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Thread: Shamir PAL?

  1. #1
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    Shamir PAL?

    I have been given alot of differant info reguarding this lens manufacturer. What I know is that they are pretty inexpensive for the labs, and that even though they are "based" in San Diego, CA, they come from Israel. Is this right?

    A couple of labs this way that are pushing it say that it is the most forward design, newest thinking, blah blah blah. The interesting point was that they said that they came up with the Varilux technology and did research and developement for Essilor. I claim total ignorance to this subject but this lens has been in my face lately so I want to see if anyone has anything to say. Thanks...

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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    Aaron,

    Shamir has been in the R&D side of progressives for something like 30 years. They did tons of research and made the molds for many of the lens manufacturers. I think you can find a history on Shamir's Israeli site Shamir .

    As for the lens, I have been using it for over a year now and have nothing but praise for it. They offer a wide range of options from 1.67 to short corridor and now they are launching a polarized version of Genesis. I have successfully converted old wearers of both Comfort/Panamic and Gradal Top. With comments from patients like WOW! I tend to stay with it. Give it a try and I am confident that you will like the results.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    Master OptiBoarder rep's Avatar
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    Supose to be great

    I don't have any first hand knowledge yet, but according to at least one national speaker on this board who I know gave seminars at vision expo east this is reputed to be an outstanding new molded progressive.

    I actually received a sample voucher to try it out but I let it expire before I got it filled.

    Rep

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    OptiBoardaholic hip chic's Avatar
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    Although I hadn't known the history of Shamir, I first read about it on this board and talked with a respected, knowledgable lab owner in my area about the product about a year ago. Said lab owner had nothing but great things to say about the company and all of their lens designs. I, too, have successfully converted Varilux wearers to this product and have heard only great reactions.
    Of course, I would caution against thinking that EVERYONE can wear this lens. The intermediate area is short and the lens is not a good solution to those who sit in front of their computers for MOST hours of their day. But, truly, for most this is a wonderful lens.

    hip chic

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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    hip chic said:
    Of course, I would caution against thinking that EVERYONE can wear this lens. The intermediate area is short and the lens is not a good solution to those who sit in front of their computers for MOST hours of their day. But, truly, for most this is a wonderful lens.

    hip chic
    I too would agree that this one particular lens is not for everyone but Shamir has a great family of lenses. Small frame, try Picollo their short corridor. At the computer all day? Well you need Shamir Office computer lenses.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    These are great lenses, the short corridor piccolo is great for those tiny frames. So far, everyone I've dispensed loves 'em.

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    I use thier Office lens for VDT and extended near applications. I can't think of a single non-adapt since I started using it about 3 or 4 years ago.

    Patients love it.

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    Thanks

    Thank you for all the feedback. It looks like I might give it a try. I knew an Optometrist that actually imported the lenses straight from Isreal for a FRACTION of the cost.

    My nagging question is whether or not anyone knows about their relationship with Varilux..............if any...

    Thanks again...

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    Ophthalmic Optician
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    Many of the posts mentioned "converting" patients from Varilux. What is the main reason for the conversions ? Were they not happy with the VLX, or was it a better price ?

    I am very slow to change my views on something that is working good right now for me (admittedly, this is not always a profitable trait). Are you folks getting a better price from Shamir than from VLX ? When I compared (about 14 months ago). The Shamir was about $3 more on most lenses, and when I figured all the co-op I got from VLX (Shamir wasn't offering any at the time), I really saw no reason to try it.

    Can anyone convince me ? I really am open to new lenses (sometimes!)

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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    Johns said:
    Many of the posts mentioned "converting" patients from Varilux. What is the main reason for the conversions ? Were they not happy with the VLX, or was it a better price ?

    I am very slow to change my views on something that is working good right now for me (admittedly, this is not always a profitable trait). Are you folks getting a better price from Shamir than from VLX ? When I compared (about 14 months ago). The Shamir was about $3 more on most lenses, and when I figured all the co-op I got from VLX (Shamir wasn't offering any at the time), I really saw no reason to try it.

    Can anyone convince me ? I really am open to new lenses (sometimes!)
    You may want to look at Shamir's rebate program. We earned enough last year to take th entire office to Vegas Expo and have already earned 1600.00 this year. In fact, they just announced the extension of the program until the end of the year. Look at the newsroom forum for the announcement.

