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Thread: Crizal Rock

  1. #26
    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIxIPariahIxII View Post
    As a follow up, they are NOT yet available through ABB
    A couple years ago ABB streamlined their Crizal offerings and dropped all Easy and Avance product, continuing only Alize, Sapphire, and Prevencia. Worked for me, I by lens banks of Easy and Avance, and my rep just locked me in to Alize and Sapphire at the same price. It will be interesting to see if they think Rock is desirable enough to offer.

  2. #27
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    Any updates on findings? Also, would Diamond Finish be the Oceania equivalent of EX3 for Hoya?

  3. #28
    OptiBoard Professional IIxIPariahIxII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemechs View Post
    Any updates on findings? Also, would Diamond Finish be the Oceania equivalent of EX3 for Hoya?
    So I gotta say, via more unconventional methods, the scratch resistance is pretty spectacular. I used and abused this thing and there's not so much as a mark on it. Not even minor. I think the biggest test is real world wear and tear in harsher environments. As for your Oceania question, I don't know the answer to that one.

  4. #29
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Can you tell us more about what you did in your test, Pariah?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIxIPariahIxII View Post
    So I gotta say, via more unconventional methods, the scratch resistance is pretty spectacular. I used and abused this thing and there's not so much as a mark on it. Not even minor. I think the biggest test is real world wear and tear in harsher environments. As for your Oceania question, I don't know the answer to that one.
    What I'd like to see us do is order one of our lenses Rock the other Avance.

    There's the real world, objective test imo.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 04-23-2021 at 03:59 PM.

  6. #31
    Rising Star Lawman Nick's Avatar
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    Anybody know the retail price?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawman Nick View Post
    Anybody know the retail price?
    $2 more than Avance

  8. #33
    Master Jedi King of the Lab's Avatar
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    Rock will be replacing Crizal Avance.
    Erik Zuniga, ABOC.

  9. #34
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    Here is a link to a free ABO class done by Pete Hanlin on Crizal Rock. We don't use a ton of Essilor products, but some might find it useful. I'm sure if Pete is teaching the class it will be very informative.

  10. #35
    OptiBoard Professional IIxIPariahIxII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Can you tell us more about what you did in your test, Pariah?
    Of course! Sorry for the delayed response. Been running around the office with my IT hat for the last few weeks.

    So after removing the protective coat for processing, I spent the week cleaning the lens with shirt materials. Every day, throughout the day repeatedly, to start. Nothing. We've got that harder short fiber carpeting in the office so next thing I did was simulate dropping glasses and causing scuffing. Took the lens and rubbed it against the carpet. Nothing. Next, did the same on the tile floor in between cleaning crew in the lab. Dropped it, skipped it, kicked it face down. I seriously tried abusing this thing. Nothing. So then I wanted to test "dirty" cloth. Dirtied up a cloth between poly debris and cleaning up the floor with it. Spent the week cleaning it off and on with the dirty cloth. Nothing. (Did not use spray, dry wipe only.) Now this was a Poly Rock lens. So the last thing I did that normally will instantly scratch up a lens was I took it face down, and drug it across the counter top. With pressure. Nothing. The only other thing I could do is rub it around in sand or put sand in a cloth and watch it get destroyed but I figured at that point, this thing deserved its reprieve lol. Like I said, unconventional. But there's not a mark on it.

    Also, there is a Blue Capture version. I'm with Fester, I wanna see side by side how Avance and Rock stand up on normal wear and tear. So far, I think this is a great option for construction workers, surveyors, etc.

  11. #36
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    Four and a half months since posting this thread, I'm ordering the first set for a patient today. His last pair is messed as heck, so I'm hoping he'll be over the moon with these ones

  12. #37
    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Did anyone else join in on the webinar? Aside from some technical difficulties, I found it very informative.

    Sorry if I butcher any of this- I took notes but probably not as detailed as you guys could use (educating my peers means getting to the point)

    Some key points:
    -has metallic top coat which results in no static electricity from cleaning (therefore dust repellent) and adds to scratch resistance
    -tier 2 in sand test (equal to one competitor which uses substrate match [Hoya EX3 if I'm guessing correctly])
    ---Avance tier 3 and Easy tier 4 (worst)
    -even though equivalent to competitor scratch resistancy, better durability over time (ink and cloth test set for 2 years of wear)
    -less likely to craze due to heat, though not heat proof

    Bottom line is that with the combo of metallic particles, fluoride, and more layers that are packed more densely, Rock offers a better longterm scratch and smudge resistance. They do state that Sapphire is still the best option for maximum clarity and Prevencia is still the best for overall protection (as shown in the graphs)
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  13. #38
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Great review!

