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Thread: Dispensing PDs To Patients

  1. #1
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    Dispensing PDs To Patients

    I know some clinics give the patients their PDs, however, I was wondering if there was a law in Texas that do not allow clinics to hand out PDs to the patients. I was talking with a doctor from another clinic about giving out the pupillary distance and he said that it was not allowed. So I was wondering if that was just a Texas thing or an overall law.

  2. #2
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    Well if the pd is part of their medical file and they have paid for their visit, you are required by law to give them their pd. However, if you don't make it part of their file and only take the PD when you do glasses, that's different. I know some offices will charge people for taking their time to measure PD's for people who are just going to go online or elsewhere. I don't know what Texas law is but that gives you an idea

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    There’s no such law in Texas just as there’s no law that eye glasses Rx’s expire in one year in this state.
    Last edited by optical24/7; 07-17-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  4. #4
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    The genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back in and thinking it will go away.
    The best our field can hope and strive for is better educating our patients with a push from our regulatory oversights to help. (waiting for laughter on that one...)

    We in the field also need to be not just handing out PD's like it is no big deal, yet not making a fuss and upsetting a patient over it either. I explain to patients with children how the PD can and will change til they are in their twenties, those with Ft28 and Progressives that PD is only one set of numbers they need (and that I can't help them with seg height), that many get you on the website with cheap prices, but you end up paying more for what you really need or want for you RX, and that quality standards are not handled the same way. Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
    While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.

    Side rant:
    Where would the online optical places be if we could refuse to give the PD?
    And who started that we, the optical workers, NEED to give the patient the PD? Most likely the online places by the wording and passive commentary that the doctor/optical staff should or would easily give that out. If the patient didn't believe that, we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

    Airbnb, Uber, and Lyft only work because they have someone else facilitate the means for their model to work. Or, by my observations, in some situations working around/pushing the limits of state and federal regulations, which create whole new problems, in order to keep functioning.
    If any of these companies had to spend the money to provide all the materials themselves, and follow the letter of the law, they might not be as successful or work at all.

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamEye View Post
    We in the field also need to be not just handing out PD's like it is no big deal, yet not making a fuss and upsetting a patient over it either. I explain to patients with children how the PD can and will change til they are in their twenties, those with Ft28 and Progressives that PD is only one set of numbers they need (and that I can't help them with seg height), that many get you on the website with cheap prices, but you end up paying more for what you really need or want for you RX, and that quality standards are not handled the same way. Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
    While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.
    I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.

    Where would the online optical places be if we could refuse to give the PD?
    In basically the same situation, except their customers would take their own PDs.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

  6. #6
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    Blue Jumper don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office ....

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamEye View Post


    ................don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
    While these don't stop a patient from going online, I am instilling with them that they will not be getting a comparable product and that the "almighty PD" isn't as powerful as the online sites make it out to be.

    Very nice post ...........................


    However you should not forget that the largest and biggest block of online opticals today, are owned by Essilor and Luxottica.

    Both of them now produce top quality frames and lenses each one of them.

    Sometimes over the next few weeks the merger will happen and you can be assured that they will not compromise their quality reputation, through, and with cheap online sales.
    Chris Ryser
    ________________________________________
    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.


    In basically the same situation, except their customers would take their own PDs.
    I second the taking of the OC height. That was reinforced to me through my training to take it on ALL SV lenses.
    Doing this also helps patient's understand how the RX will work for their eyes, and to understand how thickness will be affected by the placement for those with high RX.

    Yet, if they took their own PD, they would see (no pun intended) how poorly that would work for them...possibly.

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Record the customers interpupillary distance in Furlongs. Feel free to give it to them when they ask.

  9. #9
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Record the customers interpupillary distance in Furlongs. Feel free to give it to them when they ask.
    Bwahahaha!
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  10. #10
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    It is an old old topic. Here is the "Eyeglass Rule" issued in 1978, the link is here.
    https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rule.../eyeglass-rule

    RULE SUMMARY:The Eyeglass Rule requires that optometrists and ophthalmologists provide patients a copy of their prescription after the completion of an eye examination without extra cost. In addition, the Rule prohibits optometrists and ophthalmologists from conditioning the availability of an examination on a requirement that patients agree to purchase any ophthalmic goods.

