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Thread: Hoya is ruining my life...

  1. #1
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Hoya is ruining my life...

    I'm realllly getting tired of Hoya discontinuing all of Vision Ease's very fairly priced products to replace it with their own jacked-up products. I don't if anyone else has seen this yet, but I just received this:


    ALL ChangeRX plastics are to be replaced with Sensity product.
    Outlook, Novel, and Novella, in clear plastic are all discontinued.


    So between this and them discontinuing the only 1.74 Trans AR option on the market (from Seiko) I'm done. They can keep telling their accounts that by buying up VE and Seiko that they are keeping Big E from doing it and keeping those companies true all they want. Actions are louder than words, and this speaks volumes. Stop pretending you are better than Essilor when you are pulling all the same tricks.

    Rant done.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    I can't believe they discontinued the Novel and Novella, they were probably the best traditional progressives out right now - I don't work with a surfacing lab anymore but for a place like yours they must have been a godsend. Stupid.

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    Redhot Jumper ………………………….even in a world of vertical integration

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post

    They can keep telling their accounts that by buying up VE and Seiko that they are keeping Big E from doing it and keeping those companies true all they want. Actions are louder than words, and this speaks volumes. Stop pretending you are better than Essilor when you are pulling all the same tricks.

    Rant done.


    ………………………….even in a world of vertical integration were the commercial giants compete against each other, there is competition, at least for a while.

    They will buy up another company just to eliminate some products that are irritant to your own ones, or just to kill some good ideas, or to replace some of their products that have problems of any type.

    As the new owner they can do anything they want and that is good for them.

    In the OPTICAL BUSINESS they have also started to enlarge, by having sub companies buy up other businesses, just to hide fact for a while.

    The USA is the most important export market into the optical retail business, as it functions, as per local laws that can differ from State to State.

    At the end, their goal is, as a retailer you will be forced to purchase their products, so they will have control over your business.
    Chris Ryser
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    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I'm realllly getting tired of Hoya discontinuing all of Vision Ease's very fairly priced products to replace it with their own jacked-up products. I don't if anyone else has seen this yet, but I just received this:


    ALL ChangeRX plastics are to be replaced with Sensity product.
    Outlook, Novel, and Novella, in clear plastic are all discontinued.


    So between this and them discontinuing the only 1.74 Trans AR option on the market (from Seiko) I'm done. They can keep telling their accounts that by buying up VE and Seiko that they are keeping Big E from doing it and keeping those companies true all they want. Actions are louder than words, and this speaks volumes. Stop pretending you are better than Essilor when you are pulling all the same tricks.

    Rant done.
    Me scratches head and wonders why you are surprised? They are no better or different than any other.

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    I'm also irritated by the move. My gut instinct is that all non free form progressives will be gone within 5 years by the big 3. Either buy from them, an independent lab or upgrade your own tech to do it in house. I've always done my own so that is what I want to do and go with IOT or Novar or Crossbows as last resort (owned by big E)

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    I can't believe they discontinued the Novel and Novella, they were probably the best traditional progressives out right now - I don't work with a surfacing lab anymore but for a place like yours they must have been a godsend. Stupid.
    Considering the Novel/la Change RX is literally half the cost of any Transitions brand trans, yes, they will be dearly missed. *slow tear*
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    they will be dearly missed. *slow tear*..............................

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post

    Considering the Novel/la Change RX is literally half the cost of any Transitions brand trans, yes, they will be dearly missed. *slow tear*

    The world of optical retail is changing at a increased speed and you better start getting used to it, and adapt, because it is a non stoppable avalanche.
    Chris Ryser
    ________________________________________
    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    The world of optical retail is changing at a increased speed and you better start getting used to it, and adapt, because it is a non stoppable avalanche.
    Unfortunately, I do not have the 'authority' to adapt. Only to roll with the punches. So roll, I will.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    If I was you Quince, I would get a digital surface lab up and running and send your AR out to a lab that will cut a deal for coating your surfaced pucks.

    If I was your boss I'd say, "how much?" But if you are a business with a large portion of profit/rentention/new patients coming because of onsite surfacing capabilities that makes you valuable in a way that very little of your competition most likely is. Especially since you are in a rural / vacation type town. It would be foolish to throw that away.

    We must find ways to be valuable. For me getting surfaced lenses in 24 hours, 48-72 hours for AR is more than fast enough - but I didn't walk into a business that already had a functioning surface operation. Just our finish lab being able to cut and do any frame, even difficult POF jobs (usually while they wait) makes us way different than our competition.

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    For sure, Tallboy.

    We do the pricing game every couple of years, which means the owner has me get quotes and details on upgrading to digital. Each time he is surprised that it still costs what it does. Which I get... he has a self-sufficient business right now. He hired the right people so that he can golf most of the year. I say kudos to him, but a talk is coming up in regards to the direction of the lab. Retail is doing just fine- but my little surfacing haven is slower and older than ever and will continue to be unless he wants to invest. I've got some different paths laid out on paper for him so that we can go over all of our options.

