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Thread: Reading glasses without Rx

  1. #26
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Absolutely right, UF. It's wrong. Is everyone for sale?

    Is that boat worth it?

    Does money satisfy, past the bare essentials?

    Nope.

    Do ethics and goodwill satisfy? You bet.

    So if you make OTC readers for your office, you hate ethics and goodwill. You are the Gordon Gekko of opticianry.

  2. #27
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    So drk would you advocate modifying the ACA to allow an annual MD or OD eye exam covered by your insurance?
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 02-14-2020 at 11:03 AM. Reason: tweak...

  3. #28
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    my 2 cents; "prescription eye wear" (not otc readers) were prescribed at one time or another. Duplication is duplicating a prescription, therefore, duplicated eye wear are prescription lenses. Now then, we could argue that the prescription is expired, and therefore should not be duplicated. ( similar to my BP meds, I can't refill without a Dr's Rx.) But, there are few similarities between Rx drugs and Rx eye glasses. As Barry would say, what harm would we be protecting the public from in eliminating duplicated eye wear?

    Yes, you can argue that regular, routine eye exams benefit the public. But I also don't agree with a blanket "All Rx eye glass prescriptions expire in one year". Expiration's should be based on an individual, case by case analysis.

    Have I duplicated an eye glass prescription? You bet, just a couple of examples..

    Customer from out of town broke his glasses beyond repair. Prescribing doc was out of town and his office would not release his current Rx without the doc signing it...

    Pregnant lady broke glasses. Rx had "expired" (1 yr, 1 month) office wouldn't release . Didn't want to get exam because her doc's office said it may not stay accurate due to her pregnancy...

    I personally don't find anything unethical about these type of duplications.


    Sorry for the hi-jack of the thread.

  4. #29
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    Next drk will say that it is not ethical to buy ready-made clothes. Only tailored ones. It's not ethical to buy shoes yourself, you have to be seen by an orthopedist first. You can't eat, you have to see a nutritionist first.

    Just imagine if you have the wrong shoes, hit the gas by mistake and get into an accident....

    Just imagine if you are reading a book and mistake all Bs for Ps. Now instead of reading bricks, you read pricks. Holy moly.
    Last edited by vfpamp; 02-14-2020 at 11:10 AM.
    Vitor Pamplona
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  5. #30
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Deleted my response. I stayed up way too late, and misread the question myself, or got lost in the thread. My bad.
    Last edited by lensmanmd; 02-14-2020 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Beign stupid
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  6. #31
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I think the ACA is dead, but it did mandate coverage for kids' eye exams, IIRC.

    Health insurance covers symptomatic eye problems, and that's enough. Routine exams are not expensive. Eyeglasses are not expensive.

  7. #32
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpamp View Post
    Next drk will say that it is not ethical to buy ready-made clothes. Only tailored ones. It's not ethical to buy shoes yourself, you have to be seen by an orthopedist first. You can't eat, you have to see a nutritionist first.

    Just imagine if you have the wrong shoes, hit the gas by mistake and get into an accident....

    Just imagine if you are reading a book and mistake all Bs for Ps. Now instead of reading bricks, you read pricks. Holy moly.
    Yep, any and all things should be prescribed by doctors.



    I just had a fifth-grader who has convergence excess esophoria, and has dyslexia and has an individualized education program so he can be mainstreamed at school.

    His glasses Rx is approximately plano with a +1.25 add and BO prism.

    Are you going to duplicate that, when he breaks them? Because he broke his last pair, and is wearing an older pair, yet.


    Yes, there are people behind the lenses. You can't make a phone call?

    Some doofus goes out of town without a backup pair of glasses, and you make them on the spot with your emergency lab? Without a Rx. Is that the limit, though? Emergencies? Or, just whenever someone doesn't have a prescription and they don't want to bother calling the doctor?

    And if a Rx is written with an expiration date, are you the arbiter of social justice to make things better? If it's expired, it's expired. If it's improperly expired, the state board would be happy to make that call.

  8. #33
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Duplicating an OTC reader is senseless! Buy another OTC reader!!!!!

