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Thread: Is Warby Parker Misleading the public?

  1. #1
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    Is Warby Parker Misleading the public?

    The WP has popped up in our neighborhood and I've been trying to understand exactly what products they are offering. I'm reading they are a market disrupter, but its not the first time someone has produced cheap eye-wear. So obviously its a big marketing job on the public.

    The things I've noticed are:

    Products made in China - yet they seem to go to great lengths to not mention that fact.
    Their Titanium is a PVD coating, not solid titanium, yes, they state that, but it appears misleading, the general public doesn't know what PVD is. Not sure what the metal underneath may be. Monel ???
    Sources for other materials/parts are hard to gather.
    They claim private Italian Acetate company, but why don't they come out and say who it is. Seems odd/strange at best.

    I'm trying to understand if final assembly is done in Italy/Germany and then they are stamping Made In...... (haven't ascertained that, or know Country of Origin Laws)

    A note on Acetate : A designer/manufacture that I met at VEE a year back told me that some Chinese Acetate manufacturers are not allowing their acetate to cure properly, to do so increases costs. This is why some frames get out of adjustment so easily, e.g. The WP. We see their frames coming in for adjustment quite often, with people complaining of that issue. Made me wonder if what I was told was true.

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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by AustinEyewear View Post

    A note on Acetate : A designer/manufacture that I met at VEE a year back told me that some Chinese Acetate manufacturers are not allowing their acetate to cure properly, to do so increases costs. This is why some frames get out of adjustment so easily, e.g. The WP. We see their frames coming in for adjustment quite often, with people complaining of that issue. Made me wonder if what I was told was true.

    Acetate when made in sheets to produce frames should be stored and let cure between 1 to 2 years for best performance of the final products.

    Eyeglasses frames are typically made of either metal or a type of plastic called cellulose-acetate. Cellulose acetate is derived from cotton and is flexible and strong. It is produced in long narrow sheets that are slightly wider than eyeglass frames. The sheets are up to 3 ft (0.91 m) long and 0.33 in (0.84 cm) thick.

    Read more: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Eyeg...#ixzz5DQbZIQre

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    Redhot Jumper Warby Parker is the right now the number 2 online optical .........................

    Quote Originally Posted by AustinEyewear View Post

    The WP has popped up in our neighborhood and I've been trying to understand exactly what products they are offering. I'm reading they are a market disrupter, but its not the first time someone has produced cheap eye-wear. So obviously its a big marketing job on the public.

    They have the second highest ratings on Alexa. Warby Parker is the right now the number 2 online optical after Zenni on my website listing of 73 online opticals at:

    http://optochemicals.com/web_listing.htm
    (near bottom of the page)

    I assume that it will be sold soon to the new Essilux, like many of the others. They are also putting up lots of service stations outside the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinEyewear View Post
    The WP has popped up in our neighborhood and I've been trying to understand exactly what products they are offering. I'm reading they are a market disrupter, but its not the first time someone has produced cheap eye-wear. So obviously its a big marketing job on the public.

    The things I've noticed are:

    Products made in China - yet they seem to go to great lengths to not mention that fact.
    Their Titanium is a PVD coating, not solid titanium, yes, they state that, but it appears misleading, the general public doesn't know what PVD is. Not sure what the metal underneath may be. Monel ???
    Sources for other materials/parts are hard to gather.
    They claim private Italian Acetate company, but why don't they come out and say who it is. Seems odd/strange at best.

    I'm trying to understand if final assembly is done in Italy/Germany and then they are stamping Made In...... (haven't ascertained that, or know Country of Origin Laws)

