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Thread: I've never seen such a bunch of hooey...

  1. #1
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I've never seen such a bunch of hooey...

    ...gain such popular demand as blue blocking lenses.

    People have fallen, hook-line-and-sinker for this thing. It plays to everyone's "WEll, I'M oN a CompUTeR A LOt" fantasy, and their "ooH, ComUTERs bAd!" mythology.

    How do you handle it?

  2. #2
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    There is no scientific evidence that the light coming from computer screens is damaging to the eyes. Because of this, the Academy does not recommend any special eye wear for computer use.​
    https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-...asses-worth-it

    I recommend wearing optimally fitted and designed eyeglasses derived from an up-to-date Rx, as needed.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Last edited by Robert Martellaro; 10-11-2021 at 12:54 PM.
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    ...gain such popular demand as blue blocking lenses.

    People have fallen, hook-line-and-sinker for this thing. It plays to everyone's "WEll, I'M oN a CompUTeR A LOt" fantasy, and their "ooH, ComUTERs bAd!" mythology.

    How do you handle it?
    I could not agree more. I routinely talk people OUT of 'Blue Light' BS.... I explain that I think it's simply a bunch of marketing to increase revenue generation. I still sell a few varieties of 'blue light protection' once in a while for those who've drank the kool-aid and insist. However most thank me profusely for my honesty and saving them a few bucks.

  4. #4
    OptiWizard
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    We point out that no one in the office and none of the kids of employees wears them. If we thought it had any merit all of us and our kids would be wearing blue blocking glasses.

  5. #5
    Rising Star
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    Yep a bunch of BS marketing...I tell them I DO NOT WEAR them...

    QUOTE=Sledzinator;565421]We point out that no one in the office and none of the kids of employees wears them. If we thought it had any merit all of us and our kids would be wearing blue blocking glasses.[/QUOTE]

  6. #6
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    I tell them it was a classic guerilla marketing social media driven marketing ploy that worked.

    The adamant I ask to google "Does blue light harm my eyes" and try to find an ophthalmologist reviewed paper that it does.

    As a fashion statement I have no problem with them but if they are still concerned they should change the screens background to another color.

    Most chuckle and more than a few will say I thought so but I work with mostly adults smarter than me.

    Ok- not a high bar to clear but you get the idea.

  7. #7
    OptiBoard Professional KrystleClear's Avatar
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    I mentioned this in the Opticians on FB group and a lot of people got downright angry but couldn't direct me to any studies or papers that definitively concluded that blue light caused harm to the eyes and that blue blocking lenses could prevent that. People don't understand that just because one study (paid for by a party that profits from the thing being tested/studied) finds that something might be true, that doesn't mean it is, especially if the study is only done on say, 10 people. There needs to be more consensus amongst the experts and right now their isn't. An opticians goal should be to provide patients/customers (or whatever you prefer to call them) with a well fitting pair of glasses with lenses that will provide them with the best vision for their needs. That doesn't mean that every person you deal with needs to leave with all the bells and whistles on their glasses. Obviously we are salespeople and I understand needing to make a profit, and I understand why others have been told that all the bells and whistles are actually what's best for the patient. You have to consider patient trust and loyalty in the long run, too. If you promise something that can't be delivered, you might lose people. Also, as professionals working in the health care spectrum, we shouldn't make claims that aren't scientifically proven. I guess that might be what upset people - but I stand by it. I don't expect opticians to be reading every academic paper or study that has anything to do with optics or eyecare, but, we should just be careful about what we say and what we promise those trusting us to help them see.

