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  1. #26
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill212 View Post
    Providing a warranty on AR coating for anything other than manufacturer defects is a sham.
    Not sure I understand this logic. Are you saying no one should offer warranties for scratches? Because that is natural wear and tear compared to a defect. If we only ever offered warranties on technical defects- warranties would go down 95% in a business like mine. And I certainly wouldn't feel right with that stipulation.

    Cost wise it certainly doesn't make sense considering anyone with a coating worth anything is going to replace that lens for free. No cost to the provider, so why gyp the patient?
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  2. #27
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    I just can't understand this logic. Let's say you sell running shoes. A customer comes back a year later after running everyday in the same shoes. They complain the soles have worn out on their shoes. Would you replace them under "warranty"? I should hope not. Unless you already overcharged them when they purchased the shoes.

    Being overcharged by your lab to provide this "warranty" and overcharging every customer just doesn't make sense to me. I expect coatings to preform as they say they will, and if they don't they should be replaced by manufacturer. I expect patients to take care of their lenses as they should, and if they don't they should be replaced by the patient.

    I know customers want to buy things on "sale", and get things for "free". People think a "buy 3 tires get the 4th one free" ad is somehow a deal, but your not going to convince me it is.

  3. #28
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    Cost wise it certainly doesn't make sense considering anyone with a coating worth anything is going to replace that lens for free. No cost to the provider, so why gyp the patient?
    and there it is --FREE--. If you think it's free and you don't think that you and your patient have already paid for this free replacement lens upfront your living in the clouds.

    I am not ripping off the patient. (gyp really isn't a nice word, btw). I can charge them a lower price everyday for the same product because I don't build in a free warranty replacement on every lens. I don't make the people who take meticulous care of their lenses subsidize the ones who abuse their lenses. Why even have microfiber cleaning cloths and AR lens cleaner if we are just going to replace the lenses anyway?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill212 View Post
    I just can't understand this logic. Let's say you sell running shoes. A customer comes back a year later after running everyday in the same shoes. They complain the soles have worn out on their shoes. Would you replace them under "warranty"? I should hope not. Unless you already overcharged them when they purchased the shoes.
    There are definitely shoes that have warranties on their soles, and yes they are more expensive and also better made.

    Also there are absolutely defective ARs I see every year, not abuse!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    There are definitely shoes that have warranties on their soles, and yes they are more expensive and also better made.
    I'll admit, I would only be running if someone was chasing me. Could you point me towards brands with sole warranties, which will replace soles or shoes for normal wear and tear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    Also there are absolutely defective ARs I see every year, not abuse!
    I didn't say there weren't defective ARs. I in fact stated in two different posts that defective ARs should be covered. That's the whole point of a warranty, to warrant defective products.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill212 View Post
    I'll admit, I would only be running if someone was chasing me. Could you point me towards brands with sole warranties, which will replace soles or shoes for normal wear and tear?



    I didn't say there weren't defective ARs. I in fact stated in two different posts that defective ARs should be covered. That's the whole point of a warranty, to warrant defective products.
    Well yeah I don't think a gnash in a lens should be considered defective, but excessive loss of hydrophobic quality or crazing should be. Maybe we aren't far off from each other's viewpoint!

    Btw I was talking about Redwing boots and shoes they are the best!

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    Btw I was talking about Redwing boots and shoes they are the best!
    Red Wing boots are great, I live not far from Red Wing. But unless I missed it somewhere else their warranty states

    "Footwear products bearing the “Red Wing” or “Red Wing Shoes” label are warranted against defects in workmanship and materials. If within 12 months of purchase, a defect occurs in a Red Wing branded footwear product as the result of normal use, Red Wing will repair the defect or exchange the product. Product failures caused by excessive or abusive wear conditions do not qualify for exchange or purchase credit."

    They can resole many of their boots, and like many other manufacturers of shoes with welted soles they charge a fee to do so. Red Wing charges $100.00 for a resole, and has a whole list of other options for repair charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    but excessive loss of hydrophobic quality or crazing
    How do we decide what is "excessive" loss of hydrophobic quality? or what caused the crazing? If the patient says they left them on the dashboard and they are crazed would you warrant that? What if they said as we have all heard, "I don't know, I just took them out of the case and they were like that"?I only use top end coatings and maybe I've just gotten lucky, or I don't do a high enough volume of sales to experience this, but I've never seen a lens craze out of the blue for no reason.

