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Thread: Definity discontinued....

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter ak47's Avatar
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    Definity discontinued....

    It seems Definity is being discontinued.....which is a bit of an issue since long-time Definity wearers almost never like any other lens. I am thinking Hoya Lifestyle might be the closest thing available, of course they are significantly more expensive, especially for a vsp order. Any thoughts or suggestions?

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    I knew it was slowly being phased out in the more esoteric materials, but was under the impression that, like say Image, Comfort, and Natural, it would likely be available in at least CR and poly for a long time yet to come. To the best of my knowledge, with all the fancy lens wrangling of the last 15 years or so, literally no one has come up with a viable replacement for that design. And for the people it works for, it's really a great optic. I hope it still has some life left in it, or a decent "modern" analogy is one day released to take it's place.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Are we sure we're talking about the design?

    I got a feeling the Definity 3 will always be with us.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-07-2023 at 09:32 AM.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    I’ve had success switching them to IOT Camber Steady.

    B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Are we sure we're talking about the design?

    I got a feeling the Definity 3 will always be with us.
    It still is with us...although I have heard it was to be discontinued YEARS ago.

    Over a year ago, I was talking to my Essilor rep about the new Comfort Max progressive that was to be released. We had some scheduling conflicts, plus Covid affecting everything, so I was not able to get him in office to do official staff training. So I asked him to give me the fast and loose training so I can offer to my patients sooner and train the other staff.
    He described the "new" Comfort Max 2 as a PAL with upgraded corridor with a "boost" of power in the intermediate. To me this sounded very familiar, so I asked him point blank "isn't that the Definity Dual Add"? And he acknowledged the similarity without outright saying it was the Definity Dual Add.

    So, maybe there is a difference between the two, but to me it sounds like one of the Definity line PALs has just been rebranded.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Welcome to Optiboard DurhamEye!

    Sharpstick777 hasn't been heard from lately but was always a must read.

    Great thread from our Hall of Fame Forum:

    "Barry,
    I have defined a few basic Free-form design types based on corridor emphasis and distance width based on FF mapping we did. These are only possible in Free-form.

    T Design = Distance clarity edge to edge (primary zone gain), narrower intermediate, narrow to moderate reading... Auto II (most Shamir), Seiko Succeed/Supercede, et al.

    Free-form Hour-glass = A little gain in most zones, but not edge to edge clear in any one. Wide Distance (but not edge to edge), moderate int and wider reading. Its a balanced design, general purpose lens, with no single emphasis. and Comfort DRx and Physio DRx, Steath Pro SD/MD

    Plus Shape = Reading and Intermediate are very wide, but distance is not. Distortion is essentially moved to the four corners, which balances spacial distortions, and effectively widens the entire effective corridor, which is more cylindrical. (Definity, Hoya iD Lifestyle)

    Barrel Shape = Wide Intermediate, slightly narrower distance and reading. Basically instead of putting the narrow end of the progressive cone at the pupil, it turns it around and puts the wide end at top instead. Distortion is moved to both the top and bottom edges, but gives about 4X the distance width as most Plus lenses. Basically, its two corridors, stacked with their wide ends together. The Seiko Surmount is the only one in this catagory at this time.

    V Shape= Edge to edge distance, wider intermediate, but very narrow reading. Ziess GT2-3D is the only lens in this catagory.

    Fountain Shape = The newest design, its like a T shape but instead of the narrow part of the corridor at the top, the narrower point is lower in the middle between the intermediate are reading zones. The intermediate ends up being a little wider, with a little lower declination. Reading is a little lower. Distance is edge to edge, and because of the distortion being pushed down, and away from the central view, the feeling is terrific. It turns into two intermediate zones though, one high, and one lower. Two lenses in this category, The new Shamir InTouch and the new Seiko Supernal. Because they start the intermediate lower, its good for laptops, but the reading is little lower too. Fit on Center. I have to dig a little deeper in both lenses to get the fine print. Reading width is OK though.


    [=Barry Santini;452873]IMHO, progressive design is not what has become too complicated, but rather the issues surroundimg defining progressive corridor between designs/companies in a more standardized way.

    Think boxing system for progressives."



    https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...ountain+design

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    OptiBoardaholic IIxIPariahIxII's Avatar
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    The Hoya Lifestyle 3 should be a good substitute. I literally JUST put a patient back in Definity because he couldn't adapt to a Varilux. So next year may go ahead and try and get him acclimated to Hoya, just in case.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    The more expensive Definity 3 will be the only Definity option soon.

