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Thread: I think Zeiss is now in a very good position for a change.

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    As a non-official shill, I've seen it on some lenses and while I think it's cool (and I think lens branding may just work) I do get worried some patient will see it, and gripe.

    We'll see.
    Don't get worried, expect it.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak47 View Post
    Which US Zeiss locations have you had any luck with? Do all of the 1.74 Individual still get produced in Germany or are there US locations for this now? Its been a few years, but the turn time used to be atrocious.
    Either Germany or Japan for all 1.74 Zeiss Individual.

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    I just noticed they are also etching what appears to be a small "QR code" onto the temple edge on regular Single vision A/R coated jobs as well.

  4. #79
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter ak47's Avatar
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    FYI, I ordered a smartlife individual 1.67 with duravision platinum last week and requested no branding, and received today without branding !

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak47 View Post
    FYI, I ordered a smartlife individual 1.67 with duravision platinum last week and requested no branding, and received today without branding !
    I knew someone with some Brains would win the arguement there eventually!

  6. #81
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    I dispense hundreds of Zeiss lenses every month, all of which have the Zeiss logo in the corner, all of which come out in exactly the right place (since we specify the exact shape), all of which have AR (because why would you not have Duravision Platinum) and have not had a single customer complain.

    It's such a nice finishing touch, as well as a guarantee of quality. I really don't understand the problem.

    Maybe it's a regional thing?

  7. #82
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    Interesting. I've literally never has a Zeiss lens give me a "WOW" effect. Except for their camera glass - in particular their cost! I found their PALS to be pretty average when I used them (probably been 6 years back now mind you), but their top AR would craze in a stiff breeze. Not sure if they ever fixed that or not. And at least at the time, their lab bills were pretty crazy as well. Either that, or the local E lab was somehow able to give us a rockin price list to compete. *shrug* I'd like to see something truly innovative and that lasts (no scratching/crazing). Might try again some day...

  8. #83
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter ak47's Avatar
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    Pop quiz, hotshots. Say we order a Zeiss SV Individual and specify fitting height of 20 and panto of zero. The OC height produced will be A) 20, B) between 16 and 17. SPOILER ALERT: The lenses we got back are B, not A ???

  9. #84
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    Zeiss Individual SV is positioned with the pupil 4mm above the prismatic centre so it sounds like they were made correctly. You should glaze them like a progressive with a drop of 4mm.

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    they always use prism thinning like that

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    Hmmm...standard 4 mm doesn't sound very "INDIVIDUAL" to me. I thought panto = zero would lead to optical centers at my specified fitting height???

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_S View Post
    Zeiss Individual SV is positioned with the pupil 4mm above the prismatic centre so it sounds like they were made correctly. You should glaze them like a progressive with a drop of 4mm.

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    The lenses are fully optimised so I really wouldn't worry about it. I think Zeiss know what they are doing.

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    I would hope lensgrinder can comment on this.

  14. #89
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak47 View Post
    Hmmm...standard 4 mm doesn't sound very "INDIVIDUAL" to me. I thought panto = zero would lead to optical centers at my specified fitting height???
    No direct relationship because the software (when POW capable) corrects for any misalignment of the lens and visual optical axes. The 4mm 'drop' reduces lens thickness by aligning the PRP closer to the 180 line.

    That's one of the advantages of POW optimized free form surfacing: 15˚ of panto tilt on a zero drop Seiko PAL and the software corrects the power error and oblique astigmatism at most/all angles of gaze.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  15. #90
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    I'm at the level of AK47, here. I would like to know.

    Also, I was just told that face form angle data is warehoused by Zeiss labs on most frames, and that we get "free" face-form optimization on all the Precision series lenses. Is that true?

  16. #91
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    Grandpappy Robert, are you saying, in a non-mansplainy way, that

    --"back in the bad old days, if you wanted to minimize (some kind of) errors (from some eye's center of rotation alignment with the optical axis of the lens or whatsmajiggit when in downgaze), you had no choice other than to lower the optical center of the lens 1mm per degree of pantoscopic tilt..."

    --"now in these newfangled ages with these computeees, they can put the optical center of the lens nice and low to keep that lens thin as a hungry mudpuppy, but surface the optics such that the patient views through a point in the lens that is optimized for straight ahead and down gaze (and maybe lateral gaze but maybe not because of limited face-form frame options)??????

    In other words, are you saying they can "disassociate" the optical center with the "optimal spot" for optics?
    Last edited by drk; 09-22-2020 at 09:46 PM.

  17. #92
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Grandpappy Robert, are you saying, in a non-mansplainy way, that

    --"back in the bad old days, if you wanted to minimize (some kind of) errors from (some eye's center of rotation alignment with the optical axis of the lens or whatsmajiggit when in downgaze), you had no choice other than to lower the optical center of the lens 1mm per degree of pantoscopic tilt..."

    --"now in these newfangled ages with these computeees, they can put the optical center of the lens nice and low to keep that lens thin as a hungry mudpuppy, but surface the optics such that the patient views through a point in the lens that is optimized for straight ahead and down gaze (and maybe lateral gaze but maybe not because of limited face-form frame options)??????