    A note on Acetate : A designer/manufacture that I met at VEE a year back told me that some Chinese Acetate manufacturers are not allowing their acetate to cure properly, to do so increases costs. This is why some frames get out of adjustment so easily, e.g. The WP. We see their frames coming in for adjustment quite often, with people complaining of that issue. Made me wonder if what I was told was true.
    I see a titanium frame on their site and it definitely is presented as made from titanium and not just coated....it is also rather expensive. They are certainly not giving away anything here, and I have titanium frames with lenses at lower price points than they do. There are many sites selling glasses cheaper than WP, and with their multiple store openings and the costs which go along with that, watch prices creep up. Also, a lot of their styles are mediocre to weak - they must have a lot of dead stock and that too will eat at them. As far as not letting acetate cure long enough, well, even some super luxury lines we all know are quite guilty of this too, just to be fair. It isn't only a made in china problem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by optimensch View Post
    I see a titanium frame on their site and it definitely is presented as made from titanium and not just coated....
    You just made my point. It IS presented as titanium. But if you look closer, you will see "Made from the strongest, lightest ion-plated titanium". I don't think that is solid titanium. That is a PVD process, where it is vaporized in a vacuum and then coats a host metal underneath. This is quite often done to plate frames in gold, otherwise it would be too costly. They do indicate temple tips are titanium without indicating ion-plated. If it can mis-lead someone on this board, then it certainly can mislead the general public.

    If you have a link to evidence of solid titanium being used, I would appreciate if you could post it. I haven't ran across it.

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    2 years ago Warby just became another BS brick and mortar retailer. Welcome to the business Warby, I had no doubt you would race to the bottom like all of my other competitors.

    Quick cured acetate is not the same. Coated BS titanium is not the same. Come see me if you want access to the best, and if you can't afford it I will have options, but I won't lie to you about what they are.

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    What is PVD? Information link please and thank you!!!

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Physical vapor deposition (PVD) describes a variety of vacuum deposition methods which can be used to produce thin films and coatings. PVD is characterized by a process in which the material goes from a condensed phase to a vapor phase and then back to a thin film condensed phase.

    Just Google "physical vapor deposition" and you will be inundated with information.

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    Redhot Jumper Welcome to the business Warby, .............................

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post

    2 years ago Warby just became another BS brick and mortar retailer. Welcome to the business Warby, I had no doubt you would race to the bottom like all of my other competitors.

    There was another one that everybody talked about and belittled them, and then about 4 years ago Essilor bought them for some 40 million Dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    There was another one that everybody talked about and belittled them, and then about 4 years ago Essilor bought them for some 40 million Dollars.
    more like 400 or 500 million actually.
    WP is well ahead of that valuation, pushing 2 B and looking to go public. This does not mean their rocket ride will continue or that they will get bought out by essilux or amazon. But you never know. They still just sell cheap Chinese plastic frames with cheap pc lenses at a huge markup with some slick marketing - a formula being replicated by many others. The store openings are just further proof that pure online is not a great formula in retail eyewear. With BM stores come the same costs and constraints as every other BM retail operation, very old school.

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    Warby Parker's Achilles heel is when millennial's move on to the next chic name. Should happen any time now as I'm seeing more and more "old" people buying them and CVS ramps up optical kiosks.

    Anyone going to short them after the IPO?

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    Redhot Jumper online sales without service in the optical retail is not the best solution..........

    Quote Originally Posted by optimensch View Post

    The store openings are just further proof that pure online is not a great formula in retail eyewear. With BM stores come the same costs and constraints as every other BM retail operation, very old school.

    ............................online sales without service in the optical retail is not the best solution. The smart online opticals have realized that, and are opening up service stations for the needed part of their sales.

    They do not want, nor need, full optical retail service with the markups that were standard up to now.

    The new wave of optical retail is here to stay and they will push out the conventional optical into the nowhere land, if they do not adapt and change the ways of doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    ............................online sales without service in the optical retail is not the best solution. The smart online opticals have realized that, and are opening up service stations for the needed part of their sales.

    They do not want, nor need, full optical retail service with the markups that were standard up to now.

    The new wave of optical retail is here to stay and they will push out the conventional optical into the nowhere land, if they do not adapt and change the ways of doing it.
    Just wondering how these "service stations" will be interpreted by the various State licensing boards. In other words can I open up a "service station" in Florida or Massachusetts without having licensed employees on staff?

    A further degradation of opticianry. How low can you go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Just wondering how these "service stations" will be interpreted by the various State licensing boards. In other words can I open up a "service station" in Florida or Massachusetts without having licensed employees on staff?