    Major content:

    1. Definition of "A Prescription"
    A
    prescription is the written specifications for lenses for eyeglasses which are derived from an eye examination, including all of the information specified by state law, if any, necessary to obtain LENSES for eyeglasses.

    Explaination:
    RX means all the info from eye axam, which are necessary to obtain LENSES, not the eyeglasses, so from this definition, NO data of PD is needed for getting LENSES. PD is for fitting eyeglasses.

    2. About the Copy of RX

    It is an unfair act or practice for an ophthalmologist or optometrist to:
    (a) Fail to provide to the patient one copy of the patient's prescription immediately after the eye examination is completed. Provided: An ophthalmologist or optometrist may refuse to give the patient a copy of the patient's prescription until the patient has paid for the eye examination, but only if that ophthalmologist or optometrist would have required immediate payment from that patient had the examination revealed that no ophthalmic goods were required;

    Explaination:
    The major reason for Eyeglass Rule is to limit ECPs' sales activity of any kind of conditioning.

    This Rule is from 1978, it is meaningless to stick to the wordings of 40 years ago. If your patients ask for PD, I think just give to them the PD. No matter what.


  11. #11
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    https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/doc...0813-99442.pdf

    WarbyParker's letter to FTC about the Eyeglass Rule (OphthalmicPractice Rules), in Oct, 2015

    https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/doc...867-138463.pdf

    WarbyParker's letter to FTC about the Contact Lens Rule in Jan, 2017

    FTC is considering to change the rules, but it may take some time.

  12. #12
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    If the definition of RX goes this way, then in today's online scenario, optometrists are required to give the PD to patients.

    "A
    prescription is the written specifications for lenses for eyeglasses which are derived from an eye examination, including all of the information specified by state law, if any, necessary to obtain EYEGLASSES."

    But do you think was there any difference between "
    necessary to obtain EYEGLASSES" and "necessary to obtain LENSES of EYEGLASSES" if you were the drafter of the "Eyeglass Rule" in 1978? I think there is no difference in 1978's scenario. Any way, my thinking is to give the PD to patients, no matter what.

    Any Federal or State law or rule won't last for so long which still fits today's scenario. Sticking to these wordings which might mean nothing in the eyes of the Rule's drafters.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamEye View Post
    Don't compare your $1 MCD burger to a really good homemade or steakhouse quality burger; don't compare your $15 cheap plastic frame and poor quality AR to what my office provides.
    This is a completely brilliant quote.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.

    .
    ^^This.

    Though technology will soon accurately provide vertical heights, it’s important to have that conversation with those requesting a PD. I happily release a PD I have on record. ( it’s part of their medical, you have to) But I do it with an upbeat attitude!

    I tell them, “ This is your monocular PD. If the site you’re ordering from doesn’t allow this accuracy, just add these numbers together “. ( seed of caution).

    ” But, I can’t give you a vertical PD. “

    (Deer in head light look) “ What’s that?”

    ”The monocular measurement is horizontal, but there’s a vertical position that your pupils are at that are frame dependent. That measurement can only be take when the frame you’re getting is adjusted and sitting on your face. It’s as important as just this side to that side.” ( another seed)...

    After cheerfully scribbling their PD on a sticky note and handing it to them, I usually get asked what we would charge for their lenses. If I haven’t made my case for being a better value, so be it. I find many are dissatisfied with their *cheap* purchase and return, because we weren’t A *oles about their friggin PD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    ^^This.

    Though technology will soon accurately provide vertical heights, it’s important to have that conversation with those requesting a PD. I happily release a PD I have on record. ( it’s part of their medical, you have to) But I do it with an upbeat attitude!

    I tell them, “ This is your monocular PD. If the site you’re ordering from doesn’t allow this accuracy, just add these numbers together “. ( seed of caution).