    Some standard Definity lenses are still available but my Essilor lab says not to count on them in the near future as well.

    My tendency will be to switch them to the 3 and if they want a cheaper lens manage their expectations so a variation of Ryser's Rule will apply.

    Ryser's Rule- "The success of a progressive is directly proportional to the motivation of the patient to wear a progressive."
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 08-18-2021 at 08:58 AM. Reason: tweek...

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    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Ryser's Rule- "The success of a progressive is directly proportional to the motivation of the patient to wear a progressive."
    I reference Ryser's Rule by name to patients at least twice a week. Chris lives on.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Are we sure we're talking about the design?

    I got a feeling the Definity 3 will always be with us.
    This didn't age well. Haha

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvis Is Alive View Post
    This didn't age well. Haha
    I think the industry is moving toward only spherical front surfaces which makes the Definty just another standard design.

    Their big innovation when they were released, as we've discussed here, was the +0.75 add molded on the front so when the back was freeform surfaced the corridor was wider in a Comfort soft design.

    I think Johnson & Johnson patented the design and Eissilor liked it so they made them an offer they couldn't refuse and bought it.

    Am I remembering correctly?
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-05-2023 at 04:58 PM. Reason: delete "hard (T shape)" after Mr Martellaro's post...still learning!!!

  12. #12
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    essilor says....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I think the industry is moving toward only spherical front surfaces which makes the Definty just another standard design.

    Their big innovation when they were released, as we've discussed here, was the +0.75 add molded on the front so when the back was freeform surfaced the corridor was wider in a hard (T shape) design.

    I think Johnson & Johnson patented the design and Eissilor liked it so they made them an offer they couldn't refuse and bought it.

    Am I remembering correctly?
    Definity was a Kodak design. Kodak was bought by Essilor. Kodak had the 2nd largest market share photochromic in Instashades. They went away pretty quickly after the purchase.

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    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    TMK, J&J patented dual surface PAL’s and the process of fabrication. They were the ones that marketed “Definity”.

    J&J’s patent;
    https://patents.justia.com/patent/6123422

  15. #15
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    TMK, J&J patented dual surface PAL’s and the process of fabrication. They were the ones that marketed “Definity”.

    J&J’s patent;
    https://patents.justia.com/patent/6123422
    A JJ sales rep who lived a couple blocks from me supplied a trial pair in my Rx for evaluation. The performance claim if I remember correctly was reduced unwanted astigmatism along the corridor, resulting in more comfortable wear. I think the claim was 10% less astigmatism, and most measurements I believe showed a ratio of about 1.50:2.00 of astigmatism to add power, where most PALs at best were about 2:2. It's was unclear to me if that level of unwanted astigmatism was due to "steering" of the astigmatism to the periphery of the lens, its unique lens surface design, or a combination of both.

    My wearing evaluation, again from memory, showed a PAL that had a very linear rate of change in the corridor that was long, a low level of blur around the corridor, and moderate blur in the distance periphery that was similar to other soft or very soft designs available at the time.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I think the industry is moving toward only spherical front surfaces which makes the Definty just another standard design.
    Is it? I think the progressive world is staunchly divided between spherical front and molded progressive front surfaces. Shamir and Zeiss are all into 100% backside (except Zeiss' top progressive in 1.74 which is supposedly only fabricated in the German labs; that is a dual-surfaced design. Hmm, why would they use dual surface design on their most expensive and precision product??), Essilor and HOYA prefer dual sided design (at least in their premium lenses).

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Their big innovation when they were released, as we've discussed here, was the +0.75 add molded on the front so when the back was freeform surfaced the corridor was wider in a hard (T shape) design. I think Johnson & Johnson patented the design and Eissilor liked it so they made them an offer they couldn't refuse and bought it.
    Essilor might have gotten the idea from Definity, I don't remember that, but if so they REALLY liked it because they have doubled-down on dual sided ever since.

    I would guess it's being discontinued just because it's now a very dated design. They could re-engineer it and keep updating it with more modern design, but I bet Essilor would say that by now they have incorporated everything good about Definity into their flagship lens designs, so there's no value in keeping it as a standalone product. Plus with the molded front surface it means they have to keep producing Definity blanks for it, they can't just throw it willy-nilly on a spherical blank. They are streamlining the portfolio (why they're retiring the traditional Physio too).

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    An early 2002 news release from J&J:

    https://tinyurl.com/mr39sywt

    Darryl Meister chimes in with his thoughts. Who knew how great the Sola XL was (besides Steve Machol;)

    Post #4
    My spiel on SOLA XL, "The Lens You Never Knew Just How Much You Loved":

    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12500

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-07-2023 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Fixed it NAICITPO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    An early 2023 news release from J&J:l
    Early 2023?