    When I see some patients lenses that are over 3 years old and look brand new, and then see some patients lenses with the same coatings and materials that are 1 year old that look like they clean them with steel wool, I think it is reasonable to assume improper lens care and not defective coatings.

  8. #33
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Kwill212, I apologize if my terminology was offensive. In my neck of the north it is considered common tongue.

    I wish we lived in a world where people took care of nice things. I do educate all patients on how to take care of their glasses properly, but unfortunately even the people who are meticulous in care can make a mistake or have an accident. I like the fact that I can offer those people some sympathy in the form of a warranty.

    If I was producing my own AR then I would be more open minded to changing the pricing set up, but I do not have control over such a facility. At this point, I am subject to the pricing of other labs and manufacturers. With that in mind, I could charge less for AR and not utilize the warranties already available to me, but don't think that would be a smart business move. Either way, that is not up to me.

    If it were up to me, the first thing I would do is drop Eyemed so that I didn't have to have the pricing I do now just to get a fraction of it per sale. For a retail with a full lab, we have had to jump through many hoops to combat profit loss from insurance, as I know many have, and giving up warranties to drop pricing would not be beneficial.

    I want to make sure I am always doing everything I can to help the patients we service and so far, offering 'included (free)' lens replacements in the cost of the AR, which we are very clear about, has kept all sides happy.

    That being said, I do come from the land of L.L.Bean, which will warranty everything, forever. For now.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  9. #34
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    Blue Jumper The basic AR coating layer is made with SIO2 ................................

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post

    Well yeah I don't think a gnash in a lens should be considered defective, but excessive loss of hydrophobic quality or crazing should be. Maybe we aren't far off from each other's viewpoint!


    The basic AR coating layer is made with SIO2, which is glass.

    There is nothing that will stick permanently to a layer of glass.

    Hydrophobic coating are known to wear off with action of rubbing and wiping.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    The basic AR coating layer is made with SIO2, which is glass.

    There is nothing that will stick permanently to a layer of glass.

    Hydrophobic coating are known to wear off with action of rubbing and wiping.
    Absolutely! And some work better than others.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    Kwill212, I apologize if my terminology was offensive. In my neck of the north it is considered common tongue.
    You didn't offend me personally, I don't need an apology. I just thought you might want to know that it's a derogatory term used to describe the Romani people, and maybe you should stop usuing it, now that you know. Hopefully this doesn't derail the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I wish we lived in a world where people took care of nice things. I do educate all patients on how to take care of their glasses properly, but unfortunately even the people who are meticulous in care can make a mistake or have an accident. I like the fact that I can offer those people some sympathy in the form of a warranty.

    If I was producing my own AR then I would be more open minded to changing the pricing set up, but I do not have control over such a facility. At this point, I am subject to the pricing of other labs and manufacturers. With that in mind, I could charge less for AR and not utilize the warranties already available to me, but don't think that would be a smart business move. Either way, that is not up to me.

    If it were up to me, the first thing I would do is drop Eyemed so that I didn't have to have the pricing I do now just to get a fraction of it per sale. For a retail with a full lab, we have had to jump through many hoops to combat profit loss from insurance, as I know many have, and giving up warranties to drop pricing would not be beneficial.

    I want to make sure I am always doing everything I can to help the patients we service and so far, offering 'included (free)' lens replacements in the cost of the AR, which we are very clear about, has kept all sides happy.
    I understand that we all come from different optical worlds and I'm not saying you are doing it wrong and my way is right. We all have to make the decisions that work best for our businesses. All I am saying is that if I were a consumer I would want the choice to be offered the AR SCRATCH warranty a la carte style. Defective coatings should obviously be covered for whatever period the manufacturer states. Obviously every business would have to work out their own formula.

    I am coming from the view point of private pay so it is going to differ greatly than managed care. I can also choose to charge patients any fee, or no fee, for replacements on a case by case basis. I imagine if I took managed care AR warranty costs would be pretty low on my list, right after which scotch should I drink next. Cheers.