  9. #34
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Lets get back to the original question in this thread. Cust/Pt comes in with 2 OTC readers. One is +3 and the other is +1.50. Wants a +3 in one eye, +1.50 in the other. This would be a case of self prescribing at this point. Would you do it?
    If same cust/PT comes in with a broken OTC reader, wants the OTC lenses duplicated - both +3 or both +1.50. Would you do it?
    The original poster was not asking about duplicating a current OTC reader. The question paraphrased was, would you customize by splitting the RX based on what the cust/pt wants without a RX?
    No, monovision on the spectacle plane doesn't work.

    There's a reason OTC readers are called cheaters, and it's not because ophthalmic professionals are being cheated.

    Glaucoma is often referred to as the “sneak thief of sight” – because it rarely presents symptoms; it can take away as much as 40% of a person’s vision without them noticing, and once this vision has gone, it cannot be restored.
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-warning-signs

    Best regards,

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    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  10. #35
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpamp View Post
    51.2 million pairs of OTC readers WITHOUT prescriptions are sold EVERY year in the US alone and we don't see any public health problem rising.

    I think consumers got this, drk. Relax.
    Well, then, I guess EyeNetra would be against selling their cheap little autorefractors to kiosks, then, that order DIY eyewear online on the spot?

    The consumers got that, too?

  11. #36
    Master OptiBoarder CCGREEN's Avatar
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    Using a written Rx to make a pair of eyeglasses is absolutely useless if one does not use care to make it accurately according to the written Rx. So a written Rx does not necessarily insure accuracy of lenses.

    After asking a person if the glasses they have been using has worked well for them and they say yes, I have absolute full confidence in my ability to provide them with a EXACT duplication of what they have been wearing including Rx, base curve, lens material, and coatings and the pt will do just fine with them.

    I sleep very well knowing that I have done my best and know that pt is now going to be able to drive home from vacation after destroying their eyeglasses. I have taken care of the needs of the patient and at the same time made a few dollars. There is more to caring for your patient then worrying if you made glasses from a written Rx or duplicating lenses the patient has been wearing. The patient really does not care how your get the Rx all they know is they cant see and if you do not use your abilities to care for them they for sure are going to let the world know about it. Word spreads quickly via social media and yelp.

  12. #37
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I think the ACA is dead, but it did mandate coverage for kids' eye exams, IIRC.

    Health insurance covers symptomatic eye problems, and that's enough. Routine exams are not expensive. Eyeglasses are not expensive.
    Gordon Gekko: It's all about bucks, kid. The rest is conversation.

  13. #38
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    No, monovision on the spectacle plane doesn't work.

    There's a reason OTC readers are called cheaters, and it's not because ophthalmic professionals are being cheated.



    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-warning-signs

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Guess I was too slow....Robert quoted my post before I could edit it....
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  14. #39
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    Wow, what a crazy thread. Who knew so many of us were willing to die on the hill of OTC readers?!?

    I think everyone here can probably use their best judgment on a case by case basis for what is best for the patient. Isn't that what we should be doing with every person that walks through our door anyway?

    FWIW Drk. the state law where I am says "duplication of broken lenses" doesn't mention duplicating the prescription. It also goes on to say "also do not apply to the sale of spectacles, used for reading and containing only simple lenses having a plus power of up to and including 3.25, if no attempt is made to test the eyes." So it sounds like I can make and sell whatever kind of readers I want for people as long as they are only spherical powers. Not that I would. How they decided on only spherical and up to 3.25 is beyond me. I'm guessing a state legislators mother wanted a 3.25 reader and couldn't get one.

    Duplicating reading glasses is pretty far down the list of things we should care about when discussing the well being of the public in this industry.

  15. #40
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    This is awesome...THE REBIRTH OF OPTIBOARD! We haven't had any mud slingin' here for quite some time!