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post



    Essilor might have gotten the idea from Definity, I don't remember that, but if so they REALLY liked it because they have doubled-down on dual sided ever since.

    Plus with the molded front surface it means they have to keep producing Definity blanks for it, they can't just throw it willy-nilly on a spherical blank.
    Please help:

    1. I thought all the newer Essilor/Varilux designs were all back surface designs. Am I wrong about that? Not talking about the digitally surfaced back/molded front lenses like I believe the Physio W3+ is. I mean the XR.

    2. Wouldn't it be more like Essilor to put some progression on the front so labs HAVE TO buy Essilor blanks? Or do they already have to?

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    Personal opinion only, but I'm inclined to believe the main reason Essilor is moving to molded front/dual sided is to make it hard for independent labs to offer their products. Spherical front makes the most logical sense for the industry: carry the SV blanks in various materials and pay the click fee for the design, Easy Peasy.

    Otherwise, you have to devote a massive amount of space and money to each design like the old days.

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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I thought all the newer Essilor/Varilux designs were all back surface designs. Wouldn't it be more like Essilor to put some progression on the front so labs HAVE TO buy Essilor blanks? Or do they already have to?
    Only the DRx are spherical front, backside design. All other Varilux, Comfort W2, Max, Physio W3, S, X, XR, even Liberty 3.0, are digitally molded dual add designs. And yes, all those designs must go on Essilor proprietary molded blanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvis Is Alive View Post
    Personal opinion only, but I'm inclined to believe the main reason Essilor is moving to molded front/dual sided is to make it hard for independent labs to offer their products. Spherical front makes the most logical sense for the industry: carry the SV blanks in various materials and pay the click fee for the design, Easy Peasy. Otherwise, you have to devote a massive amount of space and money to each design like the old days.
    Essilor has always been into molded blanks. When digital became widespread everyone else jumped on to the spherical front full backside bandwagon, specifically because it's cheaper and easier with the multi-use spherical blanks. Essilor did not, and released all it's digital designs as dual sided (Physio Enhanced, or Ipseo, I believe was their first digital??). Only once the full backside party was in full swing did they release the DRx, but as the lower-cost entry-level Varilux digital lenses, not their flagship products.

    Spherical front makes the most logical sense for the industry if the goal is simplification, lowered cost, and flexibility. But Essilor hardcore believes that full backside is inferior to dual sided design. They spend more on R&D than all their competitors combined. I don't believe they would bother spending that if instead they could just dominate the market with marketing hype and manipulating labs with artificial inventory restrictions. I think they produce what they believe to be the best possible progressive technology, and if it requires massive manufacturing and inventory investments, and leaves small-time upstart digital labs out of the loop, so be it.

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    I freely admit my active dislike for Essilux colors my perspective but I do believe their molded design philosophy serves a dual-purpose, but I'm old and jaded. #getoffmylawn

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    OptiWizard
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    eEssilor did not go with the spherical front route because Zeiss and Seiko had a patent on the process and they would have had to pay Royalties to do so.


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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    eEssilor did not go with the spherical front route because Zeiss and Seiko had a patent on the process and they would have had to pay Royalties to do so.

    Now this I can grok!!!

    From Dan's post above:

    "Essilor might have gotten the idea from Definity, I don't remember that, but if so they REALLY liked it because they have doubled-down on dual sided ever since."


    Any optical historian know where Rodenstocks 2C Optics molded lens fits in this picture of dual sided molded progressives?


    I remember it as a better than good design but the one size blank doomed it as frames went small and freeform/digital took over.

    This is the kind of thread that makes me miss Chris Ryser...
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-07-2023 at 09:37 AM. Reason: another thought...

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    DanLiv, you always deliver the mail.

    How you squeeze information out of essilor's propaganda department should get you a Pulitzer in investigative optical journalism.

    We did have a recent thread discussing how, on moderate and higher hyperopic presbyopic prescriptions, that the back surface near zone can get too flat (less than -6.00, IIRC) for optimal optics, if there is a spherical front/back surface digitally surfaced design, and that the only answer was more cowbell putting some of the progression on the front. But the suboptimal workaround is to steepen the front of the lens (lens bulge). https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...t=back+surface

    So I guess it works to our advantage that we have some "dual add" designs, even if Definity sleeps with the dinosaurs.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa9Zg6yGlQ4
    Last edited by drk; 12-07-2023 at 09:36 AM.

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