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Thread: I think Zeiss is now in a very good position for a change.

  1. #1
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I think Zeiss is now in a very good position for a change.

    OK, so now I'm hearing that VSP's effective ban on Essilor products is going to allow only Unity Via (formerly a Zeiss product from what I hear) and Hoya and Zeiss.

    So an OD that has sucked at the teat of, say, Shamir is going to find that he's going to get his reimbursements cut. That would be me.

    So I would like to learn more about Zeiss PALs, now.

    1. Does anyone have a professional link? Oops, found it: https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/us...ss-lenses.html
    2. I hear nothing but wows about Zeiss Individual on this site. Sold!
    3. What grinders and cost-cutters do Zeiss have?
    4. Does anyone talk about Zeiss coatings, anymore? They used to be killer good.
    Last edited by drk; 06-09-2020 at 08:30 AM.

  2. #2
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Hey, how good/bad is the Zeiss lab in KY?

  3. #3
    Rising Star
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    So an OD that has sucked at the teat of, say, Shamir
    Wait, Shamir has teats? How did I not notice this?!

  4. #4
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    Hi drk - the past few years i have been dealing exclusive with Zeiss. Please keep in mind that as i am in Australia some of the products we use here might be named differently or slightly different due to worldwide production


    1: https://curioz.zeiss.com/pages/exter...lient=fallback

    2: Indiv lens is brilliant, the Aspheric S/V lens is same. Office type lenses are very good, just need to know patient requirements before dispensing. Typically i find their Minus work is very good, Plus powers can be restrictive due to power ranges available. If doing stock s/v always add 2mm to what you think needed as blank size as they calculate MSU differently to any lab i have done with previously.

    3: They do, but i am just a worker bee and not involved with that so cannot help.

    4: DVP and DVP-Blu are really good. Can count ammount of lens crazing on 1 hand in past 3 years. HMC is well, HMC. Nothing new there. Locutec i personally don't like and will not dispense.


    Any more questions feel free to ask

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder lensgrinder's Avatar
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    I work for ZEiSS in the technical education capacity and I will be happy to discuss the differences with you.
    I sent you a PM with my contact information.

    The ZEISS SmartLife Portfolio includes 4 progressives, Individual, Superb, Plus and Pure. All are compensated with default PoW.
    Individual, Superb and Plus are variable corridor and the Pure has 3 corridor options. Superb and Individual have customizable PoW.
    Individual has three versions, Balanced, Intermediate and Near.
    Within the SmartLife portfolio you have an anti fatigue lens named Digital Lens where the add range is 0.50-1.25 and two free form SV options(one has customizable PoW and the other has standard PoW).
    The ZEISS Light Portfolio includes 3 progressives, Light V, Light D and Light H. Light V is a variable corridor and D and H are both fixed. None of these lenses have customizable PoW, but like all ZEISS lenses they are free form.
    The EnergizeMe Portfolio has one fixed corridor progressive and two anti-fatigue lenses.

    Our PhotoFusion is our self-tinting, photochromic or whatever you want to call it. The available colors are grey, brown, extra-grey, blue and green.
    We offer three AR coatings and one blue coating:
    DuraVision Platinum UV
    DuraVision Silver UV
    DuraVision Chrome UV
    DuraVision BlueProtect UV
    (blue coating)

    We have a full suite of mirror coatings and flash mirror coatings.

    Clearly you would not want to offer all of these lenses.

  6. #6
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Thanks, LG!

    First of all a conceptual big-picture question.

    I'm guessing "smart life" means
    a. it's organized for life stages
    b. "smart" means lots of variables are available?


    And
    "Light" portfolio is a economy package?


    "Energize me" portfolio is basic antifatigue customers?

  7. #7
    OptiWizard
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    I always thought Unity progressives were IOT. Also I think you will probably be ok working with Shamir, you can currently put VSP Sunsync photochromics on Shamir designs. Who know though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    OK, so now I'm hearing that VSP's effective ban on Essilor products is going to allow only Unity Via (formerly a Zeiss product from what I hear) and Hoya and Zeiss.

    So an OD that has sucked at the teat of, say, Shamir is going to find that he's going to get his reimbursements cut. That would be me.
    Hey doc, can you cite a source for this? I've been worried about cuts to reimbursements on Essilor/Shamir products ever since the big merger took place. I've done some cursory searching here and on the google, but come up fruitless. As much as the next guy, I'd like to try to stay ahead of the curve when VSP decides to cut payments to ECPs

  9. #9
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    It's on the VSP website. They don't like when you post top secret for VSP eyes only stuff. But it's solid info.

