Anyone give me their opinions on labs? I'm looking for the lab that produces the best quality for the fairest price on optical jobs (glasses).
Anyone give me their opinions on labs? I'm looking for the lab that produces the best quality for the fairest price on optical jobs (glasses).
Hello Dr. Watson,
I will give you three options which you may explore based on your particular situation and needs.
Naturally, my first recommendation would be an ELOA lab. I know some of the personnel at Southern Optical in Atlanta, Ga, and they are very conscientious people (and such people usually produce good work). The contact number is 706-737-5995, and their website is Southern Optical. This is not just a "company" recommendation- there are a lot of benefits I believe Southern could provide (e.g., you can send orders via VisionWeb.com, which is quickly becoming a well-utilized resource to provide quicker ordering, with greater accuracy and turnaround time).
If you prescribe Varilux products and are looking for an independent Varlilux distributor, I would highly recommend Better Optics in Austell, GA. Owned by Rick & Melanie Sewell, the contact number is 770-819-8800.
Finally, if you do not use Varilux products, when I was a Dispensing Optician in the Florida Panhandle I utilized a lab in Georgia called J & B Optical, which always provided good work for me. Sorry, but I don't have the number for that lab.
Hope this helps! I like the way you qualified your question by indicating you were looking for a lab with good quality and fair prices. When I managed a retail lab in Pennsylvania, I used to send work to a local Walman lab. They were definitely not the cheapest, but when I considered the level and timeliness of service, they were the best choice for my outside work. I don't believe there is a Walman lab in your immediate area, but given that the world has become such a smaller place with overnight delivery and all, they might still be an option as well.
Pete Hanlin, ABOM
Vice President Professional Services
Essilor of America
http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74
For the best combination of quality, service and price I have seen in many, many years is Laramy-K optical in Indianola, IA.
http://www.laramyk.com
(800)525-1274
This is an uncut only lab and they are not a Varilux distributor.
They do have their own in-house Zeiss AR.
Their service will be an asset to your practice/optical business if you do your own finishing.
I have not heard of Laramyk, though I am sure they are a fine lab.
I second Pete about Southern. I used them even when I was in DC 10 years ago..............
By the way, always loved your version of "Tennesse Stud".
(so how does a blind bluegrass picker become an OD anyway?):D
Disappointed...
I'm surprised there aren't more comments on this subject!
The problem is that best is a very subjective call. I believe that business is about relationships. Each consumer has a unique balance of quality, service and price and each has a different deffenition of each of those items. So best is like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder (consumer).
What if each of your customers asked the same question about your quality,service & product in your trade area? Would you like to have them all bringing in a checklist of items to compare price, warranty, delivery times and a host of other items that make up their idea of economy. Would you have time to answer all of their surveys?
As it is we do business both as a provider and as a consumer on a relationship basis. Those are not usually the price shopping relationship but the friendship kind of relationships. Its the best way to do business. The few dollars you save by shopping around are lost by shopping around.
Pick someone you like and can communicate with well and you will get good service and the jobs the way you want them.
It's a wonderful life!
Of course it is completely subjective! That's why I want to know people's opinions. The more the better.
I don't think it all comes down to just relationships. I certainly do not want to be paying twice as much as some other lab that is just as good. I know what your point is; however, sometimes it does come down to price.
I want to hear about people's good and bad experiences. I want to know if a lab is overpriced. I want to get the skinny on each lab out there. Tell me some "inside stuff." I want to know about labs period.
Surely there must be more opticians out there with opinions (?) Or am I just in the wrong place?
Can anyone tell me where I can get a list of all the labs in the U.S.?
Mr. Watson,
Their are hundreds of labs out there. Maybe you should be more specific and ask about certain labs that are in your local, state or regional vicinity. Narrow the field then maybe some people will come out of the woodwork to reply about good/bad experiences. I think it maybe a question that is too broad and no one knows where to start. I would be more specific by focusing on what you want and stating what in your mind is the best.
Service, Quality, Speed, Product, Price
Even the very best lab cannot fulfill all the above requirements even-though that is what we strive for. I would say at best you could pick three. For example I would consider the lab I work for to be focused on Service, Quality and Speed. However we may not be the lowest price.
