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Thread: PDs

  1. #1
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    PDs

    I know this has been discussed somewhere before on the board but I couldn't seem to find it. Are there any other offices that charge for distributing PDs for patients? We have had a surplus of patients recently asking for measurements so they are able to order their frames online- obviously taking away business. To our knowledge- it isn't required in our state to release PDs when patients ask for their prescription. We have thrown around the idea of charging patients. According to Warbly Parker, they reimburse up to $50 to the patient for PD measurements. I don't know how that is tracked exactly. Just wanted to get some thoughts on this and see if anyone else was doing it!

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    Wow! $50! I'm shocked!

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Here's a few yards of discussion from last fall.

    Not many posters on this site to my knowledge are charging for it. The Massachusetts Optometric Assoc. says to give binocular distance and near PD's to all who request them.

    The problem is have you now inherited all the potential problems if the glasses don't work? After all they paid you...

    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...harging+PD%27s

  4. #4
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    Careful here. If you work for an OD or OMD and use any type of autorefractor, it takes a PD. This is now part of their health records, and they are entitled to them with there records if requested.

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    I Wouldn't rely on an auto refractor pd. Suppose the patient moves their head when the refractor moves from one eye to the other. .... it is not a measurement worthy of a final prescription, just like an auto refraction is not a releasable prescription.

    If I did release it because push came to shove, I would label it "auto refractor P D"

  6. #6
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    I've had a few patients coming in with Pds on their Rx. When I look at it, it is just a distance binocular PD. If I used that Pd and followed the Rx, it wouldn't work with certain lenses. Who would be at fault? I would assume it would be the Dr, but you know that we would be the ones the patient would come back to complaining. Now in this office, we don't have a lot of outside Rxs and certainly not with Pds on them. Not much of an issue here... I've been doing this for a long time and know what I'm doing, but I can see some young optician following it and making a pair with the wrong measurement. (Remember here in PA we are not a licensed state, sad to say) I don't believe the Pd should be on the Rx for that reason. How many times has a patient come out of the exam room expecting to order one type of lens and then after talking to the optician fine out that another type would be better? Happens all the time.

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    [QUOTE=fjpod;523077
    If I did release it because push came to shove, I would label it "auto refractor P D"[/QUOTE]
    +1

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    If px's have purchased eyeglasses from us in the past, we'll usually give it to them without assuming any responsibility for the glasses. I make sure to tell px that alot of opticals are less willing to work on frames that are internet dispensed. If they've never purchased I'll tell them between 25-30 bucks for it.

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    Redhot Jumper Measuring the PD is part of an opticians service..........................

    If anybody wants you to supply him or her, is because they want to buy elsewhere, at a supplier that either can not measure the Pd, or is to far away to do it.

    Measuring the PD is part of an opticians service. As this is a service you should be entitled to charge whatever it is worth to you.

    The most likely supplier is an online optical or some discount chain, who can not do it.

    The trend is not going away but will be steadily increasing over the next few years and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

    So at least offer to charge for a service you provide without making the sale.

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    I just take the PD and give it with the discussion beforehand that if they are buying online I want nothing to do with the "aftercare". I will not be held responsible for the pd and I will not check the rx or fit the glasses, for free.
    I will do it for $50, if they want me to.
    I have not had anyone return. Win win for me. I don't have time for that.

  11. #11
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    Careful here. If you work for an OD or OMD and use any type of autorefractor, it takes a PD. This is now part of their health records, and they are entitled to them with there records if requested.
    Yes, they're entitled to their records, under whatever law your state has.

    That DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO RELEASE THE P.D. ON DEMAND, any more than you have to release the C/D ratio or the pupillary diameter on request.

    We are only legally bound to give copies of RXs on demand.

    All you have to say is "No. It's against our office policy."

    The records release process is quite different, takes awhile, incurs a fee, and certainly shouldn't involve "just a p.d" but ALL records from the BEGINNING OF TIME.

    It is also something that has a legal impact on your practice, too. Usually when patients request their records they're going to sue or transfer care. No laughing matter, that.

    If someone is going to ask for a records release from my office, it's a legal matter that's going to involve certified mail and a nice letter, etc.

    It will also signify that they are no longer patients in my practice.

    But I'll be darned if I tell the DIY-for-everything-but-for-some-reason-not-the-p.d-as-if-that-matters-a-heck-of-a-lot-regarding-their-stupid-glasses-person "I can't give you the p.d., but you have a legal right to your records, so take that approach."

    I'm not their daddy.
    Last edited by drk; 04-20-2016 at 04:18 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mervinek View Post
    I've had a few patients coming in with Pds on their Rx. When I look at it, it is just a distance binocular PD. If I used that Pd and followed the Rx, it wouldn't work with certain lenses. Who would be at fault? I would assume it would be the Dr, but you know that we would be the ones the patient would come back to complaining. Now in this office, we don't have a lot of outside Rxs and certainly not with Pds on them. Not much of an issue here... I've been doing this for a long time and know what I'm doing, but I can see some young optician following it and making a pair with the wrong measurement. (Remember here in PA we are not a licensed state, sad to say) I don't believe the Pd should be on the Rx for that reason. How many times has a patient come out of the exam room expecting to order one type of lens and then after talking to the optician fine out that another type would be better? Happens all the time.
    Unless you have a law that says p.d. is part of the Rx in your state, I wouldn't follow a p.d. anymore than any other recommendation for, say, a photochromic or seg type. That's fair game.