  10. #10
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grudyfan13 View Post
    Wait, Shamir has teats? How did I not notice this?!
    I squirted the milk out of my nose when I read that.

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder lensgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Thanks, LG!

    First of all a conceptual big-picture question.

    I'm guessing "smart life" means
    a. it's organized for life stages
    b. "smart" means lots of variables are available?


    And
    "Light" portfolio is a economy package?


    "Energize me" portfolio is basic antifatigue customers?

    ZEISS SmartLife encompasses the way we use SV, anti-fatigue and progressives lenses today.
    For example free form single vision lenses are only compensated for distant objects(>= 6m), neglecting the fact that a single vision wearer views a digital device looking 20 degrees down and holding the device at 30 cm. Much the same way oblique astigmatism occurs as we look laterally at a distant object it also occurs when we view near objects. This does not mean the lens has a boost of power, but rather a compensation at near for oblique astigmatism.
    As you know lenses having variable distributions of add power have peripheral power errors. These astigmatic and mean power errors do not correlate to each viewing distance or gaze angle of the wearer which causes blur in the periphery. The SmartLife Progressives and Digital(anti-fatigue) lenses are a change in designs which reduces overall blur levels.
    The portfolio also optimizes all designs utilizing pupil size based on the calculated age of the wearer. Traditionally we would use ray tracing to evaluate the errors in lenses, by using the pupil size this ensures better evaluation of local dioptric power errors which ensures better optimization of the global lens surface.
    We utilized pupil optimization in the Individual 2 and our DriveSafe lenses for a few years, we have now brought it a whole portfolio.
    We have been considering the digital lifestyle since 2016 when we introduced a progressive enhancement to all ZEISS progressives to consider that progressive wearers viewed digital devices differently than printed material. We updated the power profile to account for this change.
    ZEISS Light is a newer free form portfolio, so it is not based off of older designs. It has the same foundation as all ZEISS lenses(Center of Rotation optimization, near variable inset, optimized power profile, etc.). Because it does not come with some of the enhancements of the SmartLife portfolio if falls in the lower tier insurance categories.
    EnergizeMe is marketed as a lens solution when CL wearers remove their contacts. It has two anti-fatigue options along with a fixed corridor progressive option. The progressive is a wonderful solution for hyperopes with higher add powers(>1.75D) who will not consider an office lens solution. The lens is a true soft design which favors hyperopes.

  12. #12
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    I squirted the milk out of my nose when I read that.
    I do what I can :D

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bretk0923 View Post
    Hey doc, can you cite a source for this? I've been worried about cuts to reimbursements on Essilor/Shamir products ever since the big merger took place. I've done some cursory searching here and on the google, but come up fruitless. As much as the next guy, I'd like to try to stay ahead of the curve when VSP decides to cut payments to ECPs
    It's publicly available info on their blog, no logins or proprietary info. https://www.vspproviderhub.com/news/...m_campaign=6_1

  14. #14
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    wait so we have to sell anti bacterial AR now? Am I reading that right?

  15. #15
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Parse-o-rama: (please join)

    ZEISS SmartLife
    For example free form single vision lenses are only compensated for distant objects(>= 6m), neglecting the fact that a single vision wearer views a digital device looking 20 degrees down and holding the device at 30 cm. Much the same way oblique astigmatism occurs as we look laterally at a distant object it also occurs when we view near objects. This does not mean the lens has a boost of power, but rather a compensation at near for oblique astigmatism.
    I think this is just a repackaged built-in benefit of FFSV vs. traditionally surfaced; whereas before we may have extolled the virtues of "peripheral vision" of the sides of the lenses, this statement seem to extol the virtues of the bottom of the lenses. Which is fine. Just another culturally-relevant selling point.

    As you know lenses having variable distributions of add power have peripheral power errors. These astigmatic and mean power errors do not correlate to each viewing distance or gaze angle of the wearer which causes blur in the periphery. The SmartLife Progressives and Digital(anti-fatigue) lenses are a change in designs which reduces overall blur levels.
    Mansplain: yep, we have blur in PALs, and we put it somewhere. But we have less unwanted blur to manage than most.