  14. #39
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    This seems to be the best image I have seen so far that explains what is going on:



    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Crizal Rock layers.jpg 
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  15. #40
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    This appears to be another marketing driven product. There is nothing definitive about to warrant a higher cost. Six layers is the standard for high quality coating. Comparing to substrate match is of no value as that is done to reduce interference between between the layers has no bearing on scratch resistance. All claims seem vague and noncommittal. My experience has been the consumer is interested in a few features of AR. It doesn’t peel, scratch resistant ,easy to clean and rarely will craze. These are the items that keep them happy. Let’s not forget the warranty we already have if any the fail to meet the daily abuse they receive from the customers.

  16. #41
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    This appears to be another marketing driven product. There is nothing definitive about to warrant a higher cost. Six layers is the standard for high quality coating. Comparing to substrate match is of no value as that is done to reduce interference between between the layers has no bearing on scratch resistance. All claims seem vague and noncommittal. My experience has been the consumer is interested in a few features of AR. It doesn’t peel, scratch resistant ,easy to clean and rarely will craze. These are the items that keep them happy. Let’s not forget the warranty we already have if any the fail to meet the daily abuse they receive from the customers.
    +1
    A premium hydro/oleo coating is a must. The rest is pure marketing mumbo jumbo. Anti-static/anti-particulate/anti-fog/whatever layer wears off within a few months due to aggressive cleaning, but a solid hydro will last for at least a year, if not longer. Heck, I have a Quantum Natural that still repels water after 3 years, including the dreaded Staedtler permanent ink test. Still wipes clean with a simple cloth after three years, no ink remover needed, and no "hydro refresher".
    However, I will disagree with one point here. It is true that substrate matching has no bearance on scratch resistance, but it does minimize Newtonian rings and the dreaded "tiger stripe" anomalies. What matters most for crazing is the primer layer. Both hi and low index layers are still SiO2, and expansion/contraction will craze the coatings w/o due care, so dispensers beware. Never heat a frame with the lenses still glazed. The primer layer will aid in preventing this, but is still not idiot proof.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  17. #42
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    (Disclaimer- Essilor Employee) I had a chance to give my Crizal Rock no-glare lenses a pretty good workout this week in the woods around Broken Bow, Oklahoma. I've been trudging around setting up salt licks and cameras and building new tree stands for next year's hunting season, and managed to bang the eyewear around quite a bit in the process. Coating still looks like new.

    The additional durability in Crizal Rock comes from the make-up of the stack. As most on this thread already know, an AR stack reduces glare through destructive interference. By alternating between higher and lower oxides with layers of varying thicknesses, reflections are created which destructively interfere with the original reflection. What I personally did not realize until reading the Crizal Rock product file is the lower index oxides are more durable than the higher index ones. One of the alterations to the Crizal Rock stack is an adjustment that increases the amount of lower index oxides. Also, the density of the oxide layers was increased. This makes the AR stack itself more durable (the hard coat used for Crizal is already quite durable). Regarding the anti-particulate property, that is achieved by using an oxide that conducts electricity within the stack (i.e., the property is contained within the stack itself, so it does not get wiped away over time). The reasons many lenses attract dust and particulates is the static charge that builds in the lens while cleaning (if the lens doesn't conduct electricity and the cloth doesn't, rubbing them together will cause static). Crizal Rock lenses stay static-free.

    Anyway, headed back to the city tomorrow with lenses that looked like they did before I tromped through the woods (knocked off my face one time while riding the ATV- thought that would mar them for sure, but they held up). I like the appearance of Crizal Sapphire 360 UV (which is quite durable as well) in most of my glasses, but the eyewear I use for my trips to the cabin will be getting Crizal Rock from now on.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  18. #43
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    My tinfoil hat theory is that ROCK is just rebrand of the old Armorlite Kodak Clean and CleAR formula Essilor has been keeping in a dusty closet. That stuff was indestructible. Every year a few patients come in who still have lenses from before Essilor bought out Signet Armorlite. The lenses are always in pristine condition. Not just pretty good. Flawless, after 10-12 years of wear. It's crazy.

  19. #44
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    What I don't understand is how it is any more resistant when the improved oxide layers are below the anti-particulate layer, and the superhydrophobic top coat. If you pierce those two layers, aren't you going to see a noticeable mark on the lenses?