  13. #13
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    If anybody wants you to supply him or her, is because they want to buy elsewhere, at a supplier that either can not measure the Pd, or is to far away to do it.

    Measuring the PD is part of an opticians service. As this is a service you should be entitled to charge whatever it is worth to you.

    The most likely supplier is an online optical or some discount chain, who can not do it.

    The trend is not going away but will be steadily increasing over the next few years and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

    So at least offer to charge for a service you provide without making the sale.
    Wrong. You can decline to be involved in online do-it-yourself opticianry and be just fine in the long run.

    I wouldn't paint this crazy scenario, Chris, where opticians are forced to sell themselves as p.d. takers to buy themselves stale bread. You can't predict the future any more than I can. You are mongering fear.

    Hell, there's i-phone autorefractors, now. What's my job for the future, Chris? Hold the phone for them for $20?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Yes, they're entitled to their records, under whatever law your state has. That DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO RELEASE THE P.D. ON DEMAND, any more than you have to release the C/D ratio or the pupillary diameter on request. We are only legally bound to give copies of RXs on demand. The records release process is quite different, takes awhile, incurs a fee, and certainly shouldn't involve "just a p.d" but ALL records from the BEGINNING OF TIME. It is also something that has a legal impact on your practice, too. Usually when patients request their records they're going to sue or transfer care. No laughing matter, that. If someone is going to ask for a records release from my office, it's a legal matter that's going to involve certified mail and a nice letter, etc. It will also signify that they are no longer patients in my practice.
    Now that's customer service. Someone asks for their record, and you dump them as a patient. That makes sense to me...

  15. #15
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I don't have customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Unless you have a law that says p.d. is part of the Rx in your state, I wouldn't follow a p.d. anymore than any other recommendation for, say, a photochromic or seg type. That's fair game.
    PDs are not specifically mentioned however the wording on the books could be interpreted to include them, if one should argue.

    http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/04...23/s23.72.html
    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Yes, they're entitled to their records, under whatever law your state has.

    That DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO RELEASE THE P.D. ON DEMAND, any more than you have to release the C/D ratio or the pupillary diameter on request.

    We are only legally bound to give copies of RXs on demand.

    All you have to say is "No. It's against our office policy."

    The records release process is quite different, takes awhile, incurs a fee, and certainly shouldn't involve "just a p.d" but ALL records from the BEGINNING OF TIME.

    It is also something that has a legal impact on your practice, too. Usually when patients request their records they're going to sue or transfer care. No laughing matter, that.

    If someone is going to ask for a records release from my office, it's a legal matter that's going to involve certified mail and a nice letter, etc.

    It will also signify that they are no longer patients in my practice.

    But I'll be darned if I tell the DIY-for-everything-but-for-some-reason-not-the-p.d-as-if-that-matters-a-heck-of-a-lot-regarding-their-stupid-glasses-person "I can't give you the p.d., but you have a legal right to your records, so take that approach."

    I'm not their daddy.
    You may not be their Daddy but methinks that you are clearly putting your own pecuniary interest ahead of your patient best interests. I wonder how you would co-operate with a colleague in the medical co-management of a patient?

    After all, PD's are small potatoes and really no more a medical record than shoe size.

  18. #18
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    1. Youthinks wrong. I've got enough money. Nevertheless I'm sure the patient is putting their pecuniary interest in front of mine, anyway. So that would be even-steven, right? The give and take of free market economics, no?

    2. But if you're going to hit me with "you're a doctor, so you have a higher standard" then I'm going to use that power to do what's in the patient's best interest.

    3.What is the "patient's best interests", Dick? You tell me. Because I think that's a matter of opinion, and I have one as well as you. So, that dog won't hunt, will it?

    4. Likewise, if the argument is "the p.d. is in the medical record ergo it must be released" then it can be countered with "releasing medical records is a different ball game than handing out a p.d written down on the back of a business card". That simple. The argument can't be argued as a one-way street, now, can it?
    Last edited by drk; 04-20-2016 at 06:48 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I don't have customers.
    respectfully disagree Doc. If you sell eyewear, they are "customers", as eyewear is a commodity. As far as I know, only contacts are regulated by federal regulations, not eyeglasses, just guidelines, same as buying a bag of pretzels.

    Ask the NC state senators that are working to undo licensing, mine included, saying people can get their questions answered on Yelp or google. I'm sure the "E" will guide them with the "facts"on their website.

    Was just stating fact of PD being in chart, never said to offer it up.

  20. #20
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    Redhot Jumper So ..................drk your future might still be safe for a while ................

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post

    I wouldn't paint this crazy scenario, Chris, where opticians are forced to sell themselves as p.d. takers to buy themselves stale bread. You can't predict the future any more than I can. You are mongering fear.

