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Thread: SHAW Lens?

  1. #1
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    SHAW Lens?

    What can the members here tell me about the "SHAW Lens" and their experience with it?

    From my other thread on this patient I'm thinking of with regard to this lens:

    https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...ith-a-High-Cyl

    Patient is aniseikonic, absolute differential magnification between the eyes is ~4.8% (left eye magnifies, right eye minifies), but has declined any interest in handling the issue. He has tried to address this before and hated the outcome.

    He has tried correcting this before, but his issue with the correction stemmed from the one lens being substantially thicker than the other, which he found unacceptable.
    The contact + lens option was considered, but ultimately rejected, with no mention of why, but a visit to a neuro-ophthalmologist was noted, but no further information was present. I contacted this provider and had records sent over. Apparently he suffered a trigeminal nerve injury due to a severe accident when he was younger, and subsequently developed neurotrophic keratoconjunctivitis sicca OD. So there is a neurotrophic issue, but apparently it is not severe enough to be degenerative, but enough to prevent regular contact use.

    One of the responses to the original thread was from someone with a similar situation and he gave a very positive review of the SHAW lens.

    I must admit, I have absolutely no familiarity with the SHAW lens, I asked my co-workers and my boss about it, but none of them are familiar with it either. Can anyone here tell me how it is different from the typical solution of using an approach that causes a change in the thickness of the final lens? Are there are good technical papers that get into the details of the differences in the SHAW lens vs. a typical approach to this issue? Is it worth considering in a case like this?

    Any insight is appreciated.
    Last edited by Lelarep; 04-20-2019 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    If you Google "Shaw lens" you will come up with about 19,100,000 results in 0.37 seconds. In YouTube you will find a whole passel of videos.

    Far more information than you will ever need.

  3. #3
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    Sigh. There is one in every crowd...

    What you have suggested is obvious.

    Why do you think I specifically said "...and their experience with it?" Data is one thing, but experience and discussion is another. I am obviously interested in the professional subjective relative to a case of single vision distance use. Isn't that why this forum exists? For us to discuss things regarding our relative experience concerning various topics? I mean, if this is the standard response to most things, then this forum shouldn't even exist. Surely there is data for all things that could be asked at this point. For instances where there is no data, we'd likely only be discussing exceptionally rare extreme edge cases. If that was the point of this forum, I wasn't aware.

    I apologize if I come off as slightly annoyed, but these kinds of responses are a pet peeve of mine.

  4. #4
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    What can the members here tell me about the "SHAW Lens" and their experience with it?

    From my other thread on this patient I'm thinking of with regard to this lens:

    https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...ith-a-High-Cyl
    https://www.optiboard.com/forums/sho...a-Digital-lens

    The links are good. The second one has Peter Shaw discussing his lens design with Darryl Meister.

    I have no experience dispensing this lens.

    Hope this helps,

    Robert Martellaro
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
    Wauwatosa Wi.
    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

  5. #5
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    It works.
    It’s not presented enough as an option.
    There are obstacles and caveats.
    Peter Shaw is your best source and guide. Work with him. Learn his methods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    He has tried correcting this before, but his issue with the correction stemmed from the one lens being substantially thicker than the other, which he found unacceptable.
    He is going to hate the Shaw lens as well. Abnormal thickness and base curves are used to balance the image differential (in a nutshell) Aesthetically the glasses look horrible but it provides vision.

  7. #7
    looking up the answers smallworld's Avatar
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    I am also curious to hear what personal and professional experiences members of Optiboard have had with the Shaw lens.
    What is reality but a concept unique to each of us? Can anything be classed as real when our perceptions differ greatly on so many things? Just because we see something a particular way does not make it so.

  8. #8
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I've used it, and it's really good.

    It's really expensive.

    Having said that, I'm dubious it's a good option in that particular case due to patient factor.

  9. #9
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    (1.) I’ve used it many times. It’s good.

    ( 2.) Is it expensive ? I never thought so. In any event only your customer should decide what’s expensive to him/her and only your customer should decide the value of their vision. Your job is to present options for maximum achievable vision, your job is not to decide what the customer can afford.

