looking for free advice in order to buy online,or else they are looking for a reason to return their problem glasses to their ECP.
equally you get people like rinselberg who have greatly contributed to the diversity of this board,and would certainly be greatly missed.
perhaps a "pro" section of the board could be set up and only accesssed by ECPs, although how you decide who constitutes an ECP will be a tricky problem for the moderators of the forum.
by the way Steve, i have noticed recently how quickly non appropriate questions are being shut down, i think this will help to discourage inapropriate posts.
To find out what,s happening in the UK optical market:
http://theOptom.com
Thanks for the feedback everyone. So if we made a special restricted forum, what should determine gaining access to it.
Keep in mind that I am both lazy and aging so it has to be something reeaaal easy. :)
OptiBoard Administrator
----
OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.
I'm not sure how asking for opinions on say, lens brand, is akin to price shopping. As to for auto shopping, much different scenario, autos comprise a much wider market and are one-size-fits-all. The message here is consistently that you need to pay for service. As long as practicioners remain firm on price, nothing should change. I already knew there was a high markup on optical products before I even visited this board. There is also a high markup on say, fast food, but people do not go into McDonalds demanding a discount. If anything, prices have increased.
If you want to make automotive analogies I think a better comparison would be the business of automotive customizations. Certainly a high markup there when it comes to materials. But again, the value is in the labor, and if someone does good work, their price is justified.
If anything, those who "don't trust their eyecare professional" are the ones who need support in order to go ahead with a purchase decision.
As far as Internet shopping, certainly no one here has encouraged that. So, if anything, once again, this board serves to further the purpose of the independent practicioner. I am certainly a "bargain shopper" when it comes to items like TV's and electronics, because I don't need the service, I am solely paying for delivery of the product. People who need help hooking things up often come to me for help! (and I'm not even a professional!)
I worked in music retail several years ago and customers would frequently try to gain knowledge that would allow them to buy online. That was much easier to do. A keyboard's abilities do not require customization and fitting to the customer's hands, and the sounds speak for themselves, they do not depend on qualities of the customer themself.
As a salesperson all you can do is try to show the value in your service. And I did win some loyal customers. I gave them enough discount to make them feel they were winning the game. I knew when to be firm. I got them to focus on the product but placed more emphasis on the excitement of the product and the enjoyment of giving me the sale. If their requests for product info consistently crossed the line into what would be considered training, I handed out my other card, as an independent consultant. It's important to keep things fun. You need to give customers quality but people will generally decide based on their feelings, so you have to leave them with a good one. balance is important. I won't buy from someone who is all hype (which happens a lot in mass retail). I also will walk if someone treats me with a haughty air and makes no attempt to step a little bit outside the professional mindset and see eye-to-eye as a fellow human being. I know this may sound like an elementary lesson to some, but I have encountered this a lot in the optical industry and what drove me to consider Internet buying in the first place. (which, after what I know now, I will not do...just have to wait to find the right person to work with.)
As for the question of who is the best in my area....I have asked that question. And got nary an answer, which I find puzzling. I live in a major metropolis. perhaps no one here is up to the challenge? Anyway, I was highly disappointed in the lack of response.
ps. I'm shopping for new glasses right now. Hint, hint.
consumer questions regarding optics and vision are actually those frequently derided by those who feel that the consumer does not need to know any technical details. It is no wonder that people are simply asking "what is better, a or b?" Trying to participate in any advanced discussion is frequently met with scorn.
As for my "academics" comment, please don't take that as a discredit to your training or credentials! As you said, you are "professionals," involved in business, not theory. Although it should be said that many academic institutions are becoming more business oriented and sacrificing ideals in favor of student demands and enrollment.
While many consumers do not have formal optical training, there are certainly many who have academic degrees, and understand enough math and physics to participate in meaningful discussion. I spend much more time behind my glasses, than I do behind say, an auto. So I want to know more about how I see!
Then there are those who have not yet established themselves in the profession. Either they are formal students or perhaps informal students such as myself, who might consider a future career change. Believe it or not, I have spent much more time reading than I have posting. I certainly hope you consider me one of those who seeks understanding, not just answers.
If I were denied access, I dunno, maybe I would spend more time on the Usenet group. But you guys are better! :)
People have to pay to maintain the airwaves too. Public funds, public airwaves, are increasingly dominated by corporate interest. Just because money is taken in the form of tax, does not mean that you are not paying. Here is a good resource and an opportunity to make your voice heard on issues concerning the FCC, etc...But keep in mind that, unlike the airwaves, people have to pay to build and maintain the Internet.
http://www.freepress.net/
Something flexible enough to allow the consumers like me (that have a genuine interest in the field) to join. Of course I would say that wouldn't I :D
What about a test ... that your average consumer will not pass and will not spend days on the internet learning enough to pass! Or they have to have passed some recognised beginner level exam ... that can be done over the internet.
What about subscription by request, i.e. they have to email optiboard with their reasons for wanting to join, stating profession, background, etc. An administrator then allows/rejects the request.
Did you consider the idea of redirecting consumer posts to another more consumer oriented forum?
