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Thread: Best lens for paperless living.

  1. #1
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    Best lens for paperless living.

    Recently I had a client who complained that too much of the lens was "wasted on the reading area for books ". He does 99% of his reading on the computer screen or phone, but also wants the distance zone of to be as wide as possible for "safe driving", and wants "not to go swimming" (e.g. he wants absolute as close to no swim as possible)

    I see a growing trend of people who don't benefit from the classic "40cm/60˚" reading zone paradigm. Who want the greatest clarity in the 70cm-3M zone and are willing to sacrifice wide near vision to get it, but not willing to sacrifice wide distance.

    I'm curious what lenses all of you think is the absolute best lens for people in this catagory, and what's your goto lens for these people with when they don't want to pay top dollar.

  2. #2
    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    I feel like this all depends on the strength of the add power, but my instinct leans me towards the Shamir Duo. Or he could just wear a FT.

    I would make sure he understands that even if he doesn't read books; menus, medicine bottles, and nutrition labels will all still be clearest with his full reading power.

    That aside, my office has great results with the Duo for patients in similar mindsets.
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  3. #3
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    There are lenses for that.

    See HOF post that I just posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I feel like this all depends on the strength of the add power, but my instinct leans me towards the Shamir Duo. Or he could just wear a FT.
    The Duo isn't even a progressive lens. How does a bifocal solve the problem of needing more space in the middle ranges, when they eliminate them all together? This seems to be the exact opposite of what I'm saying.
    I'm not really talking about this one case, it was just an example. I'm talking about an ongoing shift in optical priority.
    I would make sure he understands that even if he doesn't read books; menus, medicine bottles, and nutrition labels will all still be clearest with his full reading power. .
    That is the the issue at hand. It would be easy if there was no need for full reading power. We could just cut the add to the computer power, and use the whole corridor to cover the 1-6 meter range.

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    That is the the issue at hand. It would be easy if there was no need for full reading power. We could just cut the add to the computer power, and use the whole corridor to cover the 1-6 meter range.
    You asked for a solution to a patient wanting a lens that has 'no swim' and didn't need the full range of distance to reading RX, so I suggested options with no swim that would accommodate two strengths (for distance and mid), I should have stated that the idea was to half the reading power to match the range you were looking to fit.

    Quotes certainly made it feel like you were fitting a specific patient, but either way, the Duo is still very successful for patients who are opposed to a tradition PAL design but do not want to 'pay top dollar.'

    Aside from that, I'd follow drk's suggestion and read through the Hall of Fame threads dedicated to the different layouts of different PALs.
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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    The Individual 2 can be custom designed to maximize distance, secondary intermediate, and tertiary near for a presumably small full reading area in favor of wider distance and intermediate. https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/en...w.html#details

    The Varilux Sport is a similar design with more of a V-shaped corridor (wide distance, narrows into intermediate, greatest restriction at near), rather than the T which equalizes intermediate and near, or the classic hourglass which restricts intermediate most of all to maximize reading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    You asked for a solution to a patient wanting a lens that has 'no swim' and didn't need the full range of distance to reading RX, so I suggested options with no swim that would accommodate two strengths (for distance and mid), I should have stated that the idea was to half the reading power to match the range you were looking to fit.

    Quotes certainly made it feel like you were fitting a specific patient, but either way, the Duo is still very successful for patients who are opposed to a tradition PAL design but do not want to 'pay top dollar.'

    Aside from that, I'd follow drk's suggestion and read through the Hall of Fame threads dedicated to the different layouts of different PALs.
    I'm sorry if my post was unclear. I guess my communication style is overly filled with using examples and analogies, you are not the first to call me on it.

    I'm sure the Duo is a great lens (I've never despensed it though).

    The HOF post has great info and Ive made great use of shapstick's PAL descriptions, when talking with customers.

    If I haven't made myself clear yet. I'm not really looking for a solution to a problem as much in I'm trying to open a discussions with breadth of perspectives to prevent myself from getting trapped in a narrow corridor (pun intended) of my own limited viewpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post
    The Individual 2 can be custom designed to maximize distance, secondary intermediate, and tertiary near for a presumably small full reading area in favor of wider distance and intermediate. https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/en...w.html#details

    The Varilux Sport is a similar design with more of a V-shaped corridor (wide distance, narrows into intermediate, greatest restriction at near), rather than the T which equalizes intermediate and near, or the classic hourglass which restricts intermediate most of all to maximize reading.
    I would really like to hear more about your own experience dispencing these lenses, and why in particular you like them over others, for "paperless presbyopes"

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    This may sound wildly impractical but would it be interesting to fit bifocals with a slightly elevated reading segment for 70-100 cm for driving/dashboard and computer use? Then a progressive for everything else.