  12. #37
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    We are about 50% private pay 50% vsp and "other" plans that just provide a set dollar amount not MVC.

    One thing that is commented on again and again by our clients and patients is how good our coatings are, both scratch and AR. I guess I've had such success doing things my way, I am extremely hesitant to change it.
    Last edited by Tallboy; 01-12-2018 at 04:44 PM.

  13. #38
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill212 View Post
    I am coming from the view point of private pay so it is going to differ greatly than managed care. I can also choose to charge patients any fee, or no fee, for replacements on a case by case basis. I imagine if I took managed care AR warranty costs would be pretty low on my list, right after which scotch should I drink next. Cheers.
    Slainte!
    My world is the managed care world, and we do offer an all inclusive warranty at a pretty darn good price. And, believe it or not, we are not losing money off warranty replacements. Which means that our patients are not abusing it. Of course, some do, but it doesn't matter which industry you are in, there will always be those types.

    Originally Posted by Tallboy
    Also there are absolutely defective ARs I see every year, not abuse!




    As for coatings, we stand behind them 100%. When it comes to defective coatings, there are so many variables that affect the process that it is maddening to find the cause of the defects. We went through that about 7 months ago. Our coatings looked great. Performed well. Passed the salt water boil, water angle, the whole shebang. Several months later, our patients started coming back complaining about the coating. After spending an eternity evaluating all of the returns, I started banging my head. Was it the DI quality? Was the ultrasonic too aggressive, or not aggressive enough? Gas mixture? We went through every item step by step with assistance from all of our vendors, we determined that it was the aggressive ultrasonic. Problem solved. Quality coatings again.

    Not.

    Several months later, after adjusting the ultrasonic, Lenses started coming back with a different issue. Separation. Degas oven? Makes sense. Not removing enough moisture from the lens prior to the AR stack. Yup, gotta be it. But no. Ultrasonic again. Not aggressive enough. It was't etching the hardcoat enough for the SI02 to fully adhere. OK, problem solved.

    Not.

    Turns out, it was the backside hardcoat the whole time. Lesson learned. Source a new coating. Life is now good again

    Moral of the story is, no matter how good the coating is, defects will occur. Stuff happens. Equipment malfunctions. We receive a bad batch of something. A tech has a bad day. Stuff. We lab rats spend a lot of time calibrating, testing, troubleshooting and second guessing everything. Our sole purpose is to provide the best quality products, and we lament when stuff like this happens, at least I do.

    When stuff like this happens, we will replace the product. Feedback from the field is crucial. As much as I hate hearing negative feedback, it is absolutely necessary to keep moving the ship forward. All I ask is that the poor performing products are returned to me for evaluation so that I can fix it, or the tech behind it. Don't throw it away. If you throw it away and not return them to me, how can I help you? What will I think after multiple occasions of 'defects'? The boy who cried wolf.......Don't just say it sucks and walk away. If I don't fix it, then yes, you can say it sucks, or even, you suck.

  14. #39
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    Blue Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post

    All I ask is that the poor performing products are returned to me for evaluation so that I can fix it, or the tech behind it. Don't throw it away. If you throw it away and not return them to me, how can I help you? What will I think after multiple occasions of 'defects'? The boy who cried wolf.......Don't just say it sucks and walk away. If I don't fix it, then yes, you can say it sucks, or even, you suck.

    ......................a superb post that should be taken to heart by everybody.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Turns out, it was the backside hardcoat the whole time. Lesson learned. Source a new coating. Life is now good again

    Moral of the story is, no matter how good the coating is, defects will occur. Stuff happens. Equipment malfunctions. We receive a bad batch of something. A tech has a bad day. Stuff. We lab rats spend a lot of time calibrating, testing, troubleshooting and second guessing everything. Our sole purpose is to provide the best quality products, and we lament when stuff like this happens, at least I do.

    When stuff like this happens, we will replace the product. Feedback from the field is crucial. As much as I hate hearing negative feedback, it is absolutely necessary to keep moving the ship forward. All I ask is that the poor performing products are returned to me for evaluation so that I can fix it, or the tech behind it. Don't throw it away. If you throw it away and not return them to me, how can I help you? What will I think after multiple occasions of 'defects'? The boy who cried wolf.......Don't just say it sucks and walk away. If I don't fix it, then yes, you can say it sucks, or even, you suck.
    Since I can't give rep, here's a +1
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post

    If I would be back in the retail, I would only sell AR coatings on CR39 lenses which are indifferent to an AR coating stripper, which will turn most other materials into a white opaque, unusable lens.

