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  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    POF/COF question/poll

    So, I operate a lab, if you haven't noticed by now...

    For you dispensing opticians, I have some questions/concerns.

    When dealing with POF/COFs, what is your workflow? Do you evaluate the condition of the frame? Do you check to see if it is a knock-off, OTC, Department store crap, etc? Is it Ophthalmic quality? Would you reject a POF/COF if it does not meet quality standards? If so, what verbage would you use? Do you clean the frame of face cheese before sending it in, or do you expect your lab to do this @ no charge? Do you replace worn nose pads before sending the frame, or do you expect your lab to provide the service? Again, @ no charge.

    When sending in an order for a Z87-2 or Sport goggles (ASTM), would you expect us to use any material other than Poly or Trivex? Then tell us its OK to use 167 since the customer only wants it for sunglasses? I'm asking this since an LDO just said this to me. It was a Z87-2 frame, BTW.

    It's a crazy world here in the OPH business....

    TIA
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  2. #2
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    1. Yes, we look at the frame for suitability, and get at minimum a verbal "hold harmless" consent, and occasionally we make them sign a form.

    2. As to junk, heck no I don't expect the lab to clean it up. That's a separate service we can charge for. (For example, we can incorporate that into a "POF" fee.)

    3. I'm under the impression that I DO NOT HAVE AN OPTION of material other than poly or trivex in a Z87 frame.

  3. #3
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    I never leave it up to the lab to decide anything for me nor do I assume proper handling of old frames. I will evaluate a POF before closing the sale and give them all the warnings and tell them it's at their own risk if they want to proceed. I typically clean glasses before delivery including small part replacements so it will go to the lab in its gunky condition but do not expect it back cleaned. With that said, that is just how I operate as an individual. I've helped out a variety of dispensaries and have noticed that many places will force staff at reception to dispense so they have absolutely zero clue what is going on. And then there's optometrists (sorry if I offended any here but you know it's true) who don't have time to dispense properly and drop the entire weight on the lab to provide all the services. Match Height, identify progressive, fix screw, replace temple, restring nylon, adjust the frame etc.

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    Pretty sure the OP's post is rhetorical, but if not-

    Yes, I look over frames, but tell patients that we will basically use any frame they think will hold up, but if it breaks it is on them. Our POF breakage rate is less than 5 per year though, so we usually go above and beyond and give someone a nice discount on a replacement frame. I have refused reader frames and other junk on occasion. If the nosepads are bad I change them before sending the frame to the lab. I expect the lab to clean the eyewires when they mount the lenses, this should be standard procedure with any used frame and only takes seconds. Z87=poly/trivex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboytelemark View Post
    Pretty sure the OP's post is rhetorical, but if not-

    Yes, I look over frames, but tell patients that we will basically use any frame they think will hold up, but if it breaks it is on them. Our POF breakage rate is less than 5 per year though, so we usually go above and beyond and give someone a nice discount on a replacement frame. I have refused reader frames and other junk on occasion. If the nosepads are bad I change them before sending the frame to the lab. I expect the lab to clean the eyewires when they mount the lenses, this should be standard procedure with any used frame and only takes seconds. Z87=poly/trivex.
    If it only takes seconds clean them yourself. The labs supply services related to lenses, not a cleaning and repair frame service. Lensman. If I were in your shoes, and I was for over 35 years I would do it once and then send a polite note back with the job saying either"while we greatly appreciate their business we won't do it again or there will be an additional fee".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gilman View Post
    If it only takes seconds clean them yourself.
    Why would I remove the lenses, clean eyewire and lens edges, and reassemble, when the lab is going to be disassembling the frame anyway? CLEANING only takes a few seconds. If my lab is too lazy to do this, I would find another lab. Immediately.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gilman View Post
    If it only takes seconds clean them yourself. The labs supply services related to lenses, not a cleaning and repair frame service. Lensman. If I were in your shoes, and I was for over 35 years I would do it once and then send a polite note back with the job saying either"while we greatly appreciate their business we won't do it again or there will be an additional fee".
    Don
    We are a full service closed lab. No VSP, EyeMed, no outside contracts, etc. We service our clinics, which means that I can exert some control. Emphasis on some control. I see close to 350 orders per day and reject around 2 POFs/day. I generally see about 7/day on my desk for approval. Yes, it is a small amount, but the amount of time that it takes to review, reshape, fix, clean, and send emails as to why I am rejecting these frames takes time away from managing the business. Bear in mind that my staff will have rejected obvious poor quality POFs prior to them landing on my desk. Not to mention daily complaints from my staff that I need to address.

    Half of our clinics are are manned by LDOs. This is why I was asking. Am I wrong to expect more
    from LDOs?
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  8. #8
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    So, I operate a lab, if you haven't noticed by now...