    ” But, I can’t give you a vertical PD. “

    (Deer in head light look) “ What’s that?”

    ”The monocular measurement is horizontal, but there’s a vertical position that your pupils are at that are frame dependent. That measurement can only be take when the frame you’re getting is adjusted and sitting on your face. It’s as important as just this side to that side.” ( another seed)...

    After cheerfully scribbling their PD on a sticky note and handing it to them, I usually get asked what we would charge for their lenses. If I haven’t made my case for being a better value, so be it. I find many are dissatisfied with their *cheap* purchase and return, because we weren’t A *oles about their friggin PD.
    Yes, happily release PD. If patients feel unsatisfied with their purchase from other places, they will go back to us finally.

  16. #16
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    Blue Jumper there are some things online is physically incapable of providing....................

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    AngeHamm[/B]]



    I recommend all optical dispensers take an OC height on all jobs, including SV. It can only help the patient's vision, and reinforces the fact that there are some things online is physically incapable of providing.


    ................they will be capable very soon as they are working hard at it.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  17. #17
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    Well, I've got a few thoughts on these subjects.

    If, or when the FTC places regulation on the release of the dreaded PD, the responsibility of releasing said measurement will surely have to be on the doctor. Because how can you try to regulate an unregulated industry(opticians)? Who is going to decide the proper way to measure a PD? Will the doctor copying down, or printing out, the recorded PD they used setting up the phoropter be sufficient? How about the PD from the auto refractor? Will they be required to use a CRP, measure manually with a PD stick, use a digital centration device, spot demo lenses? No offense the doctors here, but I can hardly trust the ODs and MDs in my area to get the Rx right let alone measure a PD correctly. I certainly won't be usuing anyone else's measurements. Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, but the list goes on and on. If FF lenses become common place, will doctors be required to provide POW measurements somehow as well? I'm not sure how they would without a frame, but the idiocy of having people make laws and regulations without any knowledge of the subject whatsoever will never cease to amaze me.

    OC heights. Firstly, I think it was Barry who said we should be calling it pupil height vs OC height, since the 2 are rarely coincident. I have to agree with that sentiment. OC is a location of a lens. Pupil height is a patient measurement specific the chosen frame. Regardless what term is used, it doesn't do any good without also measuring pantoscopic tilt as well. I can't count on all my fingers and toes the amount of times I have recently heard the suggestion that the OC needs to placed right in front of the pupil. Or have seen it in new patients glasses who's last pair were from WP or the big box.

    Rant over.

  18. #18
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  19. #19
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Blue Jumper Here is Barry Santini's article from 2010 ...............................

    Here is Barry Santini's article from 2010 in the 20/20 Magazine

    https://www.2020mag.com/article/taki...re-perfect-pds
    Chris Ryser
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  20. #20
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    We print PD's on our Rx's and Patients are free to go elsewhere, but we make it clear that we will not provide free service or troubleshoot any glasses purchased elsewhere. That includes verifying the RX or adjustments.

  21. #21
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper We print PD's on our Rx's and Patients are free to go elsewhere......................

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Camblor View Post

    We print PD's on our Rx's and Patients are free to go elsewhere, but we make it clear that we will not provide free service or troubleshoot any glasses purchased elsewhere. That includes verifying the RX or adjustments.

    You have the perfect attitude in your statement.

    Once the big merger has gone through, you will be facing a much bigger competition on the retail level and retail pricing, by one the biggest high quality optical corporations, world wide.

    They can instantly, convert their own owed over 10,000 retail stores, world wide, to act as service centers for their online sold eyeglasses, most probably against a fee.

    This seems to me the most logical and least costly solution to instantly boost their online sales (now at 11% of total retail sales) to a much higher number.
    Chris Ryser
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  22. #22
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Very nice post ...........................


    However you should not forget that the largest and biggest block of online opticals today, are owned by Essilor and Luxottica.

    Both of them now produce top quality frames and lenses each one of them.

    Sometimes over the next few weeks the merger will happen and you can be assured that they will not compromise their quality reputation, through, and with cheap online sales.

