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Thread: VSP's latest white elephant: Anti-Bacterial AR?

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    VSP's latest white elephant: Anti-Bacterial AR?

    The VSP marketing department must be excruciatingly bored lately!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    The VSP marketing department must be excruciatingly bored lately!
    Yeah, but it's going to work. Just can't wait for the patients to come in asking for it, and the koolaid mixing doctors are going to be recommending it.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Had a sit down with a VSP rep a couple weeks ago and couldn't get an answer to how it works if the top coat is a hard coat.

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    and anti-bacterial does not mean anti-viral, which is what most people are concerned about right now. How many patients are going to come in asking for glasses that keep the covid away? Be prepared to have a good response.

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    The coating works by either having silver oxide or zinc oxide in the stack. The problem with any antibacterial including antibiotics is that they are not 100% effective. Over time you have a surface covered resistant bacteria. Does the coating kill Covid you need clinical proof before you become a yay or nay sayer.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    The coating works by either having silver oxide or zinc oxide in the stack. The problem with any antibacterial including antibiotics is that they are not 100% effective. Over time you have a surface covered resistant bacteria. Does the coating kill Covid you need clinical proof before you become a yay or nay sayer.
    Seriously- If it does prove effective against the novel Covid virus which may eventually prove here to stay, how expensive would it be to treat sample lenses as many of them come with an AR coat?

    Assuming sample lenses AR process similar to our rx finished blanks is the oxide fairly cheap to add to the process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    T Does the coating kill Covid you need clinical proof before you become a yay or nay sayer.
    I don't know but people assume that scratch resistant lenses mean scratch proof, so you know how the antibacterial conversation will go. "You sold me these antibacterial glasses and I still got pink eye!" OR something to that effect. Perhaps I'm just feeling a little bitter and cranky today.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Saved a publication by Satis Vacuum on AR and in 2002 there is a picture of a stack where the second layer from ther top is SiO2.

    Is this the same but marketers now are running with it as the proverbial "New & Improved" Tide making our whites even whiter than before?

    Quick look up shows that's silicone so is this an 11th (or greater) layer?

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    We all know the public cannot in ANY way differentiate between bacteria, viruses, and proof vs resistant. Nor do they have any sense of degrees of efficacy. This should be fun! LOL

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    Some technical information. Si is silicone not silver, silver is ng. Vsp has a patent on the process which means they can create a stack containing one of the antibacterial elements that will still function as an ar coating and meet all the other necessary requirements like scratch resistance and non crazing etc. if this is proven to be a positive for the health of the consumer don’t fight it take the easy road. Liability will be on VSP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    Does the coating kill Covid you need clinical proof before you become a yay or nay sayer.
    Well, since it's anti-bacterial and not anti-viral, I highly doubt it kills Covid. I certainly don't need any kind of proof to be a naysayer, if there is no compelling evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof to show the efficacy obviously lies with VSP. I will remain very skeptical of any claim from any lens company, especially when the only material presented is marketing jargon. They say its anti-bacterial certified based on ISO 22196:2011. I'll believe that. But what is the point of it? Other than confusing more consumers. Where are the white papers, where are the peer reviewed studies? What good does it do to have an anti-bacterial coating if the edges of the lenses aren't coated? If the frame holding the lenses isn't coated? Come on. If they have the answers to these questions and have the proof that somehow this coating will reduce bacterial infections to a statistically significant degree in wearers, I'm all for it. I think that would be ground breaking for glasses and non-Rx glasses alike. I assume if they had this information they would be plastering everywhere. Until then, I'll file it in the round bin with Ott's Full Spectrum lenses, and the Bates method.

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    Copper zinc and silver are anti viral as well as anti bacterial. Any added protection is a plus, masks do not filter 100% but recent knowledge from the medical community has concluded that most people who had mild cases of Covid were wearing a mask and that mask reduced their exposure so their immune system could handle the reduced Covid invasion. It is also now understood that other immunity vaccines have trained your immune system how to react to the virus thus reducing the severity of the virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensman11 View Post
    Copper zinc and silver are anti viral as well as anti bacterial. Any added protection is a plus, masks do not filter 100% but recent knowledge from the medical community has concluded that most people who had mild cases of Covid were wearing a mask and that mask reduced their exposure so their immune system could handle the reduced Covid invasion. It is also now understood that other immunity vaccines have trained your immune system how to react to the virus thus reducing the severity of the virus.

    Are you suggesting anti-bacterial AR coating are the equivalent of wearing a mask? What do masks have to do with this, at all? Do you work for VSP?

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    If their people were smart, they would have used "Antimicrobial", ever more murky, so people might think its antiviral, even if its only antibacterial.

    I've been told more than once I'd be great at marketing, if I didn't have a soul.

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    I don’t work for vsp never did never will. Your jumping to conclusions based on your opinion nothing more. I never said this replaces a mask that would be absurd I did say masks are not 100% effective. If the lenses can block some viruses from entering your eye than it is a positive. I don’t see how the frame has anything to do with it or the edge of the lens. I not trying to sell you anything just relaying information. You can accept it or not your choice.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Lensman11- Just to be clear and what I find hard to understand is this addition to the stack is able to leak (for lack of a better word) through the top coat to produce a bacteria affecting coat?

