Comparing Generators

[Joann Raytar]

I have a friend who is looking to set up a surfacing lab at his company. They plan on running 50 pair a day consisting of all indices except glass.

The two units they are considering are a Gerber SGX Turbo and a Coburn 108. To the wholesalers among us, which would you go with; there is a $15K - $20 difference between the two rebuilt units they are looking at? I know the Coburn 2113 used to have a slide that went up to a 30D curve (I could be wrong about the actual maximum curve it will cut.) Does the 108 have the same extended capabilities? If the company plans on growth within a years time and plans on cutting a great deal of poly, would it be worth the expense to go with the SGX now?

If you wouldn't go with either of these generators, what would you go with? Don't forget, we are trying not to break the bank on the generator; we also need cylinder machines, laps, a coater and would like to upgrade the finishing equipment.

[JRS]

Unless they ONLY run glass, the 108 is a poor choice. Look around for a good Coburn IQ generator. The lab will be better off.

[Jubilee]

While I may not be a wholesaler, I have had a lot of experience on using both the coburn 108, and the SGX. At first I wasn't a big fan of the SGX, I preferred the straight forward mechanical process of the 108 that was easy to adjust, didn't have to worry about all the different comp menus, the several different motors, and the computerized boards...the 108 is a machine that lasts, and lasts....with relatively no complex maintanence or repairs.

But when it comes to processing capability, the SGX has the 108 beat hands down. The SGX is basically a push button operation, no huge grinding areas, with water flowing through the boot, making lots of noise while sweeping that lens back and forth. Instead the sgx takes the information from the calc program, digests it, you type in the job number assigned by the program and verify that the the info is correct. Place the lens inside (we use the seg down method to make things easier) and push the start button and walk away...no baby sitting.

The 108 really could only go as low as a 300 base curve without doing the block off on the 90 trick and cross cutting it to get the flatter curve the cross seemed to be able to do. The max was in the 11 range, but if the practice is planning on doing extreme minus scripts, it may not be enough. The SGX is also capable of cutting laps out of foam to create whatever tool you may need so you don't need to spend the money on the lesser used ranges.
And if you are doing that high of scripts, you will probably want to be able to crib to allow for better water and polish flow.

The SGX doesn't have the water waste and coolant to deal with, no swarf to clog the boot, and no prism rings to line up before generating. The SGX is hooked into a vac, and has a chiller coil right over the lens area. Key things are to make sure the cutter is flush in the collet, and secure, and that the chuck is in good condition.

Cons, more $$$, heavy use of computerized (basically it runs off of a modified 386dx board) and electronics make it a lot more falliable and could result in longer and costlier down times. You have to have someone who really knows the machine or can grasp the maintanence manual (which actually are very good with basic troubleshooting guides and has pictures for actual replacement processes) for all the sub menus and programs. You have probably notice various threads on deblocking issues etc, that stem from incorrect values in some of these areas. Basically you can define how much you want to take off, how fast the the cutter spins, what amount you want taken off in the last sweep, cribbing, fining, film, and pad comps...the whole shebang, so understanding the physics behind how the machine operates is very helpful in troubleshooting if any of these parameters may be out of sync.

Just my opinion on the whole thing. I have used a 108ct, 108bp, 113, 2113 and the SGX... my least favorite, the 2113 cause we couldn't keeps ours up for more than a month without something going wrong ( oh I loved trying to set those cruves manually while it slides along the path)..and my favorite is the SGX cause where I work, the ability to set it and forget it till the door raises back up means I am available to work on getting other stuff out. ;)

Cassandra

[Joann Raytar]

Jubilee said:

and my favorite is the SGX cause where I work, the ability to set it and forget it till the door raises back up means I am available to work on getting other stuff out. ;)

Cassandra

That is one of the things I was wondering about. Would not having to have a employee dedicated to standing in front of a machine balance out the extra cost? I am also concerned about high index breakage due to the amount of heat the old manual generators kick up.

JRS,
My only concern about the Coburn IQ is the chipper. I remember the chipper not doing a very good job at cutting poly shavings small enough causing the chipper/vacuum to break down every now and then. I also remember having to sit at an airport for an hour waiting for the part to arrive. Down time is a consideration as well.

[Jeff Trail]

I might as well jump in here as well...if you are talking WHOLESALE production and not "retail" you would be far better off skipping most of the ones so far listed and get something more a long the lines of a LOH V50 to get you started or the V75 ...than you do not have to up date..The first year out of the box it always seems everyone I knew that got a LOH had some electrical problems...after that first year these machines are work horses..for the money and time saved and amount produced they are well worth the investment (even the used machines).. chances are most of the used machines were from labs that were upgrading to the CTP machines (LOH) V90 V125 etc....
In the SGX in after market I usually see most of the machines came out of "retail" labs, maybe Jubilee takes care of her stuff but a lot of the ones I seen are ragged out..people did not maintain the equipment, misused and down right just screwed them up..so if you do get an SGX make SURE you know the machine and if at all possible get it with a warranty .. I have seen a number of people get burnt in the after market with the SGX..It may be a good machine working but AFTER MARKET you need to be able to check it out..
The coburn line..Jubilee mentioned about all of them.. and I seen she had a problem with the 2113 :) I have a couple of 2113's and one of them is the 2nd one off the line from coburn!!! ..that's right it was number 2 in production!! The guys at coburn always tell me that when I give the ser.# ...I have not really had much problems with it till I replaced the boards last year...not bad for a generator that has worked every day in wholesale for hmmm..since 1989 or so? :)
..a side note, Jubilee working the slides on that 2113, the problem was in the servo's.. did you flip them and back flush the system? Chances are if you would have changed the hydraulic fluid and filters and back flushed the servo's your problem would have stopped.. also if you change the diameter of the wheel you can go WAY past the range of the diamond you run on a regular basis..no more back sweeps..:) I know a number of times I was called in to "replace" the servo's because the slides were "sticking" or not working..everytime I fixed it with back flushing and changing the fluid.. big difference than dropping $2,000 on new servo's...
Back to it...if you want a generator to do the odd ball stuff..I do a lot of plus cylinder and bi-convex (low vision and dive masks) and the OLD work horse of the 108 can NOT be beat for ease of use in the complicated weird stuff..shifting the motor on the swing arm is simple.. simple to use and a HUGE range in power.. for every day simple production the 108 is not going to fly though.. if you do glass the 108CT though is a great machine..
Since you are able to depreciate the equipment and you want something that can handle your load but be able to expand as you grow, I still think more a long the lines of the LOH is the way to go...
BTW I have owned or used about a zillion generators OK it maybe a slight stretch of numbers..the 108,108ct,108rb,churon (going WAY back)113,2113,optronics vista,SGX, CG1, CG1S, 112HW, 113HW, optek line, gerber wholesale line , LOH V50, V75, V90, V120CTP ..and some others I can't remember right now..
If it were me, and I were starting over in wholesale I would think of going with a LOH and thinking ahead and having a machine to handle it.. One thing to remember is that this equipment in resale really DROPS down.. so what usually happens in a wholesale lab is you keep the first generator and than add another that is an over flow machine..not as expensive but in the long run it messes up your work flow and twice the trouble to maintain etc., etc... not counting that when you go more manual you need more employee's..you figure with a more advanced wholesale machine you can add work flow without having to add employee's..
You'll probably see about a different bit of advice from everybody..just like patternless edgers, the ones they recommend is probably what they have or used..if possible try to see the machine work or see it before buying it and check it out..or get some type of "limited" warranty...

Jeff "I remember when I first started..oh what fun" Trail

[JRS]

To JO -
yes, in the