    I explain to my patients that if they want it, I will sell it to them, but I won't make any sweeping promises. I explain that some people have said they FEEL like the coating helps with migraines, but again, that is just anecdotal, at least at this point. I make sure to explain to patients that we tend to blink less when we look at screens - and that can make our eyes feel dry and tired. A blue blocker will not make you blink more. It won't make reading the text on screens easier either, on it's own, as that's really up to the near/intermediate correction in the lens. As far as the blue light disrupting your sleeping patterns - most devices now have a nighttime mode where the screen brightness and color can be adjusted, so that the disruption to a circadian rhythm is possibly reduced. The best thing is to just stop using your phone in bed when you're supposed to be falling asleep. When people insist on it, I offer them Crizal Prevencia so they will at least get the benefit of a decent AR. (We weren't super impressed with our lab's in house blue blocker - our optom tried it personally to see if he could notice any benefit.) Most people are grateful that I'm honest and upfront with them. If the patient tries it and feels it does help them, then great.
    Krystle

  8. #8
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    Harvard study states some interesting facts. “Blue light has a dark side” a synopsis is available on line.

  9. #9
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    "The science into the harms from blue light is mostly done with retinal cells in a petri dish, he said, "or taking a poor mouse and and shining a blue light ray intensely into their eyeball for hours on end.""

    KABOOM!


    Here's one of many debunking investigative stories:

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/marke...tion-1.5364678

    Also- Sharpstick had a great post about the petri dish problem but I'm getting busy and will look for the thread when I get a chance.

    Note post #48. This is a years ago thread where we beat the need to block blue light pseudo science to death when it first came out:

    https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...ish+blue+light
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 10-13-2021 at 01:41 PM.

  10. #10
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I'm just fascinated on how this product has so much traction, but you have to sell AR by way of a new introduction to most people, like AR just came from Mars or something.

  11. #11
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Two things will ALWAYS baffle me about patients - doubly so after they've been given full and proper information: Those who still purchase "blue blocking" snake oil, and those who still refuse any AR lens outright. The pretzel-like logic required to justify either option is silliness in the extreme. A fool and their money...as the saying goes. Either parting with it for nothing (for the Sweeney Todd fans in the back, think Pirellis "Miracle Elixir" that was nothing but pi....urine.) or those who refuse even basic AR lenses despite the dramatic improvement it has on the visual experience of wearing spec lenses overall. *shrug*

    Humans aren't always the sharpest crayon in the box.

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    I'm not going to go out of my way to persuade or dissuade one way or the other on blue light. If they think it helps it probably does have some sort of a placebo effect. I will let people know there is no definitive studies that say one way or the other about blue light coatings, I neither affirm nor deny blue light protection. If they still want blue light protection I put them in Prevencia/Recharge EX3/Techshield Elite Blue AR coatings. I always show a blank of the blue light AR coating, show them that it appears a little yellow and has a purple reflection. Our office is around 80% AR, it works for us

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I'm just fascinated on how this product has so much traction, but you have to sell AR by way of a new introduction to most people, like AR just came from Mars or something.
    Maybe ask Optiboard meember Brent McCardle, he seems to be selling the blue flavored koolaid. https://www.2020mag.com/ce/blue-light-lenses-with-more

    When the industry is granting CEs for a marketing piece disguised science, we are in a pretty bad place.

  14. #14
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    That sort of behavior by certain elements of our industry is precisely what got us where we are. Its been a constant move away from solid science, medicine, and quality, towards strictly superficial fashion, weak marketing, and a global race to the bottom since at least the 70s. We've made some advances as well to be sure, but as we've all seen in the last 5+ years, misinformation travels faster than light on the interwebs these days, and there are far too many consumers ready to mindlessly lap it up with gusto.

  15. #15
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    For the record I like Brent.


    Here's what I do, when they ask:
    "There's no damage that comes from your computer screen. You get more blue light exposure on a nice walk. And I have no idea about that circadian rhythm thing."
    "I have blue light protection on my glasses and I like it. It's comfortable, like a light tint. We recommend anti-reflection lenses, anyway, and if it reflects more blue away, it can make some people feel more comfortable, and it costs only a little more than regular AR."

    Most people don't get it at that point, but I feel I'm being "fair". In truth, a 10% tan tint with a standard AR does the same thing. And costs about the same.

