What do we hope to accomplish?

[chip anderson]

jedron:

I did not say "nobody should have an education."

I said: "If a formal education had been require of Ben Franklin or Henry Ford before they could enter into their chosen field of endevor, they would never have accomplished what they did."

Chip

The best physician the world has known only served an apprenticship and that as a carpenter.

[jediron]

Chip said:
I said: "If a formal education had been require of Ben Franklin or Henry Ford before they could enter into their chosen field of endevor, they would never have accomplished what they did.

Back to our brain surgeon. Kid comes out of high school wants to be a brain surgeon, take him or her to the nearest hospital that does brain surgery and say start cutting away boys, because as Chip has said "you will never accomplish what you want" if you have a FORMAl education. So let the games begin, lets start cutting. Can I have that saw? I don't know what you call it but it looks like a saw. Boy this is easier than I thought, whoops I think I hit something, oh well it's only on the job training, next patient please. :hammer:

[chip anderson]

jediron:

Do you always change statemement to suit your meaning. I did not say you will never accomplish what you want. I said Henry Ford and Ben Franklin would not have accomplished what they did had formal education been required before they could have started thier endevors.

And jediron: Opthalmic Dispensing is not brain surgery.

Now why are we bothering to have this little sematics debate?

Chip

[Dannyboy]

Chip, lets say one day GOD gave you an order and told you that you must sell your practice, Cls and all and that to who ever you sell it to must make it continue to go with the highest quality.

Then GOD tells you that your future in heaven depends on the outcome and that in order to prove that quality would continue, you would go to earth and evaluate your decision as a patient.

Chip would sell to a college educated optician ?Lets say this individual has actually spend time learning from the best of the contact lens field instructors. This person knows the in and outs from fitting a PK to keratoconus..from reverse geometry lenses to bifocal rgps. He knows the ins and outs of modifications of cl right there in the office (has his own spindles etc..) and has made the grade..passed his examinations (ABO,NCLE and yes his state board in Florida or New York).

Would you trust him to make you go to heaven?

Or a person who is only ncle certified...worked in the field for two years at a doctors office "fitting" contact lenses...(no fellowship or advanced certifications valid in this story)

Your only two choices are whats on the paper...without your abiliy to find out anything more about them...One with a college degree, one with "experience" Would you go to heaven or would you end up down stairs?

If it was me I would bet on the college educated optician.


Dannyboy;)

[jediron]

Chip seems we are not the only ones in this for sematics. Even Dannyboy is challenging you. Are you up for the test from Jediron
and Dannyboy? If so " Let the games begin".:D

[chip anderson]

Did you ever notice that until recently almost all the courses in contact lens fitting were CLSA members (I am a fellow member since about 1967). This is were the M.D.'s and O.D.'s courses were given and written. Most of the course givers just went to work in the industry and picked it up as they apprenticed and worked in the the lab. A few were geniuses a few were parrots for smarter teachers, but almost all were laymen.

And no I don't have much more time for this discourse. And no I do not feel that a college degree or especially a college degree alone should be required to continue in this field of endevor, I have personaly taught contact lens fitting and prosthetic eye work in medical schools to ophthalmology residents and no one from Louis Girrard, to Joe Soper, or Samuel B. Johnson ever intimated that I was lacking of knowledge on the subject. And yes I do realize there is a great deal I do not know, and will never know but most who know me feel I am the best damn contact lens fitter they ever met.

Chip

[Chris Ryser]

chip anderson said:
.

And no I don't have much more time for this discourse. And no I do not feel that a college degree or especially a college degree alone should be required to continue in this field of endevor, I have personaly taught contact lens fitting and prosthetic eye work in medical schools to ophthalmology residents and no one from Louis Girrard, to Joe Soper, or Samuel B. Johnson ever intimated that I was lacking of knowledge on the subject
Chip

Chip the train is running in your direction.

I really think jediron is just getting blood boiling with not many valid reasons. There have been a lot decent postings from many but jediron is now challenging. I went and copied each ones credential from the optiboard.

jediron' s profile has only one point = optician

I go with my real name on the Optiboard and give a good enough valid hints of what i am and what I do and so do you Chip. Let everybody see it and if jediron wants more chanllenges let him first open up on himself.