    For you dispensing opticians, I have some questions/concerns.

    When dealing with POF/COFs, what is your workflow? Do you evaluate the condition of the frame? Do you check to see if it is a knock-off, OTC, Department store crap, etc? Is it Ophthalmic quality? Would you reject a POF/COF if it does not meet quality standards? If so, what verbage would you use? Do you clean the frame of face cheese before sending it in, or do you expect your lab to do this @ no charge? Do you replace worn nose pads before sending the frame, or do you expect your lab to provide the service? Again, @ no charge.

    When sending in an order for a Z87-2 or Sport goggles (ASTM), would you expect us to use any material other than Poly or Trivex? Then tell us its OK to use 167 since the customer only wants it for sunglasses? I'm asking this since an LDO just said this to me. It was a Z87-2 frame, BTW.

    It's a crazy world here in the OPH business....

    TIA
    Debbie Downer here- Do you take managed care? I used to do this before wholesale labs got into bed with managed care and it made sense to do my own lab work and keep the profits here. Add the charge and I'll bet you loose many accounts. Just say'n.

    Yes we do look at the condition and always tell them it's at their risk. If it's a new frame of course that's another story. I do not expect new nose pads and will as a rule take a quick soapy watered toothbrush to cheesy frames but will not disassemble.

    I would not blame you and I do deal with a lab that will not put anything but watermarked safety lenses in safety frames. That said I have another that will make exceptions so that's where those very rare jobs go.

    So bottom line when Eye Med and VSP allow an extra charge for this then I will expect it also for private paid orders.

    (We are all eating the proverbial poop sandwich so smile and ask for seconds!- Debbie)

    P.S. While I have drk's eyes please go to the HoF and give us a better clue as to what your last 2 links are about;)
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 05-02-2019 at 11:01 AM.

  9. #9
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    Would someone show me where Z87.2 says poly or trivex only? I don't believe that to be true.

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Now we've had discussions in the past over how rare an accident related to lens breakage is and why we have insurance for this possibility, but I think this is what prompts the question (last line):

    https://localaccident.sokolovelaw.com/general-liability/

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Now we've had discussions in the past over how rare an accident related to lens breakage is and why we have insurance for this possibility, but I think this is what prompts the question (last line):

    https://localaccident.sokolovelaw.com/general-liability/
    There is a difference between Z87 and Z87-2.
    Z87 is a basic impact resistance lens that requires that materials pass the 1” drop ball test. It can be made from any material @ 3.0mm minimum thickness, as long as it passes the drop ball test.
    Z87-2, which is the new norm, is a high impact safety. Minimum thickness is 2.0. Glass and CR39 struggles to pass the aforementioned drop ball testing at this thickness. 167 is not much better. Most labs will err on higher impact resistant materials due to the exact nature of litigation mentioned above. Poly and TVX, even with AR will pass this test.

    So comes the question. If the customer wants a WileyX Z87-2 frame for style, not for safety, what would you tell them?
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  12. #12
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    Thanks Lensmanmd,
    I tell them that due to the fact that the frame is Z87.2 that it requires a lens with the same standards.

  13. #13
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    People really send in nasty looking old frames? I do my own edging and every POF goes in to the ultrasonic before I put it on the tracer. I think I would have a fee for frames that are sent in that require cleaning prior to handling. I can just about bet that the LDO charged a POF fee.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CME4SPECS View Post
    People really send in nasty looking old frames? I do my own edging and every POF goes in to the ultrasonic before I put it on the tracer. I think I would have a fee for frames that are sent in that require cleaning prior to handling. I can just about bet that the LDO charged a POF fee.
    You would be amazed by the numbers of OOkleys, Roy Bans, Foster Grants, Flea Market Diors and Pradas, all injection molded and obvious knockoffs that we receive on a daily basis. Frames missing nose pads, face cheese all over the nose pads, dry-rotted acetates, reshaped and quite rolled, chipped up nylors that we need to hand cut patterns for, greened up monels, etc. A big SMH! We do what we can, including ultrasonic cleaning and replacing nose pads, without charge, but these are all time sucks.
    Since we service our clinics, I cannot charge fees for additional services. We only charge for COGs.
    My Customer Service staff pretty much don nitrile gloves before touching POFs now.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  15. #15
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    You would be amazed by the numbers of OOkleys, Roy Bans, Foster Grants, Flea Market Diors and Pradas, all injection molded and obvious knockoffs that we receive on a daily basis. Frames missing nose pads, face cheese all over the nose pads, dry-rotted acetates, reshaped and quite rolled, chipped up nylors that we need to hand cut patterns for, greened up monels, etc. A big SMH! We do what we can, including ultrasonic cleaning and replacing nose pads, without charge, but these are all time sucks.
    Since we service our clinics, I cannot charge fees for additional services. We only charge for COGs.
    My Customer Service staff pretty much don nitrile gloves before touching POFs now.
    I suggest you increase your other charges slightly and not create another fee.