Hope this helps,
Todd
I have to agree with Todd. If you are looking for the least expensive lab, that is a somewhat easy excersize. Simply call around for the pricelists, do the mental gymnastics of figuring out their add-ons, etc., and select whomever gives you the best price.
Having performed this tedious task as a practice manager in three different markets, I might suggest that you will find the labs will end up being within about 5-15% of each other when you evaluate them based on all the work you send. Each lab will likely have low prices on a few items you order, but the total usually comes out about the same (unless you try to split up your work and price shop by order type- which is about as convenient and advisable as buying milk at one supermarket and traveling cross town to buy meat).
Labs, like Optometric Practices, are businesses. They all have to make money to survive, and they all have to compete with each other. Accordingly, they all tend to stay in line more or less on their prices. Again, like an OD practice, it really boils down to the owner/manager/proprietor and his/her priorities and philosophies.
Oh well, none of this provides you with the specific labs you are looking for- but its good advice all the same from someone who spent 13 years looking for that "magical lab" that provides quality service fast with excellent prices. The "skinny" is, labs are labs. Go to your state society meeting and ask who your colleagues use. Call the offices around town. Give some time to the lab rep who visits your office. Or, go and visit some labs- you can tell alot by taking an on-site look at the operation.
Good luck.
Pete Hanlin, ABOM
Vice President Professional Services
Essilor of America
http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74
I have been spoiled by Pech lab in Iowa. They do a fantastic job, and if you pay by the 10th, you get a huge discount for the jobs. Customer service is exceptional and the quality too! I've recently started ordering online with them which provides me a great convenience. Absolutely no negativity here.
My primary lab is Homer Optical in Silver Spring, MD and my Hoya lab is QSA in Bethel, CT. Both of them provide outstanding service and quality. Both of them allow me to use my Optronics 4T Tracer, which I love. Homer is still a family-owned lab and works hard to establish and maintain a close relationship with its customers. Hoya/QSA is a larger entity, but still works hard to develop and maintain close relationships with customers.
I'm reminded at this point of an article in a recent Opti-Courier addressing these kinds of lab relationships. If you are shopping only for price and in so doing use a multitude of labs, please understand that they have no more vested interest in your business than does that customer who only shops for the cheapest eyewear they can find. When you really need the help of an expert, or a favor or anything else that demands extra time and trouble, you won't have developed the working relationships that you need. My suggestion is to find a lab whose prices you can live with, whose product mix is what you need for most of your work and whose customer service meets your needs and make that lab your own. In the long run, it's the most cost-effective business decision you can make.
Well, Mr. Kevin E. Watson, O.D., M.E. here ya go:
Go do your doctoring and get out of the eyewear dispensing business for which optometrists are no longer trained!
If you insist in trying to play optician, set your dispensary up as a separate corporation, hire a qualified, experienced optician, pay them a decent salary and let them run it for you and you split the net before taxes 50/50. (BTW, not your receptionist/dispenser)
You are likely to have an increase in eyewear sales and a reduction in lab costs and a lot less messy details like you are asking about to deal with.
It is quite apparent that you aren't qualified to deal with this issue anyway.
Please, just be a good doctor and leave the opticianry to the good opticians.
Last edited by Homer; 03-04-2003 at 12:02 PM.
As was stated earlier, this answer is subjective, but my lab of choice is Walman Optical. I use the branch in Evansville, IN, but they are accessable anywhere in the country. The people are super friendly and very helpful. The prices are a bit higher in some areas, but they make up for that with two free redos on any job (within a year), fantastic warranties and the commitment to 'working with me' on whatever I need. They have access to nearly every lens on the market and they can do all of the hard stuff. They give us special pricing for state welfare insurance jobs and have special deals for second pair and packages. They have online ordering and offer a tracing system that eliminates the need to take c-sizes or send jobs back because the shape is a little off or the c-size is wrong. If you have your own finish lab, you might not care about some of these issues, but full service, warranties and friendliness, Walman is my choice.
In the imortal words of Socrates, 'I drank what?'. -Chris Knight (from the movie Real Genius)
Doc,
Something else to consider, I have seen no one mention, is that the lens you like will also have a GREAT bearing on what lab you use. You just love "Varilux" than you have to use an official varilux lic. lab, you like HOYA? samething applies.. and you will NOT find a varilux lab selling HOYA or a HOYA selling Varilux..those guys have a great battle going :) ... than you are a VSP provider? oops you have to use a VSP lab.. Which version of VSP? also makes different labs available...