Let me allow to post the copy I made.:

September 30th, 1942
Learned about OptiBoard From
Biography Old crazy man who, loves fishing, motorcycle, women and not much else.
Location Ridgeland, MS, USA
Interests Fishing, Optical Stuff, Women
Occupation Optician, Ocularist, Contact Lens Tech.

__________________________________________________

And here is jediron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ICQ Number:
AOL Instant Messenger Handle:
Yahoo Instant Messenger Handle:
Referrals 0
Birthday N/A
Learned about OptiBoard From internet
Biography
Location usa
Interests
Occupation optician


We actually should not get challenged by sombody that only SAYS location USA.....................................

he might be in Tibet or China, or in Nigeria

For everybody to make their own judgement, like a news flash without comments.

[chip anderson]

Thanks Chris:

I am not that upset, I just don't want to get into a mine is bigger than yours argument. I do believe in education, I just don't believe it should be a requirement. I would prefer a good competency test (not just a silly written math test) but a real hands on competency test judged by ones peers, not the O.D.'s or O.M.D.'s although they should be represented. Some other professions (I think C.P.A.'s and Lawyers, although I am not sure) do not require education per see but just passing the bar or the C.P.A. exam.

Many people feel that education is the only means to an end, and then they want to get paid for what they know not what they do.
We have a very top heavy education system in the public schools here, who are paid preportionately to thier education, not thier productivity. Lots of Ph. D.'s and Masters but not capable of turning out a product that read, write or do fifth grade math. And of course all of them believe that throwing more money at the problem and more time (for them) in school will solve the problem.

And of course I see Opticianry as a profession of do-ers not so much academics.

Chip

[jediron]

To Chip and Chris:
I went to Erie Community College and recieved an AAS Degree in Opthalmic Dispensing in 1973. Took the New York boards in 1973,
which were 3 and half days of testing from Geometric Optics to
Contact Lenses (we did use Joe Soper's book on contact lenses).
I live in New York State. I m also ABO certified and belong to NAO. I served on N.Y. state's board for a few years on Optical Dispensing and have been an active member in the Optical community since 1973.
The reason I did not put all the information under my name is confidential and I see no reason to share it with you or especial
Chris. If you can't take a little ribbing then stop whining and go on. :hammer:

PS: Even WMCDONALD thought you (Chris) were against education, beacause he said: "You can't get a driver's license without first learning the "theory" behind it. Education will not hurt..." If you had read all the posts you would have seen, there were more questioning you (Chris) and (Chip) why you were against higher education or college degree. I read almost all the posts, and Chip and Chris, that's the impression I came away with.

:bbg:

[wmcdonald]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
May I ask you to keep in mind that only by working together will we be successful. It will do no good for anyone to throw stones and the profession needs people as passionate as you are. It is imperative to remember that when you write something here, it may not mean to be hurtful or rude, but can easily come out that way. Now, I am not saying anyone was....it is a moot point now. Let us agree to move on. We have achieved the goal here of discussing this point, and I am convinved that we largely agree on the need for SOME form of education. Chip has agreed with us, but also (and correctly, I might add) he wanted to reinforce the fact that the practical (I prefer clinical to convey a more contemporary meaning) training issue cannot be forgotten. We have reached consensus here, so please don't get into negative activities that may damage the efforts. This is Steve's forum, and he does a great job. It is not my busines to correct anyone, so please don't take it that way. I am merely pointing out that we reached agreement here...let us all move forward now.

Best regards,
Warren

[jediron]

Point well taken WMCDOALD.
I never intended for that to happen.
As you know, sometimes when you write, it does not always come across the way you intended it to, even though in your mind you know exaxtly what you intended. When it's in print and people start reading you quote, they can take things and put a whole different lite on the the subject you were broaching with a different meaning and context.
SORRY

[Joann Raytar]

Dr. McDonald (still can't come to call you or Dr. Ferguson Warren or Roy),

I think you just expressed the opinion that many of our members hold recently. The OptiBoard Moderators couldn't have said that better themselves! Thank you for grounding the discussion again! :)

[Chris Ryser]

jediron said:
To Chip and Chris:

If you had read all the posts you would have seen, there were more questioning you (Chris) and (Chip) why you were against higher education or college degree. I read almost all the posts, and Chip and Chris, that's the impression I came away with.

