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Thread: Patternless Edgers

  1. #1
    Rising Star
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    Hello all;

    I am thinking about getting a New Edger. I am leaning toward a patternless one. if you own one, what have you had problems with, and which one does the best job on all materials. Your opinions will help in my decision. Thanks.

    Jim Seebach

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder Texas Ranger's Avatar
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    Jim, I went patternless about '92 with a Briot Scanform; really a nice machine; did do much with poly back then. in '96 went went to a optronics horizon iii, have been really pleased with this unit, would get one of their new 6E models if i could justify the upgrade, but hey, I don't have any complaints, and we've run 35K lenses. the unit does not do glass, but does a fast, quiet, highly accurate job on poly, hi index, etc. on glass, we just send the frames to the lab. we do 3 glass rxs a month. Environmentally, you don't have any sludge like in wet edging; the horizon just collects the lens shaving in a shop vac bag, which is easliy disposed of, not messy or smelly. Anyway, I could go yada yada about how great it is, but I will ad that the people have always been first class to deal with, and our buddy Ken Van Cleave works for them. 'nuf sed. Al.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
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    Confused

    Originally posted by Jim Seebach:
    Hello all;

    I am thinking about getting a New Edger. I am leaning toward a patternless one. if you own one, what have you had problems with, and which one does the best job on all materials.
    Jim,

    I've used the Gamma(Essilor),Santinelli, Briot, Weco and worked around a few others.
    First thing I would ask is what amount of work you think you will be cranking out? What are you calling "mix of materials"? Is that including glass?...
    Alot will depend on who you talk to and how long they have had it :-) I know that everyone that has just gotten a new patternless (especially if its their first one) who tell me the same thing .."it never needs adjusting and it cuts perfect everytime".. of course around three months into it they usually are tinkering with the cut out etc. etc...but it still is faster then a pattern system. Me? I have the Briot's in my lab and from start to finish it takes around a couple of minutes from scanning to inserting to complete one pair..no hunting for patterns etc. etc.... I have used "dry" edgers but prefer the wet..nicer cutting the high index ..also being able to control the second cycle a little better sure makes it nice (no more whacking off the corners on a crazy sharp angled frame :-)I also developed my own chart so I can "resize" lens cut out diameter by a simple imput of a number on my screen..real nice because I do alot of "circumfrence" work.. Also I can raise and lower the carriage with a button as slow or fast as I want..
    I lean towards the Briot because they are about the easiest to work on..I can do it myself. Also getting replacement parts I go through a company called Nestor and get good deals on any wheels etc...
    The Edger I run has cut around (i think)90,000 cuts (it's 3 1/2 years old)I have had to replace one bearing in the shaft that holds the wheels and thats about it..oh and one roughing wheel.
    When it comes down to it more or less they are close to being the same now a days..some have a little more bells and whistles..check out the other board (I thinks its the one where people are selling stuff) I seen someone selling a Briot 6000 patternless for $6,800.. in a Briot (not the new ones) the scanner unit sits beside the edger and is connected to it..
    Depending on what type of frames you are using you may want to get one with a scanner that traces both sides...
    The other thing is if you are going to network it, either into a existing system or via "remote" tracer you may want to check out a Santinelli.. Briot is developing a remote tracer but I don't know if they have it available yet.
    If you are good with machinery .. understand how to fix stuff then get one thats a couple of years old and save yourself some money.. I know mine still runs like a top and I'm closing in on the 100,000 mark :-).. I keep it well oiled and cut every material but glass.
    Well atleast this is my humble opinion .. BTW I love going to Auctions. this is a good place to find some pretty good deals.. All this is just my opinion .. and NO I do not work for any of the companies I talked about.


    Jeff T


  4. #4
    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    We just leased a new Briot CX & are very happy with it. You can adjust the calibration for poly, plastic & glass individually. The determining factor for us is that we have a local sales rep & a local service technician. It looked easy enough to get around the inside of, but since its brand new we haven't had the need. From asking around it seemed to be the most stable for linking a remote tracer to as well. That was another consideration.

    I hope you're having fun & making money!!

  5. #5
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    Jim,
    We all have our favorite machines. I personally prefer the Optronics III. It doesn't have all of the bells and whistles as the 6E but it does a remakable job with little or no upkeep. I got the first one 4.5 years ago and has 80,000 lenses on it. I replaced an old II last year and the new machine has 25,000 lenses on it. It is already to go for remote site tracing. We have been doing it successfully for the past 4.5 years. With the small blade radius you get a much more accurate shape and much truer circumferance with one cut. With remote sites everything you do is by circumferance. What we have found is that the circumferance that shows on the screen is what you get.
    If you are doing glass this machine is out. I do not like changing coolant buckets or having the mess of them foaming over.
    Like I say everyone has their favorite and their opinions, just offered what works for us.
    Jerry

  6. #6
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Redhot Jumper

    Originally posted by Jim Seebach:
    Hello all;

    I am thinking about getting a New Edger. I am leaning toward a patternless one. if you own one, what have you had problems with, and which one does the best job on all materials. Your opinions will help in my decision. Thanks.

    Jim Seebach

    Howdy Jim,

    If you are doing enough business to warrant having to hire someone to do the cutting for you that may not be well professed at edging then get a patternless. If you are doing all of your finish work DON'T go patternless.

    I have worked with the Santinelli - Good machine, capable of many functions and materials. The cons are getting someone out to service the equipment and the time expectancy before having problems with the machine is about a year and a half. The one I worked on started having problems after a year and a half as did three other Santinellis being used by some other friends of mine. Just a heads up for you.

    The Briot Scan form - What can we say about the Briot Scan form? ;-) Well, it will cut lenses without a pattern, other than that they are quirky machines. The old Briot units (pre-patternless) could be fixed with parts from a refrigerator repair shop and lasted a long time. The new patternless machines are a different story. They are a pain to work on and if you don't work on them yourself it will cost you a minimum of $365.00 just to have someone look at it. Sometimes you have to pay travel expenses plus room and board on top of this fee.

    The Gamma I'm not too familiar with, but would be willing to guess they ain't cheap nor would it be cheap to work on.

    The Horizon machines are fairly low maintenance and fast in the cutting process, but noisy (cabinet or no cabinet) and messy (vacuum or not). You can't do glass on them but you can do any type of plastic material under the sun. Do be forewarned that if the computer controls for the patternless option should go out it won't be cheap to fix.

    Warranties on all of these machines aren't what I would consider to be very good especially when you consider the amount of money they cost.

    I've done the computer thing and have gone back to running two pattern operated machines. As the volume we do increases I will buy another pattern operated edger or two and handle it that way. When they build one of the patternless machines that will handle a good volume without as many problems and with less outlay of cash for repair I might consider one again, but until then I'll stick to the old fashion way.

    Take care,

    Darris "I don't have any down time." Chambless



  7. #7
    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    Well, in 25 years I have used almost everyone of them, but I just bought an Optronics 6-e. I love it. Of course, I have it hooked into my computer and generator, so the amout of time to fabricate a complete job is less than a half an hour.
    If you are considering a wet edger, I have always been a big fan of Briot.

  8. #8
    Bad address email on file stephanie's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone! We have a Santinelli and it is a terrific machine when it is running right. Unfortunately, it is terribly abused by us with the amount of jobs we do in just a day. We do what we can to service it ourselves,but most of us have no clue on what it really needs. We have major sizing problems and have to adust quite often. We have also had to replace our tracer 4 times. 2 of which were last month! If the machine were properly serviced by people who really knew how to work on it, I am quite sure that it would be a fantastic machine. It is VERY noisy!! Of course like I said our machine is very abused!
    Have a great day!
    Steph

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    We run 12 - 50 jobs a day on the santenilli.
    The tracer is excellent but its life span is short between repairs or replacements.. Be sure you are interested in a 3D tracer (includes tracing for base curve and bevel line up).
    Using the automatic safety bevel control slows down production considerably. System is not noisy, but there are quieter ones. System also has a smaller footprint than most. Polishes nicely on automatic rimless mode.

    I like the ability to overrride automatic and go manual (they call it passive mode), because this system and all others do the decentration. So, if it can't do the job, it tells you and you can manually do the job.

    Keep the "sant" clean inside, and do your maintenance and calibration seriously and it will serve you well. But, remember . . these machines are digital and you "ain't" in control no matter what, no way, no how.

    The weakest member of the system is the tracer. Expect downtime even if it is one of the best.



  10. #10
    Sawptician PAkev's Avatar
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    I have the AIT Maxima System which saves a lot of lab real-estate for all the functions it provides. It is nearing one year old and I haven't had to do anything to it besides regular preventive maintenance. We edge around 6-8 jobs per day and take care of it very well with anticipation it will continue to provide several years of service to us.

    I've used the Optronics dry edging system but found it a hastle to routinely purchase and change the blades. On a wet edger you can simply cycle the machine and use a dressing stick to tune up the diamond wheel. We also didn't feel the noise of a vacum, edger motor, and compressor would be conducive to our retail environment which is exposed to lab noises. The dry unit we had also was notorious for static buildup which caused spontaneous chuck release and other electronic problems.

    A patternless edger is only as good as it's tracer. A tracer that scans the profile of both eyewires simutaneously will give better results than scanning only one eyewire and uses the same profile for the opposing side.

    Although I never took advantage of it, I understand some manufacturer reps will set up a demo unit in your lab on a trial basis for a couple of weeks so you can evaluate the performance and determine if it will meet you r needs.

    Kevin




    [This message has been edited by PAkev (edited 03-09-2001).]

  11. #11
    since 1964 Homer's Avatar
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    FYI there is an article in Visioncare product News on patternless edging. It is a new publication with lots of good info.

    Personally, I can't think of a good reason to not go patternless - it will pay for itself in time saved not to speak of making or storing patterns.

    There will be a seminar at EyeQuest on the subject.

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder Texas Ranger's Avatar
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    In a previuos post, Darris said that the Horizon patternless was "noisy and messy", which it is neither, I just upgraded to Optronic's new 6E and have really been pleased with the improvements over the Horizon, but the Horizon is a far better unit than any wet cutting unit out there.

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    I have a Horizon II drycut (pattern) edger. Works great it is 5 years old. The only thing I have done is standard maintanance. Blades last about 700 cuts. Blades cost 15.00 per pair. The new models are quiet much quieter. I have a AIT Grande Mark for glass. You have to do a ton of jobs for a patternless to be worth it. You can buy new pattern edgers for 5000.00 to 7000.00, you know what patternless cost.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder Texas Ranger's Avatar
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    Matthew, I am trying to sell my Horizon III for 12K, a good value for a patternless with low mileage, they are so very much better that the II., and it's not just the noise factor.

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