    This is not really a serious suggestion and I would never do this myself, but nonetheless I'd be interested to hear arguments against it, other than it likely being very tough to switch between the two.
    Last edited by Airegin; 03-07-2018 at 07:47 PM.

  10. #10
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airegin View Post
    This may sound wildly impractical but would it be interesting to fit bifocals with a slightly elevated reading segment for 70-100 cm for driving/dashboard and computer use? Then a progressive for everything else.

    This is not really a serious suggestion and I would never do this myself, but nonetheless I'd be interested to hear arguments against it, other than it likely being very tough to switch between the two.
    In my office it's a routine modification for drivers and musicians. I have one client who competes in GT3 (auto racing) and uses a segmented bifocal with the add power cut for the distance to the instrument cluster. I have other clients who wear segmented multifocals in their sunglasses who prefer the same modification. My musician clients do well with a high set (pupil area), wide segmented multifocal, which offers very good vision when gazing at the charts as well as the conductor without unnatural posturing.

    Desktop displays have two critical distances- the distance to the display screen, and the distance to the desktop, typically 65cm and 40cm respectively. Multifocals of various designs will work here, my preference being standard PALs or segmented multifocals, matching what is being used in their general purpose eyeglasses. The work distances should be measured and not approximated, and used as starting points for trial framing.

    The OP's client probably needs a separate task pair of eyeglasses because there is no single PAL that does it all.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    In my office it's a routine modification for drivers and musicians. I have one client who competes in GT3 (auto racing) and uses a segmented bifocal with the add power cut for the distance to the instrument cluster. I have other clients who wear segmented multifocals in their sunglasses who prefer the same modification. My musician clients do well with a high set (pupil area), wide segmented multifocal, which offers very good vision when gazing at the charts as well as the conductor without unnatural posturing.

    Desktop displays have two critical distances- the distance to the display screen, and the distance to the desktop, typically 65cm and 40cm respectively. Multifocals of various designs will work here, my preference being standard PALs or segmented multifocals, matching what is being used in their general purpose eyeglasses. The work distances should be measured and not approximated, and used as starting points for trial framing.

    The OP's client probably needs a separate task pair of eyeglasses because there is no single PAL that does it all.

    Best regards,

    Robert Martellaro
    Thank you, that is very insightful!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    In my office it's a routine modification for drivers and musicians. I have one client who competes in GT3 (auto racing) and uses a segmented bifocal with the add power cut for the distance to the instrument cluster. I have other clients who wear segmented multifocals in their sunglasses who prefer the same modification. My musician clients do well with a high set (pupil area), wide segmented multifocal, which offers very good vision when gazing at the charts as well as the conductor without unnatural posturing.

    Desktop displays have two critical distances- the distance to the display screen, and the distance to the desktop, typically 65cm and 40cm respectively. Multifocals of various designs will work here, my preference being standard PALs or segmented multifocals, matching what is being used in their general purpose eyeglasses. The work distances should be measured and not approximated, and used as starting points for trial framing.
    That's a very interesting approach, not one I would use though. Desktop displays have an infinite number of critical distances, depending on how and where they are used. My monitor is about 1 meter from me at the moment. I use several computers in different locations, sometimes it's closer sometimes it's further. It could be above or below my line of site. If I'm lying in bed with my laptop the distance to my keyboard could be 20 cm or if I'm standing it could be 70 cm. You can't measure work distances unless someone is always working the same way, using multifocals assumes consistency and limited range of use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    The OP's client probably needs a separate task pair of eyeglasses because there is no single PAL that does it all.
    I'll say it one more time, I'm seeking perspective to serve ALL my clients, not a solution to that one individuals problem. I saw him months ago, and it will probably be 2 years until he comes back in (if ever).

    People seem to be missing the point of this thread: The traditional reading zone is rapidly becoming obsolete, as more and more people move away from books and paper. Today people are dealing with many focal distances that don't fit neatly into near, intermediate and far. So far I haven't figured out what are the optimum lenses for people who have already made the shift, and it won't be too long until that will be nearly everyone. I'm not satisfied with giving people lenses that "somewhat" meet their needs, I want to give EVERYONE lenses that meet their needs as optimally as is currently possible.