You want glass lens? oops again a lot of labs are farming this out or not doing it and it gets fairly confusing... with all the choices of PAL's out here there is NO WAY any lab is going to carry them all and in every material..that would not even come close to being cost effective.. You want fast service without the usual shipping than it's a local lab.. and as a wholesaler I can tell you that SHIPPING IS GETTING OUT OF HAND.. two shipments of the four I got yesterday the shipping was actually more for one than the lens I got!! Some lens you have no choice but to use a certian company and everything else is out of price range to make it effective.. so I paid $11 shipping on a HALF pair of FT35 with a 6 add..
So you can see it is not an "easy" answer to give about which lab is "best"..best at what and giving you what product? I stick to what I can do best (besides the generic stuff) I do mostly complicated RX work..crazy prism, biconcave/convex, dive masks, super index stuff, custom cutting drills etcetra.. I stay away from glass and poly.. for me no money and not worth the hassle.. (guess that might change soon though :)) BUT labs are going in two directions.. special and or mass production and no way we could survive with the way it was heading ..as it is now the vast majority of labs give away SV and FT's and all the profit came from premium stuff... the opticians and OD's started using more and more multiple labs finding the deals and those guys who were giving away SV and FT's were getting mass volume of **** and they (retail) went for lower costs on the premium.. I know two other lab owners who shut thier doors in the last 6 months just because of this..
Wholesale is a dog eat dog world and it is TOUGH to make it, the big guys have the advantage (Essilor,HOYA.. now SOLA has started) but you got to do what you got to do to make it.. I know plenty of lab owners who are sitting and blubbering in the beer.. but that's life.. fight'em or join'em but don't whine..sheesh..
Now you might have a little more information to narrow your list of what type of lab you might be looking for..
BTW last time I saw a list of labs, it was in the 150 JPD (job per day) range and up it was around the 600's (I forget the exact number)
Jeff "isn't wholesale grand" Trail
Hey Judy,
I remember when Bob and Addie were working out of a little hole in the wall, long before they grew, expanded....and made their daughter the president of the company! But for my money, Homer and B&W-Buddy Shields in Ballmer (That's Baltimore to all yous outside of Highlandtown,Hun!)- were the two best labs going...with the old B&L lab in Southeast DC a close third.
To speak on what Jeff was saying, there is no all encompassing lab that can do everything. I use one lab for Varilux, one for glass, one for anything coated in Crizal...plus I have my own inhouse surfacing lab.
Oh Homer, why do that to a perfectly good optician. I have yet to meet an OD or MD that has a dispensory that didn't hire an optician to get them up and running and then, when they just enough knowledge to be dangerous, force that optician to leave....only to duly reget it later!
They are the same ones who want labs that do everything perfectly, on a rush basis and with schlockhouse prices.EyeManFla said:
Oh Homer, why do that to a perfectly good optician. I have yet to meet an OD or MD that has a dispensory that didn't hire an optician to get them up and running and then, when they just enough knowledge to be dangerous, force that optician to leave....only to duly reget it later!
The really good OD's & MD's are the ones that are concerned about their patients and their staff (same thing) and much less worried about the status symbols of life.
Now, I'm assuming you are referring to me? It would help others if you got the name right. Try again...Homer said:
Well, Mr. Kevin E. Watson, O.D., M.E. here ya go:
Go do your doctoring and get out of the eyewear dispensing business for which optometrists are no longer trained!
If you insist in trying to play optician, set your dispensary up as a separate corporation, hire a qualified, experienced optician, pay them a decent salary and let them run it for you and you split the net before taxes 50/50. (BTW, not your receptionist/dispenser)
You are likely to have an increase in eyewear sales and a reduction in lab costs and a lot less messy details like you are asking about to deal with.
It is quite apparent that you aren't qualified to deal with this issue anyway.
Please, just be a good doctor and leave the opticianry to the good opticians.
Wow, harsh comments! I didn't mean to get your underwear in knots. I just don't think everything comes down to just quality. It's usually quality AND price. After all, it if was just about quality everyone would have a Lexus, but we can't all afford those.