    Unless they are trying to say that there is some kind of interlayer reinforcement of those upper layers? Are the layers really as discrete as they seem in the diagram, or is there interlayer molecular linking (either physically or through atomic/molecular force interaction)? That would easily allow force/energy transmission throughout the stack and dispersion/mitigation. If the layers do interact with one another, in some manner, then I can see how they do reinforce one another.

    Also, are the layers as rigid as one might think, or is there some "bounce" or flex to them? If one could increase the elastic interaction between a contacting object and the stack, it would be possible to turn a potentially piercing/slicing impact into a glancing blow by dissipating the energy of the impact through the kinetic action of the stack countering the applied force.

    I've never really given the AR stack a ton of thought, but I can see how it is a fascinating area of research and practical application for people who are versed in material science and the application of thin films.

  20. #45
    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    What I don't understand is how it is any more resistant when the improved oxide layers are below the anti-particulate layer, and the superhydrophobic top coat. If you pierce those two layers, aren't you going to see a noticeable mark on the lenses?

    Unless they are trying to say that there is some kind of interlayer reinforcement of those upper layers? Are the layers really as discrete as they seem in the diagram, or is there interlayer molecular linking (either physically or through atomic/molecular force interaction)? That would easily allow force/energy transmission throughout the stack and dispersion/mitigation. If the layers do interact with one another, in some manner, then I can see how they do reinforce one another.

    Also, are the layers as rigid as one might think, or is there some "bounce" or flex to them? If one could increase the elastic interaction between a contacting object and the stack, it would be possible to turn a potentially piercing/slicing impact into a glancing blow by dissipating the energy of the impact through the kinetic action of the stack countering the applied force.

    I've never really given the AR stack a ton of thought, but I can see how it is a fascinating area of research and practical application for people who are versed in material science and the application of thin films.
    I'm very interested in this viewpoint as well. I'm in a similar boat of not being previously enthralled with the nitty-gritty of how everything works together but found myself super intrigued by the webinar the other night. I'm not from an Essilor heavy office but I do enjoy a well funded opportunity to learn (and free credit.)

    The way it was described, and Pete can probably expand on this, but the mention of metallic particles in the top layer apparently adds to the scratch resistance.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  21. #46
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    Don’t get caught up in the hype. The sand test that measures scratch resistance shows it is no better than what is currently on the market. Remember 1+3=4 2+2=4 4+0=4 all that counts is the end result not what the pieces are individually.

  22. #47
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I'm very interested in this viewpoint as well. I'm in a similar boat of not being previously enthralled with the nitty-gritty of how everything works together but found myself super intrigued by the webinar the other night. I'm not from an Essilor heavy office but I do enjoy a well funded opportunity to learn (and free credit.)

    The way it was described, and Pete can probably expand on this, but the mention of metallic particles in the top layer apparently adds to the scratch resistance.
    Caveat-I’m no expert
    SiO2 is basically glass. We all know glass is more scratch resistant than plastic and acrylic.
    Low index SiO2 is more scratch resistant than hi index SiO2. Pete verified that piece.
    Top coatings, aka hydro, reduces the drag of cleaning cloths, thus reducing the chances of scratching by cleaning. Better the hydro, the better the drag resistance, but hydro will wear off in time
    I understand what Pete is saying about the anti static layer, but color me a septic.
    Most of the damage w/AR revolves around peeling (degas/adhesion), crazing (substrate flex-expansion/contraction), and poor hydro (oil/water repellency).
    Much of these issues can be addressed through proper cleaning/degassing/etching, AND not skimping on the hydro.
    Latex primer layer and a lacquer based HC will address the crazing.

    Process engineers and other SMEs will correct me and/or expand on this subject.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  23. #48
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    ......
    I understand what Pete is saying about the anti static layer, but color me a septic. ....

    Well, that stinks...

  24. #49
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    Well, that stinks...

    love typos!
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  25. #50
    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    Don’t get caught up in the hype. The sand test that measures scratch resistance shows it is no better than what is currently on the market. Remember 1+3=4 2+2=4 4+0=4 all that counts is the end result not what the pieces are individually.
    Your math is accurate but unless there is a flat out lie imbedded in the presentation, Rock is the most scratch resistant Crizal product. As a previously Hoya heavy optical, I'm used to the EX3 and Recharge quality. If I am going to sell an Essilor coating, I want to know what it is comparable to. I use an 'independent' lab, meaning I can order any combo of lens and coating so I like having options. I just want to make sure those options are worth presenting to the patient. Only time will let us truly test Rock and see how it compares considering none of us are equipped to do our own testing.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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