    To answer your question about Vx, We did not have a problem with the lenses. They are a great lens that performs very well. We liked the reps presentation and the Dr actually was blown away by his Genesis that we did. In his words "These are the most SV like progressives that I have ever worn". Patients love the lens as well and they have a broad enough family of lenses to fit all of our needs. Especially now that Shamir has launched a polarized lens now. Sooo...if it is a great lens and they want to pays us a great rebate who am I to complain?
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    since 1964 Homer's Avatar
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    Cpmparison ...

    has anyone had the opprotunity to compare the Zeiss RD and the Shimar Office?

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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    Re: Cpmparison ...

    Homer said:
    has anyone had the opprotunity to compare the Zeiss RD and the Shimar Office?
    Homer, I have used both lenses and like the Shamir Office lots better. I particularly like the lower fitting height needed. Zeiss RD needs something like 25mm recommended height. I routinely fit the Office at 17/18mm with no issues what so ever. I do have an issue once in a while with some of my Microsoft engineers. Seems they are complaining because they can't see their dual 21" monitors at the same time :) Try the Shamir. I think you and your patients will be happy.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    Direct: (630) 274-6136
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    More Than A Patternless Edger Company

  13. #13
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    Again...

    How do they compare in price ?

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    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    aaron

    I've got a couple relatives, one of whom has something to do with Shamir, in Isreal. I was told Shamir is a premier engineering firm whose optical designs and molds find their way to several other brands. If you go to their web site you'll also discover they did a little work with NASA, too. I discovered from local sources (I live next to Johnson Space Center) they participated in the corrective mirrors for the Hubbel. Of course, one thing has nothing to do with another, but at least there's some other validation of their optical expertise.

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    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    First, having dispensed Shamir PALs in the past, I would agree that the company makes a very nice progressive lens.

    The interesting point was that they said that they came up with the Varilux technology and did research and developement for Essilor.
    That strikes me as a very interesting claim- since Varilux has been around far longer than Shamir has been in the ophthalmic business... From what I've seen, Shamir did design a PAL that is currently being developed by another manufacturer, but it wasn't for Essilor.

    Regarding rebates, which were also mentioned, having managed several private practices I'm really surprised that ODs feel okay that the lens company has effectively decided to take $10/pair (based on another manufacturer's spiff program) from them and redistribute it to their employees. I must've worked in the wrong offices...

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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    Pete Hanlin said:
    First, having dispensed Shamir PALs in the past, I would agree that the company makes a very nice progressive lens.

    The interesting point was that they said that they came up with the Varilux technology and did research and developement for Essilor.
    Pete, This is interesting information. I have not heard that Shamir claimed to have done RD for Essilor. What is your source for this info? I looked at Shamir's website Shamir Milestones (which I posted incorrectly earlier) and although they did mention that they were one of the first ten to produce their own lenses, they did not mention anyone by name. They do have another division Inray that does custom molds etc but again no mention of anyone specifically by name. I never thought that there was any question that Varilux pretty much invented PALs back in what? the 1950's?

    As for rebates and spiffs, I have worked for Drs that their attitude was "When you pay the bills you can get the spiffs" and others that are more generous. I prefer the generous types by far. The Dr I currently work for uses this as an office slush fund that we decide what to do with. It is a great morale booster and does not really cost the Dr any additional funds from the practice to subsidize our "just" rewards.
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    We usually use the accumulation of these kinds of rebates to pay for office luncheons for special occasions.

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    Rising Star igirl's Avatar
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    Regarding rebates, which were also mentioned, having managed several private practices I'm really surprised that ODs feel okay that the lens company has effectively decided to take $10/pair (based on another manufacturer's spiff program) from them and redistribute it to their employees. I must've worked in the wrong offices...
    In the offices I do business with, I am always very careful to make sure the owner or doctor owners are aware of any rebates or spiff programs made available by my lab or manufacturers. While there are companies that will attempt to reward employess and buy business by "oops" forgetting to inform the owner, Shamir is not one.

    In my experiance, what Lee said rings true, and if the owners DO decide to share the rewards, it results in more dedicated and happier employees.

  19. #19
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Lee,
    Someone else reported that a Shamir representative claimed the company had done design work for Varilux. I was merely stating that the claim is extremely unlikely (in fact, it is an erroneous statement pure and simple).

    igirl,
    While I know Shamir does offer incentives on sales (as does pretty much every manufacturer) I'm not familiar with the particular incentives Shamir offers. I did not mean to imply that Shamir offers incentives to employees without their employer's knowledge- sorry if that was implied in my earlier post.

    As you indicated, I know there are companies out there who are paying incentive checks directly to the employee's address (and I'm sure there are also companies who make every effort to get the money back to the proper person- only to have a dishonest employee short-circuit the process).