    .
    I was taught that a quality AR helps the transmission of light through high index lenses, improving vision, especially at night. Not to mention the reduction of glare. I wouldn't want to sell a high index lens without AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trina View Post
    I was taught that a quality AR helps the transmission of light through high index lenses, improving vision, especially at night. Not to mention the reduction of glare. I wouldn't want to sell a high index lens without AR.
    I all but make a person sign a waiver if they insist on getting ultra high index (1.67 and up) without an AR

    Some of those lenses will reflect close to 20% light without an AR

  18. #43
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    I believe this is why many companies don't offer hi-index finished product without AR. I will actually upgrade certain patients to a lens with AR so that it can be ordered stock, depending on the situation. It save the company money and puts the patient in a better product.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Yeah, under no circumstances will I dispense a lens 1.67 or higher without AR. It's like putting mirrors in front of the patient's eyes.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

  20. #45
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    It amazes me that we're even still having the discussion about the "option" of AR lenses for our glasses in America. Other countries get it, and it is as much a part of the finished glasses as is the lens material or frame. Think about it - if literally ANY camera company started selling lenses without AR on the lens elements, they would be out of business in under a year. It's just NOT done. Ever. And it doesn't matter if the lens costs $50, or $50,000. Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    It's just NOT done. Ever. And it doesn't matter if the lens costs $50, or $50,000. Why is that?
    For me the people who don't get AR are the greasy faced people who would rather not clean their glasses than see better, those who work in physical labor jobs or hot kitchens, and those who can't remember or be relied upon to take care of their lenses because of mental status. Children also often its easier to for go it, depending on the child.

    Also the cheap cheap people. Or the people who come in and "don't want any coating on my glasses". They are out there, but I agree AR is a huge benefit to my vision.

    My own brother forgoes AR because he would rather be able to clean his lenses with burlap than see better, and he ADMITS he sees better out of his AR lenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    If I would be back in the retail, I would only sell AR coatings on CR39 lenses which are indifferent to an AR coating stripper, which will turn most other materials into a white opaque, unusable lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trina View Post
    I was taught that a quality AR helps the transmission of light through high index lenses, improving vision, especially at night. Not to mention the reduction of glare. I wouldn't want to sell a high index lens without AR.
    I don't think the majority of us would sell high index lenses with AR either. Chris lives on a different optical planet than most of us, and would only sell flat tops instead of PALs as well.

  23. #48
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    For me the people who don't get AR are the greasy faced people who would rather not clean their glasses than see better, those who work in physical labor jobs or hot kitchens, and those who can't remember or be relied upon to take care of their lenses because of mental status. Children also often its easier to for go it, depending on the child.

    Also the cheap cheap people. Or the people who come in and "don't want any coating on my glasses". They are out there, but I agree AR is a huge benefit to my vision.

    My own brother forgoes AR because he would rather be able to clean his lenses with burlap than see better, and he ADMITS he sees better out of his AR lenses.
    +1 I will often use these examples when people ask why anyone would go without. The other big one in my region is people who work on the ocean. The salt air is deadly to most coatings.

    Working with the people who have had bad experiences is the hardest. Once someone has had a cheap and/ or defective AR it is hard to help them realize that premium coatings are completely different.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  24. #49
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    America seems to have an excuse for everything. We're so backwards in our thinking in so many ways. I always find it funny how far out of our way we go to talk ourselves out of quality, durability, best form, etc. at every possible opportunity. Our eyes aren't unique - but we routinely treat eye health care (and AR in this particular case) like disposable rubbish. We're just going to throw it away, or our kid will destroy it, or the dog will eat it, or whatever....blah blah blah. I just laugh and shake my head.

  25. #50
    Ghost in the OptiMachine OptiBoard Silver Supporter Quince's Avatar
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    I'd like to see an AR last more than 6 months for a lobster fisherman. Show me it, and I will sell it.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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