What do you mean we are "no longer trained?" How are we not trained? I don't recall missing any of the optical/ophthalmic courses.
Why do I need to set up my business so that I'm 50/50 with the opticians? Why do I need to do anything 50/50 with anyone? Can't I just run the business myself? What's wrong with that? Do you split your earnings 50/50 with anyone else you work with?
What makes you think I will be so much more successful splitting fees?
Now be honest because I don't want any flippant comments. You can't learn anything from that.
Why is it that I'm not qualified to deal with this issue? Is it my line of reasoning? Do you think that because I'm even asking about different labs that somehow I'm not qualified to even be here?
Do you think it would be better if I left the optiboard forums? (I will post this as a separate thread and lets see what the responses are).
*By the way, I was warned about you. Apparently you have a huge chip on your shoulder about optometrists. Not sure what it is but apparently it's a pretty darn big one.
I don't think he (homer) was talking as much about "dispensing" as he was about the choices. combinations of design and material and working within those boundries..I know that I have a lens data book that gets up graded often with discontinued and new stuff and it is about 1400 pages..the "lens fax" booklet is about a pain in the rear, and I know a lot of my accounts drive me crazy with it, "oh but it says that lens is available".. but you can not put that -7 on a 6 base :).. and it might be available in one design in a mix but not another on and on.. So I "think" he was gearing it more towards letting everyone do what they have the most training towards and where it would be most beneficial.. if you have a busy practice than you would not want to be in the dispensary talking about the myriad of choices in a SV in every combination of add on under the sun.. same as you would not want an optician back by the lane giving out advice on anatomy or pharmacology.. wouldn't be the most cost effective way of use of staff.. but than again he may have meant something completely differentdocwatson said:
What do you mean we are "no longer trained?" How are we not trained? I don't recall missing any of the optical/ophthalmic courses.I'll let him tell you about it, I'm sure he will..
I tend to agree with you here, on a number of fronts, in some States it is even illegal for an OD and optician to do this.. and as an owner I am the one taking the chances so why should I split anything 50/50? .. I pay a good wage, I have perks.. anyone wants to take the SAME chances I did and hang everything out on a line..more power to you.. you bust..well you lose, you make it, than reap the prize :) I find that a bit extreme.. well if you want to put in around $175K to 200K on the equipment, another $45K on my lens stock..I'll go halfs :) .. you get to be the first one in the last one out and put up with everything I have to do though, spend 85 hours a week here...Why do I need to set up my business so that I'm 50/50 with the opticians? Why do I need to do anything 50/50 with anyone? Can't I just run the business myself? What's wrong with that? Do you split your earnings 50/50 with anyone else you work with?
I don't think that is a "qualification" thing as much as with the "generalized" question and how it was put forth than it shows this is a weak point for you, not that that is a BAD thing and most of us did steer you towards what the needed questions to be asked should be, other points to take into consideration but hey atleast you asked?Why is it that I'm not qualified to deal with this issue? Is it my line of reasoning? Do you think that because I'm even asking about different labs that somehow I'm not qualified to even be here?
I snipped the rest because it was just getting silly, ignore it if you need to but keep asking away.. it's the easiest way to learn. :)
BTW if you want and expect to find "cheap with quality" you are not in optics.. not with the price swings we have in wholesale between junk volume at big discounts and the other end of the spectrum is a major lab who charges crazy prices and gets by with it because of the "name". But this is usually learned the "hard way" by most OD's and opticians who are getting their feet wet :)
If this post (and Homers) "hurt you feelings" than you are in for a WILD RIDE, it gets rougher than this more often than not..need to have a thick skin around this place.. as long as it does not sink to a "personal" level more or less anything goes here.. a few of us bang heads on here often (right Robert?) I don't take any of it personally.. sit back and enjoy the ride.. plus this is a great place to learn a few things :) put your bullet proof jacket on and have fun
Jeff "cut me..do I not bleed resin" Trail
I apologize for that and for perhaps being over zealous on a point or two. (I guess I was reacting rather than paying attention to the name)
Kevin, quite honestly, there is a lot of resentment among some of us opticians who have looked at over 35 years in this business. Sometimes we just let it all hang out and some optometrists feel as if we are shooting at an individual when we are really venting our frustrations with history and the state of present affarirs.