If you stick with the current forum make it more obvious upon subscription the nature of the forum, dos and don'ts, etc. If new subscribers do not obey the rules then kick em off :)
William Shakespeare
This thread reminds me of a Shakespeare title "Much Ado About Nothing". :D
But before I go further I want to say that I am happy to see that my previous advice is being taken seriously in spite of the belittling treatment I received from our resident gadfly.
Sure there ought to be a separate group for eyecare professionals only. To me that almost seems like a no-brainer. You people want to have a place to talk amongst yourselves without others listening in.
I think you shouldn’t change the current general discussion forum, the professionals only forum should just be a new addition like the Progressive Lens forum was.
As for how to tell who should be let into the new forum, well, an eyecare professional can tell who the fakers are, right? I mean if a faker pretended to be a computer programmer, I feel pretty sure that I could smoke them out given a little time.
So, admit all the known eyecare professionals and retirees into the new group to start with. Then when a newcomer asks for admission to the group, tell them that they have to post in the general discussion forum for a while. They can help out with the consumer questions that are within the current posting guidelines. They shouldn’t mind doing this because they are newcomers and are not tired of answering these questions like the old hands are. After a while it should be obvious whether they are really eyecare professionals, and they can be admitted to the new group.
I also submit that under this scheme, the present attitude towards consumers could be relaxed just a little. They could be given a few pointers to get them going in the right direction, as opposed to just bringing the axe down immediately as is being done now.
Steve Machol, it will be up to you to decide who fits the bill for entrance into the new forum. You can get input from the moderators and others but the final choice is up to you. You are the founder and owner of this forum, and you can do whatever you like with it and you need not apologize to anyone for it. If anyone tries to call you a tyrant or a dictator, pay no attention. This is but a standard tactic that is used by trolls everywhere. Every successful forum has always had a strong hand to lead it, and the trolls know this very well. They will try to interfere with this by making you feel guilty. Don’t fall for it.
Always remember, there will be fakers and people who will try to gain entrance into places where they don’t belong, just because it is there and it is a challenge. Remember what I said before about the wild west. Just like it was back then, on the Internet things are not always what they seem, and people are not always who they claim to be. My new sig ought to illustrate this well.
Wishing the best for all you eyecare professionals,
"John Sheridan"
I think that this discussion about a private forum "for optical professionals only" is really only to address two needs-
1) to give opticians a place to carry on discussions which are inappropriate for a public forum, mostly costs and pricing.
2) to give opticians a place to talk with each other about their craft without the continual "give me information for free because I don't want to talk to my hometown optician about it" questions, which have become significantly more persistent over the last several months.
I think that a private forum for opticians would be a welcome improvement to the board, but it should only be used for those conversations that truly need to be "for opticians only" such as pricing and costs. Every other topic is acceptable for Optiboard and should remain public. After all, this is a public message board.
As far as the consumer questions- Yes, they were getting out of hand for a while there. I think that the moderators have done an excellent job in curbing the frequency of posts from consumers trying to have their specific needs diagnosed. Closing the threads early is very effective. We Optiboarders need to be firm in that we are not here as a free clinic. If a patient asks a question that needs to be addressed by their own optician, we should say so, and not encourage more questions by attempting to answer. We can't diagnose individual cases online. Period. Once we are unified in that respect, we will see the number of inappropriate consumer questions decrease again.
Now I do recognize that consumers are a major part of the population of this community, even though it was designed for eyecare professionals. Maybe a few articles could be written by a some of our more knowledgeable professionals on general subjects like progressive lenses, what does my prescription mean, etc.? Then we could refer questions to those articles. If the article is not enough, they need to go back to their ECP or optician. In this way we can help to educate consumers without becoming a replacement for their primary eye care professionals.
Now another issue bouncing around here is defining "optical professional". Who would be allowed on this forum? How do you determine if a person has the level of knowledge that you would expect from an experienced optician? There are some very experienced people on this board. There are also some very inexperienced people on this board. There are no regulating factors from state to state that define "optician" and our profession as a whole is very fractured in regards to the definition of an optician.
In my opinion the only all-encompassing measure of skill and education (at least in the United States) is the ABO's levels of certification. I would suggest that a private forum, if created, be only for those opticians who hold current certifications. What level of certification I think I'll leave up to the creators of this Board. It could be one private forum, or maybe three- one for ABOC, one for ABOC-A, and one for ABOM. I know this means excluding possibly many people who are very skilled opticians, but it will also draw attention to the fact that certification is a desireable thing to have. As far as my international brothers and sisters in the field, I am not knowledgeable enough about your levels of certification to be able to make any intelligent suggestions. Perhaps someone else could take this idea and improve on it for me.
In short, my opinion is this- the Optiboard is going through some growing pains, but I think overall it is just fine. I am willing to support a private area "for professionals" only, but I think it will be limited to only a few topics and that implementing guidelines on who will be allowed is going to be very very difficult.
It's like being a travel agent... I help people see the world!
Well said, I will say that it is very frusterating to field the continually planted "consumer" questions. I also would really enjoy the opportunity to discuss pricing for exams, cl fits, frame ratios and the such, its nice to make sure you are in line. Couldnt we just list our practice name and a phone call to that place would verify your employment. Just a thought.
Cindy
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks