CR-39 vs. Polycarbonate

[drk]

Whew! Pretty harsh words there drk!

It is interesting to note that Germany, Austria and the UK do not agree with you at all.

there is clear room for discussion on this point.

Where's the beef? Anyone have anything other than "I hate it" "we hate it" "they hate it"?

[NAICITPO]

Where's the beef? Anyone have anything other than "I hate it" "we hate it" "they hate it"?

This is my problem too, it's the dogmatic rhetoric. It's cool to hate on poly.

If your point is trivex is better than poly that's fine. But saying polycarbonate sucks because it has a low abbe value when it isn't an issue for 99.999% of people who use it? Seriously how many cases of aversion have you really seen? I've been doing this for 15 years and I have seen maybe 10. I worked for the evil empire at a mall for a large part of that time--so I have dispensed A LOT of poly.

Imagine there are two cars, both have the same 0-60 time, but one car goes faster from 100-160. Cool, but I never go 100-160 in my car so how does that benefit me? And now you want me to pay more for the same car that has a feature that doesn't help me?

Yes, trivex has better features than poly, but how much do these features benefit the customer?

"If a tree falls in a forest but there is no one there to hear it—is there a noise. That is an interesting philosophical question that we will probably never have the answer for. On the other hand if there is chromatic aberration at a point on a lens where no one looks—is there a problem with optical clarity? Now that is a question that millions of polycarbonate and other high-index lens lens wearers have already answered, and the answer is: NO."

-Michael DiSanto

[Elvis Is Alive]

I've sold more poly lenses than any other material in my career. I'm sure that is true for most opticians these days.

Some of the inherent problems with poly have been pointed out.

For most, poly is good enough especially when insurance co-pays come into play.

IMO, for most average rx's, trivex clearly has best combination of clarity, weight, thickness, impact resistance, etc.

There are use cases for all lens materials, but when trivex is only $5 more per set of lenses at cost than poly, it's a no brainer for me.

Granted, it is much harder to convince insurance pts to pay a higher co-pay for trivex.

My point is there is really only one reason to sell poly over trivex: Because that is what the vision plans dictate to you.

[NAICITPO]

I've sold more poly lenses than any other material in my career. I'm sure that is true for most opticians these days.

Some of the inherent problems with poly have been pointed out.

For most, poly is good enough especially when insurance co-pays come into play.

IMO, for most average rx's, trivex clearly has best combination of clarity, weight, thickness, impact resistance, etc.

There are use cases for all lens materials, but when trivex is only $5 more per set of lenses at cost than poly, it's a no brainer for me.

Granted, it is much harder to convince insurance pts to pay a higher co-pay for trivex.

My point is there is really only one reason to sell poly over trivex: Because that is what the vision plans dictate to you.

Essentially same weight thickness and impact resistance, so the only thing different is clarity. And as I pointed out there really isn't a clarity issue for 99.99% of the people who wear it. What else you got?

And I agree that it's largely because of insurance, but it is also a factor of availability and cost too.

[dima]

@NAICITPO It Is not only abbe, even High quality poly (and coat) have a worst tintability, color last less, and scratch easily as compared to MR series.

[wmcdonald]

Good grief. This is an example of what happens when just about anyone can be called an Optician. Initially, if you take the time to look up the history of polycarbonate lenses, you'll find it was junk material not considered for Ophthalmic lenses. Manufacturing and lab processes have been improved over the years, and they are an excellent choice for the right use. Learn something before calling yourself a professional. You're killing us!

[drk]

My concern is that we have a newer optician asking a legitimate question and instead of giving measured advice of pro's/con's, we're giving opinions stated as fact. The original poster will be exasperated or confused.

[dima]

@wmcdonald


Excuse me are you talking to me?

Poly market in 90-2000 Years Is all for rimless frame...we had not choice.

Now we have so much materials

In Europe, the poly market in recent years has collapsed. Some small companies don't even have it in their catalog anymore.

Are they all mad? Are they all unprofessional sir?

Poly Is a good choice for some jobs (Safty job, some sport)

Poly Is also cheap and is an advantage for those who cannot spend much money


When I think of a high-quality material, I have no doubt I think of trivex and the MR8 series, that's all.

also think about how market logics influence ... In Europe or Asia trivex or mr are not so expensive likes in the Usa.

Poly Is the king in Usa for insurance policies.

Last but not least
Also you can improve but RX lenses in poly (or trivex) have very bad tintability and durability.

It is physics not magic! On poly or trivex you can tint only the hardcoat.

Do we want eyewear that lasts perfectly 3 years? Poly Is good, Great, but on higher level products where the customer wants perfect color durability for years we have to use something else.

[drk]

I don't think the argument is whether polycarbonate is the finest material with which we have to work. It has limitations, obviously.

Yes, there are other materials with different and sometimes superior qualities, depending on the application.

Emphasis on "depending on the application".

I wouldn't be happy if I were trying to get a new countertop for my kitchen and I were only offered quartz (or whatever) because "it's the finest there is". I'd want my options, and I'd want an honest discussion.

"High-quality" is therefore a subjective statement, actually.

[dima]

+1 true.

We have choice, we have different clients and glasses.

I do not blame cheap thing, only i call them with its pro and cons.

I have a thousand plano sunglasses in poly, i don't burn them.

[Uilleann]

As usual, the opinions rage, and the actual science is widely ignored. Grabs more popcorn. Yinz is a wild bunch LOLZ!

[bsst24]

To date myself, when I started Optometrist's were telling clients not to buy CR-39 because they wouldn't see as well as with glass.

[NAICITPO]

I don't think the argument is whether polycarbonate is the finest material with which we have to work. It has limitations, obviously.

Yes, there are other materials with different and sometimes superior qualities, depending on the application.

Emphasis on "depending on the application".

I wouldn't be happy if I were trying to get a new countertop for my kitchen and I were only offered quartz (or whatever) because "it's the finest there is". I'd want my options, and I'd want an honest discussion.

"High-quality" is therefore a subjective statement, actually.

But isn't it easier just to say polycarbonate sucks and be done with it? I mean after all it does have low abbe! Why would you bother to have any nuance in the conversation?

[NAICITPO]

@NAICITPO It Is not only abbe, even High quality poly (and coat) have a worst tintability, color last less, and scratch easily as compared to MR series.

If I need a tinted lens I can use a lens material that is more apt for tinting. But if I never sold another tinted lens in my life I would go home and open up a bottle of champagne and celebrate. Tint jobs bring me a lot of headaches (it's too dark, it's not dark enough, it's not the exact color they were wanting, wanting a high end AR on top of the tint and it changes the color, mirror on top of the tint changing the color, people wanting a yellow lens for night driving and I try and explain how that's a bad idea but they still want it, and in my experience with Hoya and Essilor labs it generally takes them longer than 2 weeks usually to make them).

Also about 85% of what I sell has a high end AR on it with a two year guarantee. This means I am not worried about the scratch resistance of the material because everyone's lenses no matter what material you use will most likely be scratched within 2 years.

What else you got?

[dima]

To date myself, when I started Optometrist's were telling clients not to buy CR-39 because they wouldn't see as well as with glass.

Abbe glass vs cr39 Is pretty close the only difference Is in the "color" of the material sometimes and % of light reflex and Weight and impact resistance not optics

[dima]

If I need a tinted lens I can use a lens material that is more apt for tinting. But if I never sold another tinted lens in my life I would go home and open up a bottle of champagne and celebrate. Tint jobs bring me a lot of headaches (it's too dark, it's not dark enough, it's not the exact color they was wanting, wanting a high end AR on top of the tint and it changes the color, mirror on top of the tint changing the color etc). And about 85% of what I sell has a high end AR on it with a two year guarantee. This means I am not worried about the scratch resistance of the material because everyone's lenses no matter what material you use will most likely be scratched within 2 years.

This Is the point, I'm not saying "we have to ban poly"

I am just criticizing many people's statement "wow poly Is so great, no difference with cr39 or mr."
The differences are there.

Then I understand that many customers will scratch anything, within two years most will scratch their lenses.

I also understand that not everyone can buy expensive lenses and for the market a lens that scratches faster has its advantage.

I am just saying that we can honestly talk about the pros and cons of each material and use the one we like best.

Poly Is low quality High index compared to others material but nobody Is dead for using poly

The only sad thing about this thread has been the attacks from those calling others incompetent

[drk]

How else are we going to have fun? I mean, we're talking about plastics.

We gotta bring a little of this into it!


Opticians are a rough bunch.

They have to be.

[NAICITPO]

This Is the point, I'm not saying "we have to ban poly"

I am just criticizing many people's statement "wow poly Is so great, no difference with cr39 or mr."
The differences are there.

Then I understand that many customers will scratch anything, within two years most will scratch their lenses.

I also understand that not everyone can buy expensive lenses and for the market a lens that scratches faster has its advantage.

I am just saying that we can honestly talk about the pros and cons of each material and use the one we like best.

Poly Is low quality High index compared to others material but nobody Is dead for using poly

The only sad thing about this thread has been the attacks from those calling others incompetent

My response to poly is a "low quality high index compared to other materials"

"If a tree falls in a forest but there is no one there to hear it—is there a noise. That is an interesting philosophical question that we will probably never have the answer for. On the other hand if there is chromatic aberration at a point on a lens where no one looks—is there a problem with optical clarity? Now that is a question that millions of polycarbonate and other high-index lens lens wearers have already answered, and the answer is: NO."

-Michael DiSanto

[CME4SPECS]

The best material out there is the one that you feel best about dispensing. I've never seen so many people get their panties all in a bunch about nothing!

[Uncle Fester]

Welcome to OptiBoard Michael where we discuss the proper sign for a plano (+0.00) lens!!!

https://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php/74580

Stick with us and use the search option whenever possible as the guru's here often disagree on how to reach Nirvana.

Eventually you too will reach enlightenment!

[Michael22]

Welcome to OptiBoard Michael where we discuss the proper sign for a plano (+0.00) lens!!!.....Eventually you too will reach enlightenment!

Haha thanks, yeah I feel like I just started a war on these forums lol. Also it seems like everyone here is much older? I'm only 26, and relatively new still (only 3 years opticianing.) I'm learning a lot from this board though!

[CME4SPECS]

[QUOTE=Michael22;573756]Haha thanks, yeah I feel like I just started a war on these forums lol. Also it seems like everyone here is much older? I'm only 26, and relatively new still (only 3 years opticianing.) I'm learning a lot from this board though![/QUO

OLD and crotchety!!

[NAICITPO]

Haha thanks, yeah I feel like I just started a war on these forums lol. Also it seems like everyone here is much older? I'm only 26, and relatively new still (only 3 years opticianing.) I'm learning a lot from this board though!

Heh you haven't started a war LOL, we've had this conversation a couple times since I have been here in the last 3 years. And if you go back and use the forum search function you can see several other conversations about this exact topic.

I try and spend 15 minutes every morning going through and finding a topic about optics I am not that well versed in and try and learn a little more about it. I often find myself on Optiboard looking back on conversations from the past where some of the much smarter people than me have conversations about optics--and try and glean as much information as I can.
And as far as most everyone being older... I mean this is a message board. I am still not a quadragenarian yet but I am not far enough off away that it doesn't scare me when I see the doc saying someone who is 43 needs a progressive .

Welcome!

[Loki]

Haha thanks, yeah I feel like I just started a war on these forums lol. Also it seems like everyone here is much older? I'm only 26, and relatively new still (only 3 years opticianing.) I'm learning a lot from this board though!

Don't worry, I've only been in the job 3 and a half years, I'm only 26 too (well, 27 in December), and I'm a year and a half into the UK ABDO Dispensing Optician course. I've learnt so much from this site, and i check it every day to learn new things. I get disappointed if no-one has posted, lol. I don't say much because I just like to see what other people are thinking about things.

There's been some interesting points made about the various lens materials. I think the overarching message is that everything has it's use and place.

[NAICITPO]

Don't worry, I've only been in the job 3 and a half years, I'm only 26 too (well, 27 in December), and I'm a year and a half into the UK ABDO Dispensing Optician course. I've learnt so much from this site, and i check it every day to learn new things. I get disappointed if no-one has posted, lol. I don't say much because I just like to see what other people are thinking about things.

There's been some interesting points made about the various lens materials. I think the overarching message is that everything has it's use and place.

I feel like you aren't paying attention to the conversation. Obviously polycarbonate is the worst material you can EVER put your customer/patient in. The low abbe value makes the optical quality the same or almost the same as drunk goggles.

In fact I am so precise with the optics that I dispense that I put everyone in CR39 or glass because it has the highest abbe value. Trivex's abbe value is complete dog $*** in comparison. I also force my doctor to write his Rxs to the 8th of a diopter for the most precision possible. It doesn't matter that 99.99% of people cannot tell the difference, for those 0.01% of people that can, they are getting the absolute pristine of the pristine!

IF you do not follow suit I look down on you because you obviously don't understand optics like I do.