    What still amazes me is that more accounts don't see cash rebate programs for what they are, however (either a redistribution of their money to their employees, or a refund of their own money).
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    Master OptiBoarder Lee Prewitt's Avatar
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    Pete, I would agree that it is unlikely Shamir did design work for Varilux unless they did some mold design consulting or something similar.

    Rebates are a funny thing. Lets not even talk about diverting funds to employees without permission (which I think is very dishonest on everyone's part) for a moment. If a manufacture can offer rebates on a long term basis (Shamir is now going on 2 years with their rebate. Do minimum of 15 pairs/month and get $12 back for each pair) why not just lower the price to begin with ? Rebates traditionally are designed (like a sale) to spur usage in the short term basis. Comments...
    Lee Prewitt, ABOM
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    As the starter of the thread I feel it neccesary to clarify my beginning statement. I was told from my local lab owner that Shamir did R&D / consulting for Essilor. They of course did not develop the Varilux technology.

    As regards rebates. They are common place because they work. From the owners point of view it would make them just as happy to buy a lens at 12$ less that to get a monthly rebate. But to set a minimum you must reach in order to get the rebate you make the dispenser more aware of specific numbers. The "rebate" program having an end date also means that the percieved price does not change. If you mark the lense down 12$ until the end of the year and then mark it back up, the perception is that the price was raised, not that a special program was in effect for the previous months. And lets face it. The average optician is a creature of habit and this is a well known fact. So by offering a cash incentive (albeit to whoever is taking) they are trying to start a routine in the dispenser or doctors mind.

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  22. #22
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification, aaron. I didn't want to come across as being too defensive about a competitor's claim or anything, but I find it extremely unlikely that Shamir would have even been remotely involved with Essilor's R&D work. The Essilor and Varilux PAL design teams work under tight security and restricted access, and I just can't conceive a situation where they would have brought in someone from the outside. Besides, Essilor spends vast sums of money on their own R&D programs...

    BTW, and this is just an honest inquiry- the first design I see from Shamir was the Panorama in 1996. Is this when Shamir entered the PAL market? I'm not going anywhere with that question- I'm just curious concerning when Shamir entered the market. I have stats on Panorama, Genesis, and Piccolo- are there any other Shamir designs out there?

    The Piccolo does have a very short progression channel. The Piccolo reaches 85% of a +2.00 add power about 1mm shorter than a Panamic/Comfort does. The AOCompact is slightly shorter to 85% (0.2mm) than Piccolo, and I've seen wearers studies that indicate clear patient preference for Comfort over Compact when fit at 17mm. I suppose if you want to go really REALLY low in the frame, a Piccolo or Compact might make some sense (still, when you're progressing in such a short channel you have to wonder how much intermediate you're really getting- which is the whole reason for PALs in the first place). BTW, the Rodenstock Life XS is the absolute shortest progression to 85% (<10mm to 85% progression).

    Perhaps its a good time for a reality check, though. When I was dispensing, I fit patients who demanded a frame that gave them a PAL fitting height of <16 with blendeds, which worked excellently up to about a +2.00 add (at which point the blur zone around a blended gets too wide for comfort- and the patient begins to demand an intermediate zone anyway).

    Point being, there aren't THAT many fits that really demand extreme lenses like Life XS, Piccolo, Compact. The fits that do seem to warrant them (<16, which is about as low as I would fit a Comfort) probably shouldn't be in PALs anyway. When your primary goal is to make the progression as short as physically possible, there is simply no way the overall optical properties of the design are optimal (if it were possible, companies wouldn't launch short designs- they would just make their optimal designs short).

    Anyway, great discussion on Shamir- I always enjoy researching other designs and tracking down hard R&D data.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    I take anything told to me with a grain of salt. No doubt my lab rep was trying to sell me on a lens that I was not accustomed to using and as a result may have embelished some of their accomplishments.


    Pete,

    Forgive my ignorance. From a dispensing aspect my only concern is optimal vision for the patient. Not rebates or tenths of millimeters. The "shortest" may not always be the best because it may work with so little intermediate that it in effect is a glorified blended bifocal. But I digress. My question for you is why the minimum fitting height for a comfort when I first began in the industry was 22 or something like that. Granted I entered the industry about seven years ago and I am only 27 now. Now I am told I can go as low as 17? And if 85% of the add is at that point, where is 100% of it? These questions are not meant to be confrontational, I just am slightly puzzled. I would like to have a "lens of choice" but since I don't have the benefit of knowing the intricate design of each PAL I have to go by my patients response. And most of them like the PAL if they like me:D


    But maybe that is off the subject. Thanks for the info


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    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Okay, let's play "Get Pete to Say Something that will Get Him Fired." :D

    You don't care about 0.1s of a mm??? Good! Then you and I agree completely.