:bbg:

Never ever have I been against education. What I think is that the mechanical side of ophthalmic optics is one of the factors that should MASTERED by an optician. Give em as much theory as you want but they should be GOOD at the mechanical side of the profession.

[jediron]

Chip said in part in his opening thread:
Do we want the public to recognize that we are somehow more talented than the guy at the chain, or cutie in the doctor's office?

I don't know if it's talent perse. But I would like the recognition of
being part of the three O's and not the recognition that most patients give you that your just a cherk taking orders. Now not all patients do that, but you do get a few that won't take your recommedations, instructions or anything you say because right or wrong they feel your just the order taker and the doctor is the
real deal.:hammer:

[Joann Raytar]

jediron said:
Now not all patients do that, but you do get a few that won't take your recommedations, instructions or anything you say because right or wrong they feel your just the order taker and the doctor is the
real deal.

I don't know if any of you have seen the new Lifesavers Candy ad that is set in an eyeglass dispensary. If you have, have you noticed who is dispensing glasses? It isn't an Optician. Regardless of how we percieve dispensing ophthalmics, is this how the public sees it? If it is, then the way we are doing things now just isn't working. Most of the public may not have a clue that we actually exist as an optical field.

[paw]

I haven't seen the Lifesavers Candy ad. Who is doing the dispensing, and how can you tell it's not an optician?

[jediron]

That reminds me of a Steinfeld episode where they go in to buy a pair of glasses from a supposed Optician. Was not exactly the kind of Optician you want the public to know. But Your right Jo, how are we precieved by the public?:bbg:

[Joann Raytar]

paw said:
I haven't seen the Lifesavers Candy ad. Who is doing the dispensing, and how can you tell it's not an optician?

paw,

The dispenser is introduced as a Doctor, they don't mention if it is an OD or an MD.

I would guess it is because the marketing folks at the candy company figured the public would relate to a Doc in a white coat dispensing glasses. (Where they came up with the idea of a 1980's metal frame for the poor girl is beyond me.) The truth is even in most professional offices the Doc themselves rarely dispenses. (Of course the Doc wouldn't get the lenses all smeared with Lifesaver's Candy goo either.)

People seem to know who hygenists, nurses and lab techs are; I wonder how many know "Opticians" even exist anymore. Where did we possibly miss the boat on educating the public about our services?

I am seriously thinking about finding a way to take a survey. First, I have to find enough people to make a survey valid. (Being on OptiBoard so much isn't going to make that very easy. Thanks a bunch OptiBoarders. ;) )

[paw]

It all boils down to the public doesn't understand the definition of the 3 O's, particularly optometrists and opticians. My guess is, most people think opticians fabricate lenses and optometrists examine eyes and dispense glasses.

[jediron]

Jo said:
People seem to know who hygenists, nurses and lab techs are; I wonder how many know "Opticians" even exist anymore. Where did we possibly miss the boat on educating the public about our services?

I am seriously thinking about finding a way to take a survey. First, I have to find enough people to make a survey valid.

To answer your question in a limited way, hygenists are routinely
supported by the dentist who employs them. Another words he introduces them to you and he also comes in for comsultations after they have finished, enhancing in the view of the patient that
this person is more than a mere secretary. (this is not meant to be demeaning to secretaries, it's just to show public preception of each field)
Nurses are in the public view almost all the time and have garnered the reputation as being one step below a Doctor, right or wrong I believe that is what the public percieves.
Lab techs get the same recognition because Doctors routinely say: "were going to send you to the lab for testing", thereby elevating the status of the lab tech and the perception in most peoples eye's as one who is part of the triangle, Doctor, nurse and lab tech.

Most people don't see opticians in this light because you never see a doctor consulting with an optician on what would be the best lens or treatment for this or that patient.
It used to be that doctor A or B would say: "Go see Joe Blow at the optical store and he will take good care of you". Now it's come over to my Optical shop and I will show you what it means to shop in a OD or MD owned place. Most of the time it's merely
higher prices for the same product. Just a few ramblings!