    Have you reached out to accounts you have a close relationship with to see how their owner feel?

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I suggest you increase your other charges slightly and not create another fee.

    Have you reached out to accounts you have a close relationship with to see how their owner feel?
    Not an option. When I bring the matter up at our regional meetings, I am the bad guy, so I leave it alone. Close relationship? With some locations, yes.
    What do I know, I am just a lab guy? Never mind that I have over 35 years of experience on more than both sides of the glass.
    I bend light. That is what I do.

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    I forgot to add that when I do an POF order, most of the time I do it as lenses only and the lab doesn't get the frame. We do tracing and c-sizes.

  18. #18
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Sell them a new frame if it's so old and filthy that you have to fight over who's going to clean the damn thing.

    Walk away if your not sure if the frame was legally acquired or if counterfeit.

    Don't reuse a frame unless their spare pair is functional with adequate vision.

    Average frame life is three to five years when worn full-time with above average care. Reliability and appearance falls off rapidly thereafter.

    I've filed away the Z87 designation to allow the use of dress lenses. Is that wrong?

    Robert
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    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post

    I've filed away the Z87 designation to allow the use of dress lenses. Is that wrong?

    Robert
    In so many ways, yes. There can be a liability to the dispensing optician and the lab should these be worn in an environment requiring OSHA approved safety eyewear. Z87 minimum thickness is 3.0mm, with an engraving. Z87-2 minimum thickness is 2.0 with a engraving designated with a +. Yes, you can put a 3.0 thickness lens in a dress frame, but it cannot be engraved, and the patient will need to be told that it is not for industrial/safety use. You do not want to be sued......
    I bend light. That is what I do.

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    OptiBoard Professional Randle Tibbs, ABOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    Sell them a new frame if it's so old and filthy that you have to fight over who's going to clean the damn thing.

    Walk away if your not sure if the frame was legally acquired or if counterfeit.

    Don't reuse a frame unless their spare pair is functional with adequate vision.

    Average frame life is three to five years when worn full-time with above average care. Reliability and appearance falls off rapidly thereafter.

    I've filed away the Z87 designation to allow the use of dress lenses. Is that wrong?

    Robert
    Robert,
    Not sure if you are injecting sarcasm concerning filing away the Z87 designation. If not, and you are referring to safety frames, I do not believe safety frames can be altered in any fashion.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randle Tibbs, ABOM View Post
    Robert,
    Not sure if you are injecting sarcasm concerning filing away the Z87 designation. If not, and you are referring to safety frames, I do not believe safety frames can be altered in any fashion.
    "I do not believe safety frames can be altered in any fashion."
    Until you have written information from OSHA your belief does not hold water.
    This world is full of sheepoles who would rather follow what someone says just because its much more easy to do then look up the information for themselves. After all it is human nature to take the easy way out of most everything.

  22. #22
    OptiBoard Professional Randle Tibbs, ABOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    "I do not believe safety frames can be altered in any fashion."
    Until you have written information from OSHA your belief does not hold water.
    This world is full of sheepoles who would rather follow what someone says just because its much more easy to do then look up the information for themselves. After all it is human nature to take the easy way out of most everything.
    Very interesting, you are always quick to chime in but nothing to offer but sarcasm!

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder CCGREEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randle Tibbs, ABOM View Post
    Very interesting, you are always quick to chime in but nothing to offer but sarcasm!
    The fact still remains that you stated your "belief" without any facts and want it to be followed. Does not work that way with all of us.
    I have been looking for what you say about safety frames and have yet to find it in writing with OSHA. It is something that I have not thought of and if you know where we can find that please share. Yes we all know about the side shields but we are speaking of removing the Z87 stamp as Robert Martellaro stated.

  24. #24
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randle Tibbs, ABOM View Post
    Robert,
    Not sure if you are injecting sarcasm concerning filing away the Z87 designation. If not, and you are referring to safety frames, I do not believe safety frames can be altered in any fashion.
    Hi Randle,

    My middle-of-the-road libertarianism explains the hint of sarcasm, but I'm serious about the subject, that is, it's acceptable practice to remove the Z87 designation as long as dress only lenses are inserted. My basis for that statement comes from a second hand explanation from Daniel Torgersen when he was with Walman Optical, who was also chairman of the Z87 committee at the time.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
    Wauwatosa Wi.
    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    I deal with an occasional engineer who retires and wants to use the old frames.

    I really don't loose sleep over it. And besides- If you want to sue me you're going to have to go to the back of the line and wait your turn!!!

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