You did ask for an opinion and I did give you an honest opinion. It is my experience that optometry is no longer prepared for the day to day details of the business of opticianry - that is most everything after the numbers have been written on the Rx pad. (I can prove this to you from a state licensure examination)
I have been in wholesale and have dear friends in wholesale who hear the questions of optometrists and many do not know 101 about eyewear dispensing or ophthalmic lenses. And they are the ones who are training their staffs to dispense.
Many of us old farts have worked for optometrists and know that often we are considered the waterboys/girls of optometry. I worked for a highschool classmate who became an optometrist. He often asked me what we should do in a certain situation, but he also manipulated me out of HIS optical dispensary. Promises that were lies.
I have trained dispensers for chain stores, optometrists, Ophthalmologist and laboratories. I know what they know, what they are allowed to do and how they are treated. There are a few outstanding optometrists who realize their inherent weaknesses and rely on knowledgable opticians to run their dispensaries and help them make it profitable - They do very well. The others struggle with it all of their lives.
While you may have indeed had optical/ophthalmic courses, they were mostly theory and not the practical business of running a dispensary or sophisticated eyewear adjustmestsor lens system selection, let alone a whole business.
I know some OD's who are great dispensers. It is a natural fit. But most want to be doctors and delegate the "messy" part to undertrained staff. Sorry that's how it is. It is true that I do not know your exact situation but as my mother used to tell me;
"if the shoe fits wear it! " Otherwise simply ignore the flippant remarks of us here uneducated opticians who have been able to make a living out of people who take their Rx's out of the OD's office to get some professional treatment.
Sorry too, if any of this is offensive. It is just an opinion, as are your comments.
Last edited by Homer; 03-12-2003 at 09:39 PM.
I just don't think everything comes down to just quality. It's usually quality AND price. After all, it if was just about quality everyone would have a Lexus, but we can't all afford those.
First of all, I believe OptiBoard is a place for everyone's opinions, so I sincerely hope you will stick around. If anything, we need to have more ODs in this place. Whether the other O's like it or not (mostly "not," it seems), Optometry has done a remarkable job of educating- and then legislating- their way into the role of the gatekeeper of eyecare in the American health system.
Concerning quality and price, I understand what you mean. It seems like there should be someplace out there that provides decent work for a great price, doesn't it? I've been exactly where I imagine you to be. That is, when you look at your contact lens practice, you see a commodity- just like your patients do. The product is essentially the same, its just a matter of finding a source that will give it to you at the best price.
Concerning ophthalmic laboratories and Rx lenses, however, I would have to continue to argue that there is simply no way around finding a quality source. The problem is multi-dimensional. First, the kinds of materials, designs, and lens treatments that are hitting the market are becoming more and more advanced (and as such require more and more finesse to produce). Second, if you want to sell premium products, your patients demand premium performance- as they should.
So, even if you save 10% (which is probably all you'll save if you successfully price shop and find the absolute cheapest source for your product) on production, if the lens hasn't been surfaced well (which isn't always evident through the lensometer), delievered on time, and to the parameters you ordered, your patient is going to be dissatisfied.
In my opinion, based on years of managing operations for some wonderful ODs, there is enough to worry about in the average Optometric Practice without having doubts concerning the quality of the product you are dispensing. If you treat your search for a lab the same way you hopefully treated your search for your source for custom rigid gas perm lenses, I believe you'll come out ahead in the long run.
To sum, I would turn your Lexus argument around and ask this question. If you had the opportunity to purchase Lexus quality for only 10% more than the cost of a Chevy, wouldn't you? The interesting thing about labs today is- quality doesn't cost a whole lot more than the cheap stuff!
Just my opinion, though.
Pete Hanlin, ABOM
Vice President Professional Services
Essilor of America
http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74
EyeMan,
Addie passed away a couple of months ago, so it's been a tough year or so for Bob and Candie. I was at a dinner they hosted last month, and both are hanging tough. I can honestly say that were it not for Bob and Candie, I don't know how I would have survived the last few months with such a slow economy. You just can't find that kind of understanding and forbearance with a big company.
I read about Addie awhile back. The Dunns are good people. Bob gave ol' Pat Henan a job when nobody else would hire him after an auto accident that almost killed him. Sure, Pat was a out of step with conventional sales like today's reps....but we all loved him.