    It's tough when you care about something that you cannot fix- but I respect his wishes. He built this company and will ultimately decide when it is to grow or be dismantled.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Redhot Jumper Having good people working with and for you..................

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post

    He hired the right people so that he can golf most of the year. I say kudos to him, but a talk is coming up in regards to the direction of the lab.


    It's tough when you care about something that you cannot fix- but I respect his wishes. He built this company and will ultimately decide when it is to grow or be dismantled.

    Having good people working with and for you...................that is the best way, to have a good going business and still enjoy life.

    However the business is still on his mind at all times, even when playing golf.

    I used to be the same, during the busy times taking off nearly a couple of months on my 45 ft cruiser but had one of the first 15 pound cell phones installed to access the office or be reachable, and the internet was still in its baby days, but one of the first computers got connected, and running on the boats generator.
    Chris Ryser
    ________________________________________
    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  12. #12
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Having good people working with and for you...................that is the best way, to have a good going business and still enjoy life.

    However the business is still on his mind at all times, even when playing golf.

    I used to be the same, during the busy times taking off nearly a couple of months on my 45 ft cruiser but had one of the first 15 pound cell phones installed to access the office or be reachable, and the internet was still in its baby days, but one of the first computers got connected, and running on the boats generator.

    This is evident. He is a good man and deserves to live the life he has set up for him and his family. He is older and has done his share of labor in the company and takes care of his employees. We may want for new and better machinery but it is not the downfall of this company. My lab is a money saver opposed to a money maker. This means less profit as it dies, but it would not collapse the company to lose the surfacing side.

    Fortunately I have many roles in the company, so though I prefer to be in the lab, my concerns are unbiased in that I want whatever path is best for the company as a whole. The cost to maintain the equipment will eventually outway the convenience of conventional surfacing. Capture rate due to speed is also dwindling with the continuing increase in AR sales. If the cost weren't enough, I simple don't have the room, or ability to expand, for in-house AR capabilities.

    My prediction is that my lab will stay running until a MAJOR cost comes up. I could get a month, a year, or a decade out of what I'm working with. I will do my best to get the latter.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    This is evident. He is a good man and deserves to live the life he has set up for him and his family. He is older and has done his share of labor in the company and takes care of his employees. We may want for new and better machinery but it is not the downfall of this company. My lab is a money saver opposed to a money maker. This means less profit as it dies, but it would not collapse the company to lose the surfacing side.

    Fortunately I have many roles in the company, so though I prefer to be in the lab, my concerns are unbiased in that I want whatever path is best for the company as a whole. The cost to maintain the equipment will eventually outway the convenience of conventional surfacing. Capture rate due to speed is also dwindling with the continuing increase in AR sales. If the cost weren't enough, I simple don't have the room, or ability to expand, for in-house AR capabilities.

    My prediction is that my lab will stay running until a MAJOR cost comes up. I could get a month, a year, or a decade out of what I'm working with. I will do my best to get the latter.
    I stock and sell a wide variety of semi finished lenses with a front side AR. We have sold thousands of pairs and it is very rare to have a complaint even from patients who have had two sided. If interested or want samples call me 800-543-7376 Don.

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    Quince- we seem to be living the same life, watching stuff come in from outside because they have free form that I could be doing better and cheaper. I have the options mapped out for my boss, just waiting see if/when my boss bites. I'm too damn old and stubborn to start over now. Let me make you money!!! Is my constant refrain.

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    There is SO much bad free form being made. And WAY more bad finishing, and well fitting, thats almost a joke.

    We wouldn't be on optiboard if we didn't want to do this, for a living or otherwise. We must decide our path - we are most certainly the ones that will be able to for ourselves.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    With good equipment and good support, free form is a no brainer, if, and only if your ROI is positive within 5 years. LMS support, click fees, turning tips, soft tool polisher(s), engraver, generator and other consumables will dig into your profits quickly. Calibrations every eight hours will cut into payroll hours and it is absolutely necessary to provide quality free form products.
    Then there are quarterly QA samples that need to verified and re-qualified. Time, lenses, shipping and other associated costs.
    This is why many smaller labs continue to outsource free form work. A modest sized lab will take 3 years to break even. 5 years to turn a profit.
    Something to think about.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    well fitting, thats almost a joke.
    I received an order today for a FF PAL @ 30mm SH. The B was 39. When I questioned the fit, and while telling them the DV will be severely compromised, I was told to just run it. The PX is already wearing a 31mm SH in a similar frame. SMH. Two wrongs don’t make a right!

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post

    There is SO much bad free form being made. And WAY more bad finishing, and well fitting, thats almost a joke.

    We wouldn't be on optiboard if we didn't want to do this, for a living or otherwise. We must decide our path - we are most certainly the ones that will be able to for ourselves.

    Lousy quality workmanship in the optical trade has been around forever, and on every continent. Specially in the eyeglass industry which has been known for higher profits and markups, than other commercial areas.

    The public has always been advised to have glasses made by qualified opticians to get the glasses properly done and perfectly adjusted. So the discounters never really flourished over the last few hundred years.