  16. #16
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    The "damage from the computer screen" is the worst part of the lie that needs to be once and for all killed dead. And that is what 99% of the inquiries come from. As for the AR style lenses [Prevencia, Recharge, et al] they do more than a tint, in that they all ADD large amounts of reflection in the blue/purple band. The very antithesis of what an AR lens is designed to do. So why bother? Not being arrogant here - genuinely why? If you want a tint, get a tint. Your AR stack quality will suffer greatly of course, but that's just the way of things with porous, tintable lens stock. Of course, a light tint negates the increased transmittance of AR anyway, so we're back to square one again regardless. Feel free to slap that devil's advocate label firmly on my forehead Doc. :)

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    OptiBoard Professional KrystleClear's Avatar
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    Just saw the CE course in 20/20 mag on Zeiss's Blue Guard. Notice how they always say "potentially harmful."

    I wonder why UV protection isn't as valued as blue light protection? I see people driving around squinting because of bright sunlight all the time. I do not understand why so many people go without sunglasses. I have NEVER been asked during a sale if UV protection can be added to their lenses. I get asked about blue light protection fairly often by my younger customers.
    Krystle

  18. #18
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    The power of truly awful marketing devoid of any actual science whatsoever.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Don't touch my hair!!!

    Does light outside the visible spectrum make us squint?

    I'm trying to remember in my youth when I was Stay'in Alive on the disco floor in my canary yellow leisure suit and gold chin w/ a tiny spoon if it did.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    For the record I like Brent.


    Here's what I do, when they ask:
    "There's no damage that comes from your computer screen. You get more blue light exposure on a nice walk. And I have no idea about that circadian rhythm thing."
    "I have blue light protection on my glasses and I like it. It's comfortable, like a light tint. We recommend anti-reflection lenses, anyway, and if it reflects more blue away, it can make some people feel more comfortable, and it costs only a little more than regular AR."

    Most people don't get it at that point, but I feel I'm being "fair". In truth, a 10% tan tint with a standard AR does the same thing. And costs about the same.


    Brent is one of the brightest young men in this industry. You should like him and continue to review the material on blue light. I agree with most here, but I also believe in Brent. He would not present information he does not believe to be true and accurate and we may be grasping at straws here on the term "damage"? Can the retina be negatively impacted by blue light? Studies are inconclusive but do point to needing further investigation, and I like most feel the computer screen is not a big issue, but I have talked with some excellent folks from the field who claim they get some relief with these lenses on the computer! Curt Duff.....if you still read this, chime in. Can other ocular tissue be affected? More research is needed, and from independent sources. Opticianry schools provide no real contribution to the literature, but Optometry's research output in many areas is improving every year! Lets see more data.

    I am retired now, and do not get to see many of my lifelong colleagues here any longer at meetings. My health just won't allow me to travel like I did when a young man! But this board keeps me thinking, and no matter what your feelings about blue light...…whether you see it as marketing hogwash or the real deal, I am enjoying the conversation! Just let me encourage you to be as objective as possible to new things. I just had to state my strong support for a former student who I know personally to be a man of integrity. Thanks Brent for all you have accomplished. I know you have much more to go and I hope to be here to see it!

    Best regards to all!
    Warren

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    This is DanLiv's post from 6 years ago, I think it makes the most sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post
    We are in a clinically nebulous era about blue light where there is good evidence there is some reason for concern, but no good evidence about how much we should be concerned. Despite the heavy handed marketing every manufacturer is embracing I'm taking a conservative stepped approach to blue light control.

    In my opinion the primary targets for UV protection are heavy digital device users (I mean heavy as in 8+ hour per day professionals, not check-your-snapchat-every-two-minutes teens) and children.

    I believe anyone or any age who uses digital devices for prolonged periods of time can benefit from "digital eyewear", essentially mild plus rxs (I use finished +0.25 to +0.75 for emmetropes and for Rxs typically Anti-Fatigue/Relax at +0.50 over DV). I was fitting such eyewear before the blue light frenzy, so now all I do is include the blue light protection gratis (slightly more expensive to me, but not much), offer an explanation of the potential harmful effects of blue light, and inform my customers that my they are protected at no charge. Worst case scenario in 10 years this all turns out to be bunk, but it cost them nothing anyway. More likely scenario in 10 years at least some of the evidence is thoroughly substantiated, and my customers have already been protected all that time.