    A further degradation of opticianry. How low can you go?
    I haven't actually seen such a thing yet - ie a "service station" for eyewear purchased online. Not exactly sure what that is - is it...... a store? Lenscrafters, Sunglass hut - these are actual stores which pay rent and hire folks to work...

    Anyhow, here in Quebeckistan, where I am still defrosting, the laws are nuts. It is now unlawful for someone who is NOT an optometrist or NOT an optician, to adjust peoples prescription glasses, not even ready-to-wear readers, or a first fine of around $2000 (canadian dollars) which is only about 50 $ US, but you get the point. This is the most over regulated eyewear market on this-here planet. So, if anyone like Zenni or Warby or Bonlook want to open up a service station, a train station or a radio station, and they want to adjust glasses, they must hire a licensed optometrist or optician. Good luck with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    A further degradation of opticianry. How low can you go?
    To the absolute bottom. Maryland has been a full on free for all for a while now, but in an optical wasteland being the stranger in a white hat you'd be surprised how many townsfolk will come to you asking to do what the bandits can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Warby Parker's Achilles heel is when millennial's move on to the next chic name. Should happen any time now as I'm seeing more and more "old" people buying them and CVS ramps up optical kiosks.

    Anyone going to short them after the IPO?
    There has been a strong confluence of events, recently, that are trends and who knows, megatrends:
    1. Technology is cool
    2. Geeks that make/use technology are cool
    3. chunky plastic equals geek
    4. plastic is cheap


    Now, what's going to happen if something changes? Can onliners continue to provide dog-crap plastic frames that you'd see in OTC readers or 7-Eleven sunglass kiosks? Will they be forced into more expensive metals (which are hard to produce, I think)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Now, what's going to happen if something changes? Can onliners continue to provide dog-crap plastic frames that you'd see in OTC readers or 7-Eleven sunglass kiosks? Will they be forced into more expensive metals (which are hard to produce, I think)?
    Opticians need to unionize nationwide. The heck with your state requiring a license.


    https://www.cvs.com/content/optical

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    Licensure, in it's current state, is a massive joke. And that may be the only thing the public actually knows about "licensed" opticians on the whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Physical vapor deposition (PVD) describes a variety of vacuum deposition methods which can be used to produce thin films and coatings. PVD is characterized by a process in which the material goes from a condensed phase to a vapor phase and then back to a thin film condensed phase.

    Just Google "physical vapor deposition" and you will be inundated with information.
    I did, and found this...

    Meyer Eyewear places special emphasis on exclusive surface finishes for its titanium. An elaborate PVD (physical vapor deposition) process is used, in which titanium is condensed on the surface. This results in hardened layers of various colors such as black, berry and mocha. Colors like mauve, aurora, indigo, spearmint, and more are achieved by anodizing the titanium. Different voltages are used to produce titanium oxide layers of varying thickness on the surface. These layers act as interference filters which filter parts of the visible spectrum out, so that different colors of the rainbow arise.
    http://www.meyer-eyewear.com/manufacture/about-us/

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Opticians need to unionize nationwide.
    Too late for us I think, but not for optometrists, and maybe medicine in general.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Licensure, in it's current state, is a massive joke. And that may be the only thing the public actually knows about "licensed" opticians on the whole.
    Licensing is, and has always been, a red herring. Licensing is just another means to limit the number of opticians, limit competition and provide for higher wages. But it was sold to State Legislatures as a necessary measure to "protect the consumer" when it was actually implemented to "protect the optician."

    Decades of experiance was laid waste to the falicy that licensing/registration protects Joe and Judy Lunchpail from evil unlicensed opticians. No matter whether you live in a licensed or unlicensed State you are just as likely to get a crappy pair of glasses. And now, you can get a crappy pair of glasses real cheap from some off shore hell hole.

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    Not bad Dick.
    Erik Zuniga, ABOC.

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    Redhot Jumper My advice is still: Tighten your professional seatbelts ! ..........................