    However this might all change with the largest optical manufacturers trying to dominate the optical retail market.

    ...........and the Alibaba website now hitting the US market with advertising.


    Alibaba, Tencent debut on Fortune Global 500

    chinadaily.com.cn | Updated: 2017-07-21 15:50


    site at:
    https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search...yeglass+frames

    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    There is a very evident lack of quality control from outside labs. They are running more jobs and therefore have more staff- and NOBODY is staffed well enough that everybody is really as invested as we are. 'We' meaning the people questioning everything- as it should be. That is my biggest role: to question things. Just like lenmanmd was stating- I received a job with 3BU 3BO in both eyes and no one noticed a problem. I had the optician call the doctor who later confirmed that it was written incorrectly and OS was to be 3BD 3BO. Saving time and money by questioning is what the people who care, do.

    The thing I see all the time is weird base curves come in from outside labs. We call them to ask why they would select a 6 base for a -3.00 Rx and they tell us the computer selected it.
    ...Well, change it. That's your job right? To make sure the fallible programming doesn't make a not surprising error?

    Either way, it feels good to know I'm not alone in the struggle to provide quality. As Tallboy said, that is why we are here. OB is a place for many things, not limited to reminding us we are in this together.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Redhot Jumper I see all the time is weird base curves come in from outside labs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post

    The thing I see all the time is weird base curves come in from outside labs. We call them to ask why they would select a 6 base for a -3.00 Rx and they tell us the computer selected it.
    ...Well, change it. That's your job right? To make sure the fallible programming doesn't make a not surprising error?

    When I had my lab in the 60 s and 70 s there were no computers and you needed some top guys with experience in the surfacing as well as in the finishing departments.

    There were some strict rules to adhere to the correct base curves and powers. These days they need no more brain because the computer guides them all day.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    When I had my lab in the 60 s and 70 s there were no computers and you needed some top guys with experience in the surfacing as well as in the finishing departments.

    There were some strict rules to adhere to the correct base curves and powers. These days they need no more brain because the computer guides them all day.
    Chris, for once, I actually agree with you. Even in the early 80’s, before the proliferation of LMS systems, it was up to us to use correct curve lenses per RX. We manually calculated all curves. We knew what a sag guage was. We manually marked all lenses. We all knew how to generate lenses. Hell, we even knew what a hand pan was, and how to use it. We knew what a pan-hard rod was. We knew how to hand-cut patterns.
    Fast forward. Today’s staff rely solely on computers. The art and craftsmanship has been lost. I like to think that we old-timers have evolved to embrace the best of both worlds. Big Optical, however, is not on our wavelength.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    I worked at "The AO" in Southbridge, MA after high school back in the 1950's and spent a lot of time in the R&D Department working with a hand pan. Had me a set of brass sag gauges next to the hand pan hand rocking cylinders, mostly high cylinders. Got pretty good too. We were called "hand crankers"

    Doc Tillyer, Estell Glancey and others at B&L and Zeiss put a lot of math calculations into those "surfacing charts" and unless you could come up with a real good reason to deviate from them you and the patient were best served by strictly adhering to them.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Brass guages. Man, I forgot about those. Yeah, we had several sets of those. Nothing more rewarding than rocking a saddleback to perfection. Of course, my lab coat was saturated with cerium oxide by the end of the day. Ahhh, memories.

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    Blue Jumper Talking about Tyllier lenses .............................

    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post

    I worked at "The AO" in Southbridge, MA after high school back in the 1950's and spent a lot of time in the R&D Department working with a hand pan.

    Talking about Tyllier lenses

    During the *EXPO 67* in Montreal, my father and mother came visiting. Father being one of the larger American Optical lens customers, at the time, in Switzerland, was invited to visit the plant in South bridge, so we flew there.

    After visiting the plant, we were invited for a nice lunch with the whole board of AOCO.
    I popped my question right then: “Please explain the quality of the much cheaper AO “Amoptic lenses”.

    After a 30 second silence, I was asked from where the heck I would know about that name and lens.

    So I told them that I would get them through Imperial Optical the then largest Canadian optical company, now defunct.

    To make the story short, they explained to me that they were actually “Tyllier” lenses and just packaged in an other envelope named “Amoptic” and sold as a much cheaper lens, sold mostly into the South American markets.

    The reason was that it was cheaper to make only one type of lens, than to come up with lenses with a different base curve.




    That lets me think about all the progressive lenses, of different names, and qualities in today's market, and how many of them are the same lens at different names and prices.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Brass guages. Man, I forgot about those. Yeah, we had several sets of those. Nothing more rewarding than rocking a saddleback to perfection. Of course, my lab coat was saturated with cerium oxide by the end of the day. Ahhh, memories.
    Any one interested in photos of hand pans, brass gauges etc. I've got em and still use them for special occasions. Other oldies but goodies Laisne sphere lap cutter, R&H sphere finer/polisher, watching a glass photochromic glow in the generator and on and on.

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