    The portfolio also optimizes all designs utilizing pupil size based on the calculated age of the wearer. Traditionally we would use ray tracing to evaluate the errors in lenses, by using the pupil size this ensures better evaluation of local dioptric power errors which ensures better optimization of the global lens surface. We utilized pupil optimization in the Individual 2 and our DriveSafe lenses for a few years, we have now brought it a whole portfolio.
    Wider zones are better. Smaller pupils are less fussy about zone widths (for a variety of reasons). So with big pupil situations (relative youth, low illumination) we maximize the zone widths (by hardening the lens design) (?).


    We have been considering the digital lifestyle
    "Digital lifestyle" = life with digital devices

    since 2016 when we introduced a progressive enhancement to all ZEISS progressives to consider that progressive wearers viewed digital devices differently than printed material.
    People tend to hold those teeny screens closer than, say, a big ol' book. Plus it's a one-handed task, so it's ergonomically novel. It's closer and not as low in the field of view as your lap or the top of your desk.

    We updated the power profile to account for this change.
    I'm guessing this means that the near zone has been modified to 1. be "higher" in the lens 2. have a less gradual, more "usable" corridor? Conjecture.
    Last edited by drk; 07-31-2020 at 04:25 PM.

  16. #16
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    ZEISS Light is a newer free form portfolio, so it is not based off of older designs. It has the same foundation as all ZEISS lenses(Center of Rotation optimization, near variable inset, optimized power profile, etc.). Because it does not come with some of the enhancements of the SmartLife portfolio if falls in the lower tier insurance categories.
    What do we give up with Zeiss Light, compared to SmartLife? Obviously customization for POW. But what other features?

    What is the design goal for this lens? Balance?

    Thanks Big B!

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    Master OptiBoarder lensgrinder's Avatar
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    Parse-o-rama: (please join)


    I think this is just a repackaged built-in benefit of FFSV vs. traditionally surfaced; whereas before we may have extolled the virtues of "peripheral vision" of the sides of the lenses, this statement seem to extol the virtues of the bottom of the lenses. Which is fine. Just another culturally-relevant selling point.

    FFSV in the past was not evaluated using a near object model. We know that a traditional lens will encounter aberrations as the eye rotates in the periphery while focused on a distant object (one criteria of a FFSV is to reduce overall aberrations in the periphery), however, when we introduce an object at 30 cm these aberrations will also occur, however, they will be different. We are using different criteria as light from the object at 30 cm is diverging from it source, where the rays from the distance object are parallel, which requires different ray tracing calculations.
    If we evaluate a tangential and sagittal plot for a +5.00 D in 1.5 placed on a 9.00 D BC for a distance object with 30 degrees of rotation in the periphery we see the oblique astigmatic error is +0.08 D, but if we use the same lens changing the criteria to a 30 cm object at 20 degrees eye rotation the error increases to +0.19 D.


    Wider zones are better. Smaller pupils are less fussy about zone widths (for a variety of reasons). So with big pupil situations (relative youth, low illumination) we maximize the zone widths (by hardening the lens design) (?).

    Hardening the design would reduce the widths, but increase distance in the periphery.
    Our designs will change based on whether the wearer is a hyperope of a myope due to the viewing nature of each.
    A lens that is evaluated for position of wear improves the overall blur around the corridor thereby improving the "widths" of the progressive lens. Using pupil size helps to evaluate the global surface of a progressive and aberrations along the corridor.
    Using the pupil size based on average luminance(as opposed to a single ray) helps to smooth the lateral portions locally thereby reducing overall blur levels for the whole surface while increasing the smoothness.






    People tend to hold those teeny screens closer than, say, a big ol' book. Plus it's a one-handed task, so it's ergonomically novel. It's closer and not as low in the field of view as your lap or the top of your desk.




    I'm guessing this means that the near zone has been modified to 1. be "higher" in the lens 2. have a less gradual, more "usable" corridor? Conjecture.

    Correct, the near zone is modified as to increase the add power at a certain point along the corridor to account for the 35 cm reading distance.
    Since a person reading closer will look in more the zones need to be shifted as well, this is to ensure the wearer is not looking through too much blur.


    What do we give up with Zeiss Light, compared to SmartLife? Obviously customization for POW. But what other features?


    What is the design goal for this lens? Balance?


    Thanks Big B!