    Chris, could you PM me those websites? I haven't kept up with them like you do. thanks

  23. #23
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    On Line Glasses or services, section started July 2009
    ( 74 active sites listed with their Alexa traffic ratings )
    ▲ partially updated February 26, 2018, ▲
    Company GOOGLE PR RATING ALEXA, traffic rating (best 1) URL
    Zenni Optical 8,947, in the USA 2,005






    http://www.zennioptical.com
    WarbyParker 9,734, in the USA 1,906 https://www.warbyparker.com
    Eyebuydirect (Essilor) 9,734, in the USA 1,906




































    http://www.eyebuydirect.com/
    Oakley (Luxottica) on-line seller 15,963, in the USA 5,927 http://oakley.com/
    Glasses USA 21,645, in the USA 4,424 http://www.glassesusa.com/
    Coolwinks (Essilor) 20,512, in India 1,055 https://www.coolwinks.com
    evision.com, redirects to 1800 Contacts.com (Luxottica) Merger / Acquisition December 16, 2015 29,299, in the USA 5,593 http://www.1800contacts.com/
    FramesDirect (Essilor USA) 32,149,in the USA 8,772



    http://www.framesdirect.com/
    Firmoo Optical 33,849, in the USA 11,897






    http://www.firmoo.com/
    Mr Spex, (Germany) 48,815, in Germany 1,992














    http://misterspex.de
    En Chroma for color blind online seller 50,022, in the USA 18,009 http://enchroma.com /
    ▲ updated February 26, 2018, ▲ 11 ▲ updated February 26, 2018, ▲
    Below 50,000 Below 50,000
    Glasses Direct, UK, (Essilor) 57,883, in the UK 11,140
















    http://www.39dollarglasses.com/
    Coastal (Lensway, ESSILOR)



    58,974, in the USA 12,333














    https://www.coastal.com/eyewear/lensway.html
    Clearly Contacts Canada Coastal Contacts-Glasses, 60,944, in Canada 1,503



    http://www.clearlycontacts.ca/
    Vision Direct UK (Essilor)



    91,499, in the UK 5,174 http://www.lensway.co.uk/
    Below 100,000 Below 100,000
    Visionworks 99,629, in the USA 17,671 http://visionworks.com
    Goggles4you 99,680, in the USA 22,640 https://www.goggles4u.com
    Glasses.com (Luxottica) 96,598, in the USA 23,638 http://www.glasses.com
    Eyeglasses.com 108,918, in the USA 23,577

























    http://www.eyeglasses.com/
    eyeconic VSP 109,666 in the USA 23,005 http://eyeconic.com
    BonLook Eyewear, Montreal 60% up 162,074, in Canada 6,236 http://bonlook.com
    lensbest Germany (Essilor) 168,83, in Germany 9,493 http://lensbest.de
    direct-optic.fr 230,897, in France 8,701 http://www.direct-optic.fr/
    ▲ updated February 22, 2018, ▲ ▲ updated February 22, 2018, ▲
    LensesRx.com 30% up 271,150, in USA 54,965






    http://lensesrx.com/
    Mr Spex, UK 275,757, in the UK 34,283














    http://www.misterspex.co.uk/
    Safety Glasses USA



    304,719, in USA 99,464



    http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/
    Oscarwylee.com, Australia 327,465 in Australia 8,106 http://www.oscarwylee.com.au/
    Fuse Lenses 50% up 368,180, in the USA 105,269 fuselenses.com
    Shopviu, Switzerland 50% up 393,297 in Germany 62,352 https://de.shopviu.com/en
    PerfectLens Canada (contact lenses) 30 443,948, in Canada 11,261 http://www.perfectlens.ca
    Frameri 462,356 in USA, 183,105 https://frameri.com
    ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲
    Below 500,000 Below 500,000
    Gkboptical.com India (Essilor- India) 563,470, in India 56,555 http://www.gkboptical.com/
    BestBuyEyeglasses.com