    For the most part I tend to put people in IOT Alpha designs, but that's because of familiarity. Obviously others do very different things, If I understood their thinking and why they give the lenses they do, I might recommend different lenses, that would serve my clients better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    People seem to be missing the point of this thread: The traditional reading zone is rapidly becoming obsolete, as more and more people move away from books and paper. Today people are dealing with many focal distances that don't fit neatly into near, intermediate and far. So far I haven't figured out what are the optimum lenses for people who have already made the shift, and it won't be too long until that will be nearly everyone. I'm not satisfied with giving people lenses that "somewhat" meet their needs, I want to give EVERYONE lenses that meet their needs as optimally as is currently possible.

    For the most part I tend to put people in IOT Alpha designs, but that's because of familiarity. Obviously others do very different things, If I understood their thinking and why they give the lenses they do, I might recommend different lenses, that would serve my clients better.
    People will always want to read up close for printed recipes, food labels, manuals, medicine bottles, computer keyboard, the occasional magazine or newspaper etc.

    Another option could be to fit a short corridor in a larger frame and the desired intermediate correction in the wider reading area, with more than 5mm of space left under the reading area. That way whenever the client wants to read something up close they still can by looking under the "reading" area (in this case intermediate), where the add goes up to 125%. The amount of swim will depend on the add but there would always be some obviously.
    Last edited by Airegin; 03-12-2018 at 01:53 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airegin View Post
    Thank you, that is very insightful!
    Your welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    That's a very interesting approach, not one I would use though. Desktop displays have an infinite number of critical distances, depending on how and where they are used. My monitor is about 1 meter from me at the moment. I use several computers in different locations, sometimes it's closer sometimes it's further. It could be above or below my line of site. If I'm lying in bed with my laptop the distance to my keyboard could be 20 cm or if I'm standing it could be 70 cm.
    Frequency of use tends to drive the need. The choice is between good acuity and comfort, or vision only good as the brain can tolerate due to blurred images and text, with varying degrees of asthenopia. An age 60 client last week was using photoshop on a Mac 27" desktop at 34", with print copy on the desk at 18", with the need to move close to the screen (roughly 16") to see small detail. I placed +1.00 of her +2.50 add on the top of a general purpose PAL, the rest for the near, with a +1.25 chemistrie clip over, so she wouldn't have to lean in and lift her chin when inspecting very small detail on the screen.

    I'll say it one more time, I'm seeking perspective to serve ALL my clients, not a solution to that one individuals problem. I saw him months ago, and it will probably be 2 years until he comes back in (if ever).
    Although I've found that in general, most people are the same, their near vision needs vary substantially, primarily due to blur sensitivity, pupil diameter, accommodative reserve, depth of focus, and their individual needs WRT work station layout, hobbies, posture anomalies, etc. A Swiss army knife will usually work well enough to remove one screw, but to remove a hundred screws a carpenter will have an assortment of tools to do the job.

    People seem to be missing the point of this thread: The traditional reading zone is rapidly becoming obsolete, as more and more people move away from books and paper. Today people are dealing with many focal distances that don't fit neatly into near, intermediate and far. So far I haven't figured out what are the optimum lenses for people who have already made the shift, and it won't be too long until that will be nearly everyone. I'm not satisfied with giving people lenses that "somewhat" meet their needs, I want to give EVERYONE lenses that meet their needs as optimally as is currently possible.
    Your preaching to the choir- the first pair of eyeglasses I made for computer use were a pair AO Technicas, circa 1990. Unfortunately, that required a separate pair of eyeglasses, and will always be required for most folks, until the time that we can change the laws of physics, cure presbyopia, or improve the performance of electroactive lenses, with my money being on the latter.

    For the most part I tend to put people in IOT Alpha designs, but that's because of familiarity. Obviously others do very different things, If I understood their thinking and why they give the lenses they do, I might recommend different lenses, that would serve my clients better.
    Listen closely to your clients needs, learn, sometimes by wearing, the differences between PAL designs, and target the the tools we have available to each specific individual, increasing the likelihood of optimal visual comfort.

    Hope this helps,

    Robert Martellaro
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    For that one person, consider the Shamir inTouch.

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    I have my dad in the Essilor Road pilot and he loves it. Everything he does is laptop and driving.

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    duplicate post, sorry.
    Last edited by JuliaG; 03-23-2018 at 04:17 PM.

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    Individual 2i will accomplish what you're looking for.

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