    Children are becoming de facto heavy digital device users, especially at school. Plus their eyes have not accumulated the natural blue light filtering pigment. They are significantly exposed and have increased susceptibility. I offer it to parents at no additional charge. Most opt for it, a few don't just because of the reflectance.

    Judging the exact harm blue light causes in various scenarios is necessary for doing a cost-benefit analysis for your customers. I won't ignore the potential harm of blue light, but I'm not 100% certain of how much of a concern it should be. Since I don't have the info to accurately calculate the benefit, and cost to my customer is just guesswork on my part, the cost-benefit to the customer is simply based on their trust in me. I won't risk that trust so I give it to them gratis. When the cost is zero, the value is infinite.
    I think this is my approach too @DanLiv. We sell Prevencia/Recharge EX3/techshield blue for the same price as we sell other D level AR coatings Sapphire etc, so if people want blue light protection we aren't charging them more for it. I just had someone today who wanted to try it out and then decided after trying it that he liked Sapphire better, he felt like there was too much reflections on prevencia.

  22. #22
    OptiBoard Professional KrystleClear's Avatar
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    DanLiv makes good points. I hadn't thought of it that way, and maybe this is something that a lot of other opticals do - since I have had a few patients tell me they thought all lenses came included with blue blocker as an industry standard. I might consider doing the same if our lab cost for adding a blue blocker wasn't so salty.
    Krystle

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    Like with most things, there is a question of degree. If I jump into the air, the earth pushes down as I go up, and when I land the earth comes up to meet me in proportion to our respective masses. Is HEV harmful? Sure, because all EM is harmful in some way to some degree. Sunshine which produces vitamin D also gives you melanoma. Kale can be toxic if you eat enough, so dying of cancer isn't the issue any more. Frat boys die when they drink too much water. The blue end of the spectrum is more easily scattered, so some kind of attenuation can be an aid to comfort, if not quite the health issue of the ages. Is the question of blue filtration/attenuation one-sided? Of course not, in the optical world most questions have more than 1 answer, usually more than 2. I don't know if there is a strong cumulative effect from exposure to 450-500 nm radiation, but I'm betting that none of us will live long enough to experience it.

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    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    For the record I like Brent.
    Deservedly so….

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Brent is one of the brightest young men in this industry. You should like him and continue to review the material on blue light. I agree with most here, but I also believe in Brent. He would not present information he does not believe to be true and accurate and we may be grasping at straws here on the term….
    Agree whole heartedly! You can shoot the message (in this case) but don’t shoot the messenger. Brent is extremely a man of integrity. I have every confidence his presentation was exactly as hi​s​ research showed.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by finefocus View Post
    I don't know if there is a strong cumulative effect from exposure to 450-500 nm radiation, but I'm betting that none of us will live long enough to experience it.
    But humans have always been exposed to "bad blue light" (I think you meant 400-450) from being outside. Vision Ease states that 15 minutes spent outside in full sun is equivilent to 10 HOURS of expose from an iPhone at 12". The additional blue light received from electronic devices is a drop in the ocean compared to what one receives from being outside. Couple that with the fact that these lenses are only blocking 10-20% of the "bad blue light" and we are really getting down to a very inconsequential amount of added exposure from electronic devices.

    I think most people have given up or at least quieted down on the Health and Safety front of blue light from electronic devises front, other than the plano online sellers that just make up whatever they want. All the big boys are too smart to make actual unsubstantiated medical claims for fear of fines or lawsuits.

    It has been years since the blue light craze started. I would think by now they could produce some peer reviewed clear evidence supporting the use of these lenses. Instead they (the big lens makers) have just blasted out marketing and forced others to disprove their marketing. What an unscientific sham. If the claim is that these lenses do something, state the specific claims and show the evidence. Until then it's nonsense. If they cared about ocular health and blue light they would be spending their blue light marketing dollars on getting people to wear sunglasses outside. The first few years of blue light lenses were only marketed at current glasses wearers. As if emmetropes were somehow immune to the dangers of the bad blue light. That should tell you all you need to know right there.

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