    Look, here's the deal. The whole point of a Progressive Addition Lens is to provide a smooth progression from the distance vision through the intermediate to the near vision. The fact that we eliminate the line in the process is really secondary from a visual comfort viewpoint.

    Therefore, you are correct- The "shortest" may not always be the best because it may work with so little intermediate that it in effect is a glorified blended bifocal.

    However, the entire market is screaming for "short corridor PALs." Its as if Opticians and Optometrists just figure the lens manufacturers can still provide optimal vision in a shorter progression. As you have realized, when you shorten up the progression, you begin to lose the intermediate- the only advantage left is the elimination of the "line."

    My question for you is why the minimum fitting height for a comfort when I first began in the industry was 22 or something like that. Granted I entered the industry about seven years ago and I am only 27 now. Now I am told I can go as low as 17?
    I believe when I sat for my ABOC the correct answer to "What is the minimal fitting height recommended for PALs?" was 24mm (answer "C," as I recall). So, how is it that this "minimum" height has been shortened? More to the point, how is it that we could launch Comfort with a 22mm recommendation and then just magically lower it to 18mm?

    The answer is- an ideal fit probably IS around 22mm or so for most PALs. However, the term "minimum fitting height" has been changed by the industry over the past few years. It used to mean "What is the lowest height at which patients will be able to optimally use a large portion of the reading area?" Now it means "Exactly HOW low can I possibly fit this design and still provide at least some full-power reading area for the patient."

    In my opinion, if an Optician is routinely fitting any PAL at heights below 17-19mm, s/he isn't providing the best vision for his/her patients- period. But, this leads us to another question-

    ...and if 85% of the add is at that point, where is 100% of it?
    First, the reason 85% is chosen as a reference point is this is the level at which most patients can actually use their addition for reading. For example, if you have a +2.00 add you get about +1.75 of that add and you should be able to read somewhat comfortably. So, if a design reaches 85% of its add at around 12.5mm below the fitting cross, you can assume that the patient is probably using most of the area below that point for near point function. So, if you fit Comfort at 17mm, you can assume the patient is reading with something approaching the bottom 5mm of the lens. That's the honest answer.

    Another, more important, consideration is- how does the PAL go about getting to that reading zone? Take Blendeds as an example of an extremely hard PAL design. They have no progression until about 1mm above the reading zone. Then they progress 100% in the space of 1mm. "Short corridor" designs usually work in one of two ways. Either they have all the progression in a tiny little band (like a blended), or they "cheat" by placing the fitting cross down into the progression. Oh yes, there is definitely a design that does just this! The fitting cross is 2mm down into the progression- which is just about exactly like the progression in their "normal" PAL. Effectively, the company could have saved the expense of coming out with new packaging by simply stating "Hey, fit our standard lens 2mm high if you have to get a short fit."

    That said, if you really want one lens to do it all give Comfort a shot. If you just can't talk that patient out of the 15mm fit, fit Comfort 2mm high. This is a much better option than "bumping the add" (for reasons I went into on another post). Maybe the patient will need extra pantoscopic tilt- or s/he might need to tilt their head down a bit. Truth is, if you want an intermediate zone in a really short "B" frame, that's the price you pay.

    So, what is Panamic for then? Ask the PAL wearing patient if they like their PALs. Most- regardless of what they are wearing- will say "Sure, it works pretty well." Now ask them what they would change about their PALs if they could change anything. Assuming they are in for their yearly checkup, they will say something witty like "Well, I wish I didn't have to hold things so far away! After saying "Well, duh- your new Rx will fix that," ask if there is anything else. If they mention swimming in the bottom of the lens or stairs that move around or something along that line, consider a switch to Panamic. If they are wearing Comfort, chances are they won't have these symptoms- so leave 'em in Comfort. Otherwise, if they mention it- try fitting Panamic. Take new- accurate- measurements (even if they seem happy with where their current lenses are fit- remember, Panamic works on a different principle than other PALs) and enjoy.

    I hope I didn't market-hype those responses up too much. I try to be a practical person. Use Comfort and Panamic and pretty much all your patients will love you. Avoid fits below 19mm or so, and if you have to, raise the height a bit when the fit is below 17mm.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

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    Thanks for the time spent to reply to my post Pete. I have fit Comfort since I was an optical pup and had good success. I am just always open to new things.

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