    (3.) The obstacles and caveats I mentioned before, are patient motivation to re adapt. A person who suppresses vision in one eye subconsciously, will take much longer to adapt

  10. #10
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    Very interesting. I have a funny feeling that this patients 30+ year history of "minor" headaches, which he is quoted in his record as saying "Are no big deal, they only happen once or twice a week. Nothing to do with my eyes." indeed have a lot to do with his eyes. But, given his problem with aesthetics of the lenses when correction was attempted previously, this seems like it wouldn't be a good option. Sigh. I hate cases like this. This guy could see much better, and likely solve his headache issue, but his vanity gets in the way.

    Makes me want to say "Whatever" and grab a glass of wine.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    Very interesting. I have a funny feeling that this patients 30+ year history of "minor" headaches, which he is quoted in his record as saying "Are no big deal, they only happen once or twice a week. Nothing to do with my eyes." indeed have a lot to do with his eyes. But, given his problem with aesthetics of the lenses when correction was attempted previously, this seems like it wouldn't be a good option. Sigh. I hate cases like this. This guy could see much better, and likely solve his headache issue, but his vanity gets in the way.

    Makes me want to say "Whatever" and grab a glass of wine.
    look pretty or see well? pick one. money can't defy physics or fix stupid. you will need to drill that into this guy's head

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    Makes me want to say "Whatever" and grab a glass of wine.
    Beer or Single malt in my case. It's a day to day struggle.....cosmetics over VA. SIGH
    I bend light. That is what I do.

  13. #13
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    It may not work in this case, but there will be many cases where the Shaw Lens will benefit your patient. The question is:

    “Will you set scepticism aside to learn what Shaw has to offer and teach or will you let sceptics who haven’t heard or tried it sway you negatively ?”

    There is more to learning here than just placing the order. I urge opticians and their prescribers to learn the Shaw lens together with each other and learn it from Shaw.

  14. #14
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post

    ( 2.) Is it expensive ? I never thought so. In any event only your customer should decide what’s expensive to him/her and only your customer should decide the value of their vision. Your job is to present options for maximum achievable vision, your job is not to decide what the customer can afford.
    Let's argue.
    1. It is expensive. It's easily double the cost of other digital PALs.
    2. I don't have customers. You may.
    3. As such, I make the decisions. And they expect me to. And I am very qualified to.
    4. And yes, cost of treatment is ALWAYS, ALWAYS part of the treatment plan.

    You're just applying your model to my model. I practice optometry, you practice opticianry. And not to be nasty or anything, but your (3.) above shows that you should consider a dose of humility. You don't know what you think you know.

    But I like your spunkiness! Cheers.

  15. #15
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    I read it all and understood......umm...first I need to get the fan to blow the smoke from my room then empty the spittle cup as this leaves me feeling like a blathering idiot.

    http://journals.lww.com/optvissci/Fu...ies__a.13.aspx

    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...free-form-PALs


    So be sure to read the first link first then deep dive into the second.

    A Challenge: Confess now to Father Fester at what post number you gave up!!!

    Aniseikonia is an ocular condition where there is a significant difference in the perceived size of images. It can occur as an overall difference between the two eyes, or as a difference in a particular meridian.
    Aniseikonia - Wikipedia



    Click this to see a picture
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 04-23-2019 at 10:08 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    It may not work in this case, but there will be many cases where the Shaw Lens will benefit your patient. The question is:

    “Will you set scepticism aside to learn what Shaw has to offer and teach or will you let sceptics who haven’t heard or tried it sway you negatively ?”

    There is more to learning here than just placing the order. I urge opticians and their prescribers to learn the Shaw lens together with each other and learn it from Shaw.
    I absolutely intend to learn it. Nothing I like more than a challenge. Unless it involves Deep Math (you know, that scary kind of math where you don't even have any idea what the symbols are in the equation you are looking at)

    Like this:

    Last edited by Lelarep; 04-23-2019 at 06:23 PM.