    In other words, are you saying they can "disassociate" the optical center with the "optimal spot" for optics?
    Yes sonny, you are absolutely correct, except for the bold part where the relationship is .5mm per 1˚ of pantoscopic tilt.

    I do get some relatively simple PAL Rxs on occasion. When their POW values look close to default, I'll use a non-POW capable lens to save my client a few bucks, if the fundamental PAL design is appropriate for their needs. (I charge for the extra time/work/expertise for POW measurements in addition to the increase in lens price).

    Note: most dumb and smart PALs start out with default values of about 5˚ and 8˚ for the wrap and panto tilt respectively, and 13mm for vertex distance. There is significantly more aberration that can be corrected when the tilt values are larger than the default values, as opposed to lower values. Any large deviation in vertex distance should also trigger a decision to use POW optimized PALs.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Last edited by Robert Martellaro; 09-22-2020 at 03:04 PM.
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  18. #93
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply.

    I think I get the point, but I don't understand how they do such things.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Thanks for the reply.

    I think I get the point, but I don't understand how they do such things.
    Your welcome. I like the familylike atmosphere here.

    See: https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...l=1#post418640

    Robert
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  20. #95
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Here's the white paper referenced in the above link.

    https://www.zeiss.co.uk/content/dam/...aper_15630.pdf
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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  21. #96
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    That was a nice read. He really did a good job balancing meaty optical physics with understandable language for the rest of us.

    One thing he chose not to dicuss was "why tilt a lens, in the first place?".

    Here's how I understand it, and see if you concur:

    The eye rotates as we go about seeing stuff, and mostly up and down. If the lens wasn't tilted with panto, it would be farther away from the eye in downgaze, and the optics would be different.

    So, we tilt the lens in closer at the bottom but then that screws up the powers in straight-ahead gaze somewhat (and it really messes up the top, but who cares?).

    So to compensate that, we drop the optical center a little. Now, I'm not sure what this achieves.

    So, in other words we're trying to average out or split the difference between straight-ahead gaze and downgaze (and we are ignoring side-gaze and up gaze).


    Soooo...with custom optics, we can just zap the correct powers anywhere on the old lens that we want. (Maybe I should look at Brent's Tscherning Ellipse for near vision, too.) Is this correct?

    Heck, it occurs to me (as in the post above) that we can have zero panto all the time, if we wanted it. (But then we'd get some reflection issues, I'd think. Mostly, zero panto is from fat cheeks and/or big eyesize.)
    Last edited by drk; 09-23-2020 at 09:49 AM.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    That was a nice read. He really did a good job balancing meaty optical physics with understandable language for the rest of us.

    One thing he chose not to dicuss was "why tilt a lens, in the first place?".
    My books are at the office, so from memory:

    1) Our eyes/orbits are angled down slightly, maybe so that our ancestors didn't walk over cliffs!
    2) We tend to lower our gaze when focusing on near objects.
    3) Minimize vertex distance on the downgaze.
    4) Facial bone structure generally protrudes at the brow as opposed to the cheek.

    Here's how I understand it, and see if you concur:

    The eye rotates as we go about seeing stuff, and mostly up and down. If the lens wasn't tilted with panto, it would be farther away from the eye in downgaze, and the optics would be different.

    So, we tilt the lens in closer at the bottom but then that screws up the powers in straight-ahead gaze somewhat (and it really messes up the top, but who cares?).

    So to compensate that, we drop the optical center a little. Now, I'm not sure what this achieves.
    It aligns the optical axis of the lens with the center of rotation of the eye (see image below).

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Martin's Rule.jpg  
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
    Wauwatosa Wi.
    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak47 View Post
    I would hope lensgrinder can comment on this.

    The PRP location serves as a reference point to check power and prism.
    This point does not necessarily represent the optical center of the lens since a free form lens lacks an optical center.
    Although the rule of thumb is to lower the optical center 0.5mm per 1º of tilt in a spherical or toric lens, more is taken into account with a free form SV and the point from which the distribution starts is based on wrap, tilt, center of rotation distance, and other criteria.
    You can look at a map with the same power, material and thickness, but with different PoW and you will notice a different distribution of power.




    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post


    Also, I was just told that face form angle data is warehoused by Zeiss labs on most frames, and that we get "free" face-form optimization on all the Precision series lenses. Is that true?

    All ZEISS free form lenses are compensated based on default PoW measurements, this includes free form SV, Digital(anti-fatigue) and Office lenses.
    Last edited by lensgrinder; 09-28-2020 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Added content

  24. #99
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Ok, thanks for answering.

    Let me be explicit...If I'm ordering a Pure (which doesn't have a face-form option) for a 20 degree wrap sunglass, will I get 20 degrees of wrap compensation?

    Or, do I have to move up to the Superb to specify?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Ok, thanks for answering.

    Let me be explicit...If I'm ordering a Pure (which doesn't have a face-form option) for a 20 degree wrap sunglass, will I get 20 degrees of wrap compensation?

    Or, do I have to move up to the Superb to specify?
    You would have to use a Superb or Individual to specify PoW. You could also use one of the Sport options if the base curve is steep enough.

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