    SmartLife Progressives reduce blur using different enhancements to smooth the overall surface, pupil size, object space model, etc.
    Individual has additional customization by offering three design types, one is to shorten the corridor to increase the rate of change, the other is to lengthen the corridor to keep intermediate wide.
    Each SmartLife progressive enhances the lens for digital devices(explained above)
    The corridor is adjusted based on where the pupils are located in the frame, this is based on frame shape, box dimensions, etc.


    These are great questions!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lensgrinder View Post
    The ZEISS Light Portfolio includes 3 progressives, Light V, Light D and Light H. Light V is a variable corridor and D and H are both fixed. None of these lenses have customizable PoW, but like all ZEISS lenses they are free form.
    Thats interesting, when I've ordered the Light Progressives in the past thru visionweb the POW box always appears like it does with the individual.

  19. #19
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    Zeiss needs a photofusion product that competes with Transitions Xtractive since they no longer offer transitions as an option with their progressives. The Xtractive is very popular with our patients as most of them want their glasses to darken while driving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Camblor View Post
    Zeiss needs a photofusion product that competes with Transitions Xtractive since they no longer offer transitions as an option with their progressives. The Xtractive is very popular with our patients as most of them want their glasses to darken while driving.
    Educate me. I thought Driveware darkens when driving. I thought xtra actve started off with a 20 to 30% tint and didn't change appreciably when driving?

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    Educate me. I thought Driveware darkens when driving. I thought xtra actve started off with a 20 to 30% tint and didn't change appreciably when driving?
    Transitions XtrActive always has a slight tint, even indoors, but only ~5-10% and will darken to a 30-40% tint even behind a windshield.

    Drivewear is polarized and never clear - the color changes from an amber to brown depending on light conditions.

    Transitions Vantage is like XtraActive in that it always has a slight tint (again, ~10%) but polarizes as it darkens. Limited availability and high prices (not to mention inability to work well behind a windshield) make Vantage a bit harder to find.

  22. #22
    Master OptiBoarder lensgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Camblor View Post
    Zeiss needs a photofusion product that competes with Transitions Xtractive since they no longer offer transitions as an option with their progressives. The Xtractive is very popular with our patients as most of them want their glasses to darken while driving.
    ZEISS has a PhotoFusion Extra Grey, along with Blue, Green, Grey and Brown.
    To clarity we do not offer Transitions on product that we offer a PhotoFusion product. For example we do not a Vantage type product so it is available in the portfolio.

  23. #23
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    So, big B:

    Are you saying that:

    1. we used to optimize FFSV in such a way that was radially symmetric (tops, sides, bottoms); that is: what compensations that are needed off-axis was applied to EVERY meridian, equally, and we were using parallel light for the ray tracing or somesuch.

    2. and now we do that, but in the lower middle portion of the new Zeiss designs, since divergent light needs a separate type of compensation (vs. parallel), you have a non-radially symmetric off-axis compensation ability?

    I guess that shouldn't surprise me that you can do that. I guess I'm surprised that there is an optical need for that. And we're decidedly NOT just adding +0.37 DS or something as an accommodative aid, right?

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    1. we used to optimize FFSV in such a way that was radially symmetric (tops, sides, bottoms); that is: what compensations that are needed off-axis was applied to EVERY meridian, equally, and we were using parallel light for the ray tracing or somesuch.

    2. and now we do that, but in the lower middle portion of the new Zeiss designs, since divergent light needs a separate type of compensation (vs. parallel), you have a non-radially symmetric off-axis compensation ability?

    I guess that shouldn't surprise me that you can do that. I guess I'm surprised that there is an optical need for that. And we're decidedly NOT just adding +0.37 DS or something as an accommodative aid, right?
    1. The ZEISS FFSV was somewhat rotationally symmetrical, however, if you had cylinder then it was not.
    2. Yes, that is correct. As you start to focus at near this requires a different optimization. If you look at Tscherning's Ellipse for a distance object and compare the same power for a near object(30 cm) you will notice that you need two forms to be free from aberrations.

    0.37 D could be overkill. Consider a lens that has 0.18 D of astigmatic error when looking 20 degrees down, if you used the spherical equivalent it would equal 0.09 D. Ultimately we want to correct for the aberrations at near and distance.

  25. #25
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Geometric, Physical, and Visual Optics

    By Michael P. Keating

    I'll be darned, lensgrinder. I never heard of such a thing. With a little lucky searching and the snipping tool, I bring to Optiboard proof of your statement. Cool!

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