  17. #17
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    I have recently been fit in the SHAW progressive for Amblyopia, and have never seen so well or had my right eye feel so relaxed. I have not been seeing well WITHOUT because it feels as if my OS isn't trying to over-compensate. I was nervous about wearing my XFIT after wearing it, but I haven't had any issues. It did take about 2 days to fully adapt, but after that...WOW. Anyhow, that's my 2 cents!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Let's argue.
    1. It is expensive. It's easily double the cost of other digital PALs.
    2. I don't have customers. You may.
    3. As such, I make the decisions. And they expect me to. And I am very qualified to.
    4. And yes, cost of treatment is ALWAYS, ALWAYS part of the treatment plan.

    You're just applying your model to my model. I practice optometry, you practice opticianry. And not to be nasty or anything, but your (3.) above shows that you should consider a dose of humility. You don't know what you think you know.

    But I like your spunkiness! Cheers.
    Thank you Drk for the compliment.

    1. Are you comparing other digital pals with corrections like Shaw Lens or just regular digital pals ?
    2. Are you saying you have clients or patients but not customers?
    4. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying your patients are price sensitive and in accordance with your beliefs about price sensitivity, that affects the treatment plan ?

  19. #19
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Here is some background info on how to design iseokonic spectacle lenses straight from the horses mouth.

    file:///C:/Users/dick/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/CF2U208S/AOTechnicalReport1967DesignofIsekonicSpectacles.pdf

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    It may not work in this case, but there will be many cases where the Shaw Lens will benefit your patient. The question is:

    “Will you set scepticism aside to learn what Shaw has to offer and teach or will you let sceptics who haven’t heard or tried it sway you negatively ?”

    There is more to learning here than just placing the order. I urge opticians and their prescribers to learn the Shaw lens together with each other and learn it from Shaw.
    The authentic Shaw lens is only available to OD practices and is very pricey. There are very 'similar' versions wink wink available to optician practices priced much better and provides the same VA results.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Here is some background info on how to design iseokonic spectacle lenses straight from the horses mouth.

    file:///C:/Users/dick/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/CF2U208S/AOTechnicalReport1967DesignofIsekonicSpectacles.pdf
    You'll have to upload that document to the internet before you can share it. That is a local link on your computer.

  22. #22
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Without too much blather, the Shaw Lens is not about acuity.
    Yes, it's digital, but it's not about position of wear or field of view.

    It's about two things:
    1. Iseikonic design for severe anisometropes (and presumably rare others like retinal stretching, etc.) who have resultant aniseikonia (unequal image size)
    2. Prism imbalance off axis from unequal lens powers.

    How they achieve #1 is not unheard of...manipulate the shape factor via base curve and center thickness compensations. (See Dick post. Post, Dick, post.)


    How they achieve #2 is unheard of. pretty much.
    They want to know, first, how much binocular fusion ability a given patient has and the ability to maintain it (IIRC in different fields of gaze and certainly straight-ahead gaze) via vertical and horizontal eye muscle control.
    Then, they distribute prism throughout the lens, somehow, someway.

    It was claimed to me that Prentice's Rule on prism induction off-axis is "rough" and they have a more elegant/sophisticated way to do it.

  23. #23
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    Ah, so there is some "secret sauce", so to speak, in it then. Interesting.

  24. #24
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    You'll have to upload that document to the internet before you can share it. That is a local link on your computer.
    Sorry Oscar = lack of sleep on my part. Google this: "AOTechnicalReport1967DesignofIsekonicSpectacles.pdf" and it should take you there.

  25. #25
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    System For Ophthalmic Dispensing

    Go to page 514 (preview with missing pages).

    Math corrections!

    Remole Prism, Magnification, and Lens Form Analysis

    For VI at near, Prentice is good for low powers. For higher powers, it overstates differential induced prism for minus, and understates for plus.

    Shaw also uses dissimilar corridor lengths to minimize VI at near.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro




    Roberts Optical Ltd.
    Wauwatosa Wi.
    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

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