    Hell, there's i-phone autorefractors, now.
    What's my job for the future, Chris? Hold the phone for them for $20?

    Drk..............I am fluent in 4 languages and also grew up in Europe where I learned the profession.

    So my general interest goes a little further than just Canada and the USA on the North American Continent.

    For 30 years I have exported my products into every Continent. I have also learned that the North American Continent is also the training ground for some of the major optical corporations.

    These corporations have one goal in mind and that is total world wide domination and control of the optical business and its professional politics, and they have doubled and tripled their efforts over the last 10 years on a worldwide basis.

    Just as an example, in India there are a few thousand unemployed young people being trained to refract the millions of people in outlying areas that have no access to glasses.

    So ..................drk your future might still be safe for a while, but a destructive avalanche to get rid of the conventional optical retail market as we have been used to, has started to roll.

  21. #21
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    respectfully disagree Doc. If you sell eyewear, they are "customers", as eyewear is a commodity. As far as I know, only contacts are regulated by federal regulations, not eyeglasses, just guidelines, same as buying a bag of pretzels.

    Ask the NC state senators that are working to undo licensing, mine included, saying people can get their questions answered on Yelp or google. I'm sure the "E" will guide them with the "facts"on their website.

    Was just stating fact of PD being in chart, never said to offer it up.
    Glasses are not commodities. The lenses at least are custom made and custom fitted medical devices, prescription only and regulated in many states. I'm surprised you think they are commodities.
    http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/commodity.asp

    What is a 'Commodity'

    A commodity is a basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type. Commodities are most often used as inputs in the production of other goods or services. The quality of a given commodity may differ slightly, but it is essentially uniform across producers. When they are traded on an exchange, commodities must also meet specified minimum standards, also known as a basis grade.



  22. #22
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Drk..............I am fluent in 4 languages and also grew up in Europe where I learned the profession.

    So my general interest goes a little further than just Canada and the USA on the North American Continent.

    For 30 years I have exported my products into every Continent. I have also learned that the North American Continent is also the training ground for some of the major optical corporations.

    These corporations have one goal in mind and that is total world wide domination and control of the optical business and its professional politics, and they have doubled and tripled their efforts over the last 10 years on a worldwide basis.

    Just as an example, in India there are a few thousand unemployed young people being trained to refract the millions of people in outlying areas that have no access to glasses.

    So ..................drk your future might still be safe for a while, but a destructive avalanche to get rid of the conventional optical retail market as we have been used to, has started to roll.
    Maybe, but anyone knows that history doesn't predict the future perfectly.

    I'm glad that some far-flung country is trying to raise its health care standards. But I'm not in India.

    As to the global players, they are powerful indeed, but if you follow American politics, for example, you'll see there is resistance. What happens, who knows?

  23. #23
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    Redhot Jumper Opticians and Optometrists have been the optical retailers forever ..................

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post

    Maybe, but anyone knows that history doesn't predict the future perfectly.

    I'm glad that some far-flung country is trying to raise its health care standards. But I'm not in India.

    As to the global players, they are powerful indeed, but if you follow American politics, for example, you'll see there is resistance. What happens, who knows?

    This is not history, this has never happened before. however it is totally new in the optical retail field.

    Opticians and Optometrists have been the optical retailers forever, and their largest and now giant suppliers are doing their best to weed them out by entering the retail field big time, or at least push them into a far and unimportant corner.

    This is history made now.

  24. #24
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Chris, I'm not a retailer.

    I don't sell commodities.

    I don't have customers.

    Getting the point?

    Here's something as boring and mundane and run-of-the-mill as can be, but WE ALL DO IT so I highlight what we do, so all you naysayers can have a little professional pride.

    Job tray 1 on my desk: 4^ BU OD, 4^ BD OS.
    Job tray 2 on my desk: a special order double-bar frame with a vinylon strap for some fatty head that keeps corroding silicone saddle bridges.

    None of that is routine stuff, but it is for you and I. Because we are vision care specialists.

  25. #25
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Yes, they're entitled to their records, under whatever law your state has.

    That DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO RELEASE THE P.D. ON DEMAND, any more than you have to release the C/D ratio or the pupillary diameter on request.

    We are only legally bound to give copies of RXs on demand.

    All you have to say is "No. It's against our office policy."

    The records release process is quite different, takes awhile, incurs a fee, and certainly shouldn't involve "just a p.d" but ALL records from the BEGINNING OF TIME.

    It is also something that has a legal impact on your practice, too. Usually when patients request their records they're going to sue or transfer care. No laughing matter, that.

    If someone is going to ask for a records release from my office, it's a legal matter that's going to involve certified mail and a nice letter, etc.

    It will also signify that they are no longer patients in my practice.

    But I'll be darned if I tell the DIY-for-everything-but-for-some-reason-not-the-p.d-as-if-that-matters-a-heck-of-a-lot-regarding-their-stupid-glasses-person "I can't give you the p.d., but you have a legal right to your records, so take that approach."

    I'm not their daddy.
    The PD Nazi! "NO PD for YOU!"

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