    Yes/No

    Or is it something else?

    I assumed the top coat sealed everything underneath in- even at a micron level.

    BACTERIAL SIZE RANGE. Bacillus subtilis, Staphylococcus aureus, Escherichia coli, and Caulobacter crescentus, the primary models for bacterial cell biology, are more or less typical in size, with individual cell volumes between ∼0.4–3 µm3 (or 0.4–3.0 femtoliters; femtoliter or fL is equal to 1015 L).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484965/

    Thank you for bringing your knowledge to the thread. It's obviously much greater than mine.

    (No shock there!)

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    I worked for a company that developed and implemented antimicrobial surfaces using reactive heavy metal oxides. I can say that it does work, but, it takes time. If I remember correctly, contact time to destroy 99% of bacteria was on the order of 5 minutes. Also, the effect wears off of surfaces, and has to be renewed. I can see an antibacterial coating having almost no benefit for lenses. Unless one never washes their hands, is constantly touching their lenses, and works in an environment with rather unpleasant microbes, I just don't see any value to it. Overall, it seems like a big waste of time and effort, except to part the general public with their money.

    Regarding COVID-19, it is possible to become infected via the ocular route. So far the only cases reported have been direct ocular inoculation (people touching on or very near their eyes). As far as I am aware, there have been no published cases of a person seeing an ocular infection by walking through viral particles in the air. Also, as anyone that wears corrective eyeglasses knows from wearing them and walking into a gas that irritates ones eyes, glasses only provide some protection against it interacting with the ocular surface, not complete protection. As such, I don't see an antibacterial coating having much, if any clinical benefit in this manner either.

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    To have a comprehensive understanding how this works Google patent for antimicrobial AR coating. There are also many articles on the possibility of Covid entering thru your eyes. As an eyecare professional you evaluate all the information available to you and make recommendations based on your opinions. The recommendations from the CDC have been evolving since the beginning of the Covid outbreak and they will continue to do so. Science is about learning. “An expert is someone who has experienced everything that can go wrong “

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    ...I just don't see any value to it. Overall, it seems like a big waste of time and effort, except to part the general public with their money...
    DING DING DING! Chicken dinner over here. :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    DING DING DING! Chicken dinner over here. :D
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    Regarding COVID-19, it is possible to become infected via the ocular route.
    I've been wearing a shield when I get close to my patients (for instance measuring PD/SH) and then removing it when I am not close. I still wear an N95 and paper mask. That being said, I have been unfortunate enough to have someone take off their mask when I didn't expect it and start yelling. So really, I probably should keep the shield on even when I just answer the door since people can't seem to behave properly. That being said, I think the chances are slim that I would still get infected. However after a coworker had covid and was too sick to work for 3 weeks, I think I'll be on the safe side. The science is changing daily which is why CDC recommendations keep changing. So if we over react and protect ourselves more and clean more... what does it hurt? Nothing.

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    The first patent for a Progressive in the US was granted to Estelle Glancy on behalf of American Optical in 1924. No product reached the market until the 1960’s. Mostly due to non acceptance of the concept by the optical community. When the early adapters starting selling progressives it was a very rocky rd. Sell 1, sell 2, sell 3 and them number 4 is a dismal failure. I will never sell these lenses again was a constant call. Look where we are now. New concepts take patience, time and a desire to lead not follow.

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    We don't need antibacterial AR coating.

    We do need antibacterial nose pads, however. Eeww.

    How about that, VSP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    We don't need antibacterial AR coating.

    We do need antibacterial nose pads, however. Eeww.

    How about that, VSP?
    Now that I could get behind. I have known more than a few people that have had issues with skin/surface contact regarding eyeglasses and subsequent development of acneform eruptions (it's the same phenomenon for teenagers that get shoulder eruptions from backpacks, etc... the science on it isn't 100%, but the best estimates are it has something to do with pressure forcing microbes below the epidermis. If you could kill them with contact, I would imagine it should work)

    Quote Originally Posted by mervinek View Post
    I've been wearing a shield when I get close to my patients (for instance measuring PD/SH) and then removing it when I am not close. I still wear an N95 and paper mask. That being said, I have been unfortunate enough to have someone take off their mask when I didn't expect it and start yelling. So really, I probably should keep the shield on even when I just answer the door since people can't seem to behave properly. That being said, I think the chances are slim that I would still get infected. However after a coworker had covid and was too sick to work for 3 weeks, I think I'll be on the safe side. The science is changing daily which is why CDC recommendations keep changing. So if we over react and protect ourselves more and clean more... what does it hurt? Nothing.
    Dr. Fauci himself has endorsed ocular barriers for those who have the potential for high risk exposures. I have no doubt that we all fall into that group. Personally, I wear an OSHA approved ocular barrier every time I interact with the public, in a professional and personal capacity. But, I have risk factors that would make a COVID-19 diagnosis rather perilous, more so than for the average person, so I take no risks.
    Last edited by Lelarep; 08-13-2020 at 02:24 PM.

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