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Well, then, I guess EyeNetra would be against selling their cheap little autorefractors to kiosks, then, that order DIY eyewear online on the spot?
    Device manufacturers don't control how customers use the equipment. We have our guidelines and our intended use. We love when they provide a good service and don't sell crap glasses. But after they buy it, it's up to them to comply with local laws and up to the boards to oversee them. We can't go back and take the device from them. That's ridiculous.

    Also, you can do a kiosk with a Zeiss iProfiler or a Topcon AR. You don't need our tech. In fact, most of the automated Kiosks in the US today are using traditional devices. In many cases, more comprehensive devices than the usual ones found in OD offices.

    Ours are used for mobile services. Not really stationary lanes, like on kiosks.

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    The consumers got that, too?
    Oh boy, I don't think you know this company: http://eyeque.com

    That's the v1 of our autorefractor (they licensed my design from MIT), selling direct to patients for $35 retail.

    EyeQue is founded by Tibor, the same founder of Zenni Optical, which does about 5 million cheap glasses / yr in the US alone.

    They have been out for 3 years now.

    I will let you connect the dots.
    Last edited by vfpamp; 02-14-2020 at 12:50 PM.
    Vitor Pamplona
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    Come check our autorefractor, lensometer and phoropter.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    Using a written Rx to make a pair of eyeglasses is absolutely useless if one does not use care to make it accurately according to the written Rx. So a written Rx does not necessarily insure accuracy of lenses.

    After asking a person if the glasses they have been using has worked well for them and they say yes, I have absolute full confidence in my ability to provide them with a EXACT duplication of what they have been wearing including Rx, base curve, lens material, and coatings and the pt will do just fine with them.

    I sleep very well knowing that I have done my best and know that pt is now going to be able to drive home from vacation after destroying their eyeglasses. I have taken care of the needs of the patient and at the same time made a few dollars. There is more to caring for your patient then worrying if you made glasses from a written Rx or duplicating lenses the patient has been wearing. The patient really does not care how your get the Rx all they know is they cant see and if you do not use your abilities to care for them they for sure are going to let the world know about it. Word spreads quickly via social media and yelp.
    The first part of what you say is very true, one must make sure to provide an accurate set of lenses and I also agree that emergencies can happen such as your example. However, simply asking a customer if they can see well out of their current glasses is not a good indication that the glasses that they're wearing is the best set of lenses for their vision. You don't know how old they are, and how many times have you had new customers come in saying they see completely fine without glasses and when you fit them with their first pair and they become ecstatic with how clearly they can see? I bet its a lot. The same holds true for people who have worn glasses for a long time without a change.

    We have an ethical and moral responsibility to make sure that the people who come to us have had a recent exam to not only make sure they have an updated prescription but that the health of their eye is in good shape. Some customers may not care where the RX comes from but they will care if their eye develops issues, or diabetes, etc and they learn something could have been done about it.

    I do have one question for you regarding finding what the lens material is. Is there a way to find out what a lens material is aside from visually (comparing script to thickness, a guestimation) or dropping the lens to hear what sound it makes?

  18. #43
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CME4SPECS View Post
    This is awesome...THE REBIRTH OF OPTIBOARD! We haven't had any mud slingin' here for quite some time!
    Yup, I haven't seen this level of mud slinging since Chris passed. I miss Chris.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  19. #44
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pneese View Post

    I do have one question for you regarding finding what the lens material is. Is there a way to find out what a lens material is aside from visually (comparing script to thickness, a guestimation) or dropping the lens to hear what sound it makes?
    If you have a lensometer and a lens clock...

    Lens index approximation formula;

    N = .53 X (TP/CP) + 1

    N = index of refraction
    TP = True Power
    CP = Clock Power

  20. #45
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Yup, I haven't seen this level of mud slinging since Chris passed. I miss Chris.
    That's right- Me and drk are like oil and water;)

    I miss Chris too:(

  21. #46
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    That's right- Me and drk are like oil and water;)

    I miss Chris too:(
    Too bad it’s not oil and vinegar. A good mix when blended correctly. Just sayin.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Too bad it’s not oil and vinegar. A good mix when blended correctly. Just sayin.
    I was going to say: "I am overcome with emulsion"
    Vitor Pamplona
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