    Quote Originally Posted by optimensch View Post

    So, if anyone like Zenni or Warby or Bonlook want to open up a service station, a train station or a radio station, and they want to adjust glasses, they must hire a licensed optometrist or optician. Good luck with that.

    ....................I have heard right here on OptiBoard that LensCrafters is discontinuing the on site labs, and it seems to be a fact.

    This would indicate to me that the 5,000 plus optical retail stores will become the optical service stations of the Essilux online empire (the largest group on the web), besides their regular activities, so they will be a start, and run by accepted and so far tolerated professionals.

    ................furthermore I would love to hear that Essilor is producing substandard quality, which would be totally against their policy of standing by the best.

    My advice is still: Tighten your professional seatbelts !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    ....................I have heard right here on OptiBoard that LensCrafters is discontinuing the on site labs, and it seems to be a fact.

    This would indicate to me that the 5,000 plus optical retail stores will become the optical service stations of the Essilux online empire (the largest group on the web), besides their regular activities, so they will be a start, and run by accepted and so far tolerated professionals.

    ................furthermore I would love to hear that Essilor is producing substandard quality, which would be totally against their policy of standing by the best.

    My advice is still: Tighten your professional seatbelts !
    And all of the products will be from off shore locations.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Licensing is, and has always been, a red herring. Licensing is just another means to limit the number of opticians, limit competition and provide for higher wages. But it was sold to State Legislatures as a necessary measure to "protect the consumer" when it was actually implemented to "protect the optician."

    Decades of experiance was laid waste to the falicy that licensing/registration protects Joe and Judy Lunchpail from evil unlicensed opticians. No matter whether you live in a licensed or unlicensed State you are just as likely to get a crappy pair of glasses. And now, you can get a crappy pair of glasses real cheap from some off shore hell hole.
    I see your point of view, but it needs some balance, I believe.

    Yes, there is always a benefit whenever there is regulation...to the consumer, but also to the regulated (and to the regulators, but I digress).

    A "given" over the past decades is that opticians are duly trained and regulated to fill prescriptions for controlled medical devices. That is, what's the point of requiring a prescription for ophthalmic lenses (or contact lenses) if the fulfillment of the prescription is done in a haphazard way?

    Indeed, one of the foundational assumptions in FTC regulation in the past (like EyeGlasses I and II, in which prescribers are required to share care of their patients [my conceptualization] and cannot, in effect, disallow patients to fragment their vision care) is that there are legitimate professional alternatives to optometry and ophthalmology (and there were).

    That was then...this is now.

    We are indeed as you say in a freefall of de-facto and de-jure de-regulation. And the **** flows uphill. After 25 years I'm facing patients sourcing their own spectacles and contact lenses on the impossible-to-and-disinterested-to-regulate international internet. (What goes uninspected through the border on shipping crates stays uninspected!) We are a few scant years away from the oh-so-disruptive disruptors simply putting a nice autorefractor in the converted mop closet and having at it.

    Sharing care with professionals is not a great thing, but man, sharing care with internet pirates and self-treating patients is another. It really requires re-evaluation of how optometry wants to practice going forward. And it requires a re-evaluation of independent opticianry, too.

    My prediction is that, like pharmacy, most of optometry will duck for cover under bigger corporate umbrellas (big optical, big medicine) and be relatively happy. Some, like the now-winnowed field of independent opticians, will survive and thrive as "the alternative". Unfortunately for the kids graduating optometry in ever-increasing numbers with obscene debt-to-earning-potential ratios, there's going to be a freakishly bad oversupply until the lenders get bitten on repayment default and send signals to the education factories to lower the tuition and raise the application-to-acceptance ratio above the current 1.1:1.

    I see Big Optical going as automated as possible at the retail level, as they have done at the manufacturing level.

    In general, I'm quite bearish.

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    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ows/432150002/

    "Optometrist, which has a base salary of $131,692 ranked as the highest healthcare-related role, because of 118% growth in job postings from 2014 to 2017."

    Possible that Big Optical is being forced into automation?

    Optometry will survive as the role of optometrists expand away from refractive.

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