Just a thought Jo, what if you sent your suvey to everybody on Optiboard and have them question there own customers? This way you would get a good cross section of people's views on Opticians.
:bbg:

[Chris Ryser]

Instaed of this continuing endless education discussion you should have gone and join the gang at Midwest.


Here is the copy of Vision Mondays Report:

Midwest Vision Congress Kicks Off with Full Classes, Registration Gain



ROSEMONT, Ill.--The first annual Midwest Vision Congress & Expo, the successor to the AE&S/Vision Council of America's former EyeQuest show and the North Central States Optometric Council's Eyecare Conference, kicked off Thursday with crowded educational sessions and a 15-percent increase in pre-registered attendees over last year's EyeQuest, according to show organizers.

"This is an education-driven meeting with a separate mission from the Vision Expos," commented Eileen Baird, VP of AE&S, which manages International Vision Expo. "Here, education is the focus, while Expo East and West focus on the product side and buying."

The three entities' initial partnership for the event runs for five years, with the intention to "move forward to maximize the educational theme with topics and volume that the states can't offer," said NCSOC president John Nametz, OD.


The next Midwest Vision event is scheduled for May 13-15, 2004, at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center here.


Vol. No: 17:09Issue: 5/19/03

[jediron]

Chris said:
Instaed of this continuing endless education discussion you should have gone and join the gang at Midwest.

Chris you really believe these are just endless discussions we are
having? We are discussing the merits of education so we can draw a consensus on where to go from here, what forum we should have and how we might go about achieving this goal.
I for one think it's been a worth while pursuit.
:D

[Jimbob]

you should all get taught proper to do optical stuff....
simple reason being that you never know when.... we all have a our day to day stuff, but what do you do when something goes different... you can't rely on optiboard to bail you out all the time, you can't rely on other employees, what do you do ?? you should of learnt it...

nuff said

James

[35oldguy]

I agree with 100%. You are in my book a truly educated man!!

Everything I know, I learned. Most of what I know was taught to me. We call this process education. My education has brought me to where I am today, and your education has brought you to where you are today. We are what we are by virtue of our education.

As good as I am, I KNOW I can be better. I am still learning everyday.

I came up in this industry through the apprencticeship program in Massachusetts. I consider myself a good, albeit average optician. Although it is an honorable way to learn, I am convinced that it is the reason our profession is constantly under attack. We may have the knowledge we need, but we lack the creditability for recognition as a profession.We also lack the vehicle to grow as a profession and to broaden our horizons. A formal education is what will provide for our future.

I did not always feel that way. I used to argue strongly in favor of apprenticeship. I had the good fortune to spend some time with Dr's, McDonald and Ferguson and for once decided to listen instead of talk.(EXTREMELY difficult for me) I would stronly suggest that anyone who opposes formal education in practice, spend some time with either of those gentlemen and hear what they have to say. One or both of them should design a 2 hour course explaining why it is necessary and how it can save the profession.


Regarding Licensure. I find it curious that the folks from non licensed states don't seem to favor it and the folks from licensed states would die to protect it. I sense there more than a little envy invlolved in one of those positions. Licensing may be a tax as Chip has said, but more importantly it is a

CREDENTIAL!

Does a license make a good optician- the answer is not necessarily but at least it is proof of meeting entry level talent. Again, more importantly a license makes an optician accountable, to the public, and to the state.

I have yet to hear ONE valid argument in favor of abolishing licensing. If you go to Roy Ferguson's post about the assault on Tennessee Licensing, particularly the reasoning of one Dr Odom, I defy anyone to give logic to his written remarks.Remember when you read them that Dr Odom wants his barber to be licensed.

Believe it or not I started this four hours ago.I was interupted many times so if the post is disjointed please forgive!

hj

[For-Life]

I am going to apply to get into the Master of Science in Management program at my university for the September 2006 start year. I would eventually like to get my PHD and then teach. In between then I will work in the industry, and I might apply for the certification to become a financial planner.

What I want in life is to get married (though I am still young) and enjoy everyday of my life. Money is great, but happiness if better.

My goal is to consistantly improve myself. I want to be a better person and I think I am on the right route.