Healthcare/Convince me

**mrba** · 07-12-2004, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Machol

Really? Are you not able to see a direct correlation (albeit maybe not perfect, whatever that means) between the two? The fact is when healthcare costs rise, so do costs for medical insurance. The two are connected. It's basic economics really.

Not even close to perfect. I would love to see someone show a correlation coefficient with some nifty econometrics... I am not saying they aren't related, in fact I am more interested in the inverse correlations of profits, fraud etc...

**Steve Machol** · 07-12-2004, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Not even close to perfect. I would love to see someone show a correlation coefficient with some nifty econometrics... I am not saying they aren't related, in fact I am more interested in the inverse correlations of profits, fraud etc...

I admit it. You lost me. What are you talking about?

**chm2023** · 07-12-2004, 12:45 PM

Steve, check out today's USA Today op-ed page. Interesting article that talks about a program in Michigan that reviews lawsuits prior to the litigants being able to go forward with their cases. If the panel judges a suit has no merit, the litigant may elect to go ahead, but now with a proviso that should he lose, he assumes all costs associated with case. Which of course has a dampening affect on baseless cases.

It points out the real hogs at the trough here are the insurance companies, moreso than the lawyers.

And meanwhile, with the system circling the drain, it's comforting to know that our esteemed president is dealing with the really weighty matters, a constitutional amendment (which would have a snowball's chance of standing up to judicial review) outlawing gay marriage.

I guess he doesn't know how to fiddle.

**shanbaum** · 07-12-2004, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by chm2023

And meanwhile, with the system circling the drain, it's comforting to know that our esteemed president is dealing with the really weighty matters, a constitutional amendment (which would have a snowball's chance of standing up to judicial review) outlawing gay marriage.

A constitutional amendment wouldn't have to stand up to judicial review - that's why the righteous brethren of the right are advocating it.

In fact, the proposal has a snowball's chance of garnering the support of two-thirds of the House and Senate (as it must, before going on to the states, three-fourths of which must ratify for the attempt to succeed).

So, this is the highest form of political theatre, intended to demonstrate the superior holiness of the Taliban, oh, sorry, Republican party.

**chm2023** · 07-12-2004, 01:26 PM

I find it hard to imagine that 2/3s of the Senate would go for this. Let's hope I'm right.:drop:

**shanbaum** · 07-12-2004, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by chm2023

I find it hard to imagine that 2/3s of the Senate would go for this. Let's hope I'm right.

They won't. That was my ultimate point.

**walt** · 07-12-2004, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by shanbaum

Well, actually, if you go back to the post which started this thread, you'll be hard-pressed to find the word "insurance" therein.

Well, actually, here's a quote from therein post...

"As for me, my ex wife was a state employee and...well...we had the best of the best coverage. I rarely paid for anything. Since the divorce, Ive had to go on the program my work offers (A small business type plan) And well....It really sucks, comparitively speaking. Today, for instance, I spent $90.00 at the dentist. (A visit that was free before) And I was told Ill probably have to pay another $200.00 by fall. (Again...free under state plan) So Im thinking, whats wrong with a national health care plan? And would it help ME?"

You're right, he doesn't use the word "insurance". What the hell was I thinking? :hammer:

I figure, it's probably a good idea, when considering a problem, to have at least a minimal grasp of the facts, and a good place to begin, is to cut through the obvious fallacies.

Very profound. See above.

**mrba** · 07-12-2004, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Machol

I admit it. You lost me. What are you talking about?

Shanbaum doesn't like plain english without lots of facts so I was trying to be a bit acedemic.

I believe the ties of healthcare costs and insurance costs are correlated, but not sure how much. It would be nice to see all of the costs involved so that other factors can be examined. It is hard to argue that insurance shouldn't be expensive because a new life saving machine is invented that is expensive. On the other hand, fraud for example, may be more readily stopped... Yeah right! Or over compensated insurance companies etc.

**chm2023** · 07-12-2004, 01:55 PM

Duh. Having a particularly dense day.

I think I should go home and pull the covers over my head until tomorrow. Or drink a lot of my husband's single malt Scotch and replace it with the cheap blended stuff. Heh, heh, heh.

**walt** · 07-12-2004, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by walt

You little crazies are all over the board today, aren't you?

What started as Night Train looking for a free tooth job has developed into the cost of Coke in Iraq. :hammer:
Must be a slow day.

Add gay marriage. Thanks cmh2023. Thanks shanbaum.

**mrba** · 07-12-2004, 01:56 PM

You're right, he doesn't use the word "insurance". What the hell was I thinking? :hammer:

Walt,
Please read back a few. To Shanbaum innuendo for the purpose of making a point that is only implied is unnacceptable...

**walt** · 07-12-2004, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by chm2023

Duh. Having a particularly dense day.

I think I should go home and pull the covers over my head until tomorrow. Or drink a lot of my husband's single malt Scotch and replace it with the cheap blended stuff. Heh, heh, heh.

Sounds like you're already in the midst of doing that. :cheers:

**walt** · 07-12-2004, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Walt,
Please read back a few. To Shanbaum innuendo for the purpose of making a point that is only implied is unnacceptable...

He shall learn the error of his ways.

**shanbaum** · 07-12-2004, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by walt

Add gay marriage. Thanks cmh2023. Thanks shanbaum.

Well, I suppose that was a little off-topic, but then, these threads do wander.