    622,116 in USA 115,774



    http://www.bestbuyeyeglasses.com/
    Eyeglass Lens Direct 734,121, in USA 243,342



    http://www.eyeglasslensdirect.com
    Dioptics Sunwear 762,687, In the USA 182,846 http://www.diopticssunwear.com /
    ReplaceALens 801,509 in the USA 193,360 http://www.replacealens.com
    SaltCityOptics 39 846,661 in USA 188,263 http://www.saltcityoptics.com
    ilookglasses, Canada 851,140, in Canada 26,423 https://www.ilookglasses.ca
    CLEARLY (ESSILOR Australia) 300,949, in Australia 5,891














    https://www.clearly.com.au
    Sunoptics 908,980, in Greece 98,619 http://www.sunoptic.com
    Replacementlensexpress.com 941,487, in USA 290,283



    http://www.replacementlensexpress.com/
    Global Eyeglasses 953,360, in the USA 171,298 http://www.globaleyeglasses.com/
    ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲
    Below 1,000,000 Below 1,000,000
    ClearVisionOptical 1,021,422, in the USA 304,772 http://www.cvoptical.com
    On Line Opticians UK 1,065,687, in the UK 67,991 www.onlineopticiansuk.com
    Optical 4 less 1,576,403, in USA 552,807

















    http://www.optical4less.com/#
    MyOptiqueGroup (new, Essilor,Aug 16 2016) 1,489,663, in the UK 118,993 http://www.myoptiquegroup.com
    Visio-rx.com 1,755,107 http://www.visio-rx.com /
    ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲
    Below 2,000,000 Below 2,000,000
    Aura Visual Concepts, Inc. 2,200,263 http://auralens.net/
    Lookmatic 2,406,655, in the USA 424,005 http://Lookmatic.com
    Monocles 2,436,790 http://www.nearsights.com/
    Opticalweb (Switzerland) 2,692,395, in Marocco 26,799 http://www.opticalweb.ch
    Contactsan (Clearly Contacts China. ESSILOR) 2,256,488 http://www.contactsan.com/
    OPTICAL WAREHOUSE, (Quebec) 2,793,113, in Canada 68,857 http://entrepotdelalunette.com/en
    ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 16, 2017, ▲
    Below 3,000,000 Below 3,000,000
    Specspost.co.uk 3,738,850 http://www.specspost.co.uk/
    Leotony 3,486,175 https://www.leotony.com/?utm_source=13.7.250
    Online Eyecenter 3,174,780



    http://www.kounopt.com/
    MaxLens ((Clearly Contacts) Japan, ESSILOR)) 3,772,504 http://www.maxlens.com/
    Dead Men's Spex
    Vintage Eyewear
    4,393,488






    http://www.deadmensspex.com/default/
    Contact Lens Express UK 4,846,790 http://www.contactlensesexpress.co.uk
    Theyedoctor.com 62 5,846,962

























    http://www.theyedoctor.com/
    Yasui Lens (Clearly Contacts, Japan,ESSILOR) 6,004,301 http://www.yasuilens.com/
    EyeWeb 6,215,060 https://www.eyeweb.com
    Shady Sluts 56 6,532,105 http://shadysluts.com
    Myonlineoptical.com (ESSILOR)



    8,656,879



    http://www.myonlineoptical.com
    Contactexpress Canada 9,909,752 http://contactexpress.ca
    VERIFEYEWEAR.COM (Toronto) 16,024,489 http://VERIFEYEWEAR.COM
    Hisunglasses 10,746,204














    http://www.hisunglasses.com/
    ▲ updated December 24, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 24, 2017, ▲
    Below 30,000,000 Below 30,000,000
    ▲ updated December 25, 2017, ▲ ▲ updated December 25, 2017, ▲
    Chris Ryser
    ________________________________________
    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  24. #24
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    One way of dozens...

    From the corporation that would never try to undercut opticianry and optometry. At least that's what they said when they started out. Some of us on OB were skeptical...

    https://www.lenscrafters.com/lc-us/how-to-measure-your-pd



  25. #25
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Awesome. I can now tell them to go online to measure it themselves.

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