Hey Doc Watson, While you maintain that you are qualified to take care of Opthalmic Dispensing, will you be doing it personally or will you be delegating this task to someone who is not formally educated in the field of Opthalmic Dispensing? To most of us it doesn't make a lot of sense to work at giving a high quality eye exam only to have the patient handed off to untrained personnel who are just taught the basics. So often we have people that come in from their Dr.'s office saying they can't do this..... but can you? The funny thing is, we can. The Dr. 's office couldn't do it because the unqualified person handling them hadn't a clue beyond the basics.
Okay, let's clear things up a bit...
I never said anything about "cheap." I'm not looking for low cost. If two labs have exactly the same quality lenses, whatever name product they may put out, their return policies are both fantastic, they both have great customer service, and they are both pretty much perfect in everyway, but one will cost me less than the other, guess which one I'm going with?
My point of spelling out cost is that cost is a factor. I anticipated everyone here pointing out their best QUALITY lab, but I know no one was going to mention that their choice is also the most expensive lab on earth. So I threw cost in to see what reactions I would get. What I did not anticipate was the negative responses to my inquiry!
Did I ask incorrectly or are there a lot of preconceived notions about us cheap optometrists? I have yet to meet one that wasn't thinking about the bottomline on a daily basis, so I can see how opinions can be formed.
Anyway, quality first, cost second.
My questions were presented a little open-ended to give people some latitude with advice. I thought that if I asked questions that were too specific I would not get the candid answers I was looking for. For example, just asking our opticians this very open-ended question, "What do you think of this lab?" Will generate all kinds of either very positive comments or some very negative ones that just go on and on, such as "Oh, they are great, they have a wonderful return policy, they get the jobs done on time, etc." Or, "I have been working with them for a year and they are terrible! The product is great but I think it's their process that stinks, we have been returning the same lenses for months..." These are the comments I'm looking for in this thread. It's not that I don't trust my own people but you gotta look outside to find fresh ideas...
I am also not stuck on any one product. I left this open-ended too because I want candid answers on any product. If I specify what products we have been using, I'm afraid that all the answers will be along those lines, completely ignoring great labs out there that have different products.
Maybe I should have different threads. Maybe I should ask about the best Varilux labs then ask about the best Hoya labs and so on. Eventually after several hundred threads I can put it all together!! :D
Honestly, I'm new to the private practice arena. I was an engineer for five years, I went back to school to be an optometrist (so I'm no spring chicken), and I've been working as a relief doctor and as a commercial doc to this point. I've been at this practice for nearly a year now and I think it's time for me to learn everything there is to know about the optical business. One way to start is to find out what's out there.
I've never been one to just sit back and let someone else do everything. I think it's my job to know what everyone else is doing. How can anyone judge anything without the knowledge? I'm not looking to take jobs away, I just want to learn.
I hope all of you take these comments in the best way possible. I want to be the best damn doctor there ever was, and I want my patients to reap the rewards of this effort.
The opticians we have are great and I've learned a lot from them. Now it's time to learn something from the optiboards!! :D
Are we clear now?
P.S. We all know we have opinions. Everything in these forums is pure opinion. Even what you may think is a fact is just an opinion. E=mc**2 is an opinion right?So just fire away!
Several of us here, Keith, are independent opticians. We definately see a need for the separation of "church and state". Many of us also do our own finishing since we think we do it better than most "organ grinder's monkies" in the labs.
Someone has already mentioned Laramy-K, which I use almost exclusively, however, they don't do Varilux and they are sell only uncut lenses. I suspect this is not where you are.
There are very few labs where you can get personal service and you can talk to the person who is surfacing or edging your lenses. The ones with great return policies have generally higher prices. Those with loss leader pricelists for SV, BIF and some PALs make it up somewhere else. I find it almost impossiable to do an anylitical comparison on just price alone, let alone the service, return and quality issues.
As has been stated, the difference between the highest price and the lowest price for quality laboratories is probably much less than 5%.
My view is to get consistant high quality, dependable delivery times and someone I can talk to. If I have this, I will pay the price because it makes my job so much easier.
My original statement was that business is mostly about relationships. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
Looking forward to future conversations.
Your more specific questions do need to be addressed in another theread.
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