The discussion in this thread, in any case, has in fact been about the cost of healthcare, not just about the cost of insurance, which is a specious distinction in any case; I suspect you attempted to assert this distinction because you didn't like the fact that I pointed out that you made an erroneous statement about the contribution of malpractice suits to "the problem", and you thought that it would make an effective red herring.

Now, we could either chat about healthcare, or you could continue to try to recover from the obvious discomfort you feel from having had your misstatement of fact pointed out by attempting to discredit what I write with inadequate, frivolous, and unrelated assertions.

Or, I don't care, we could chat about gay marriage.

**shanbaum** · 07-12-2004, 04:01 PM

The Supply-Side Solution:

As I wrote earlier, the principal cause of rising healthcare costs is the inelasticity in demand for health.

Since there's really not much that can be done about that, the solution has to be in increasing supply.

Therefore, the government should immediately fund medical educations for as many prospective doctors as can qualify, thus flooding the market with doctors in a few short years.

Hospitals? Medical centers? Underwrite as many business plans loans as appear remotely sound.

Oh, and, to keep malpractice costs down - we'll do the same for lawyers!

**Night Train** · 07-12-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by shanbaum

The Supply-Side Solution:

As I wrote earlier, the principal cause of rising healthcare costs is the inelasticity in demand for health.

Since there's really not much that can be done about that, the solution has to be in increasing supply.

Therefore, the government should immediately fund medical educations for as many prospective doctors as can qualify, thus flooding the market with doctors in a few short years.

Hospitals? Medical centers? Underwrite as many business plans loans as appear remotely sound.

Oh, and, to keep malpractice costs down - we'll do the same for lawyers!

Heh heh heh...Shanbaum...you are the best!:cheers:

**Steve Machol** · 07-12-2004, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Shanbaum doesn't like plain english without lots of facts so I was trying to be a bit acedemic.

You didn't quite make it. Sorry. ;)

Originally Posted by mrba

I believe the ties of healthcare costs and insurance costs are correlated, but not sure how much. It would be nice to see all of the costs involved so that other factors can be examined.

Here's the factors I see:

1. Healthcare costs. Obviously the higher the cost of the services covered, the higher the cost of the insurance to covert these services. Again this is basic economics and I don't think it's that difficult to understand.

2. Demand for healthcare services. Again obviously, if there was no demand for healthcare services, then the effect prices have on insurance costs would be nil. No matter how high the cost, if no one ever used the services the cost of insurance would be little or nothing. Now I think we can all agree that the demand for healthcare is not having a significant impact on lowering insurance costs.

There may be other factors I couldn't think of so please feel free to add them. Howevder I'd be surprised if anyone could provide any reliable evidence that healthcare costs themselves are not the major factor in the cost of medical insurance.

**mrba** · 07-12-2004, 06:43 PM

I don't know if demand is inelastic if there are those that would rather die and decrease the surplus population.

E.S.:bbg:

However, supply could also be increased with preventative medicine, and alternative medicine... But the drug companies wouldn't really want that.

**Steve Machol** · 07-12-2004, 09:27 PM

Yes, supply is a good point. In fact many people are gravitatiing toward 'alternate' medicine because either: 1) the cost of traditional medicine is too high, or 2) traditional medicine has been ineffective in their cases. Interstingly though, many alternate methods are now covered by insurance - probably because the insurance companies see this as low-cort alternated to traditional medicine.

Actually your post reminds me of another issue that affects medical insurance costs - advances in technology and pharmaceuticals. However even here, this is directly fed into the cost of providing healthcare so in essence it is part of the cost equation.

**walt** · 07-13-2004, 11:17 AM

"According to a recent study, the healthcare insurance industry alone spends an estimated $250 billion or more annually on labor-intensive, paper-based processing."

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...ustry%22&hl=en

**walt** · 07-13-2004, 12:26 PM

"Many Hawaii doctors will see a 40 percent hike in their medical malpractice insurance costs over two years."

"Many physicians may have to leave the practice in Hawaii," he said. "If something doesn't give we're going to have a real crisis here."

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/s...y5.html?page=1

**walt** · 07-13-2004, 12:55 PM

"The Institute of Medicine (IOM) Report, "To Err is Human: Building a Safer Health System", was released in November, 1999 and served to highlight the seriousness of medical errors in health care. The IOM Report indicated that at least 44,000 Americans die each year as a result of medical errors and may be as high as 98,000. Even when using the lower estimate, more people die in a given year from medical errors than from motor vehicle accidents, breast cancer or AIDS. And, the above estimates do not include any deaths resulting from medical errors in non-hospital settings (e.g., physicians' offices, home care)."

Undisclosed is how many more have been crippled, disfigured and/or turned into vegies for life.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh...nfo/pscimr.htm

Odd that we don't have an organization named "Mothers Against Medical Malpractice" (MAMM). Guess there's no money in it.

**mrba** · 07-13-2004, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by walt

"Many Hawaii doctors will see a 40 percent hike in their medical malpractice insurance costs over two years."

Shanbaum, does your .3% figure include the cost of malpractice insurance? When i reference lawsuits, I am including all costs incurred to the industry, not just awards in court.

**walt** · 07-13-2004, 01:48 PM

"Some doctors are refusing medical treatment to lawyers, their families and their employees except in emergencies, and the doctors are urging the American Medical Association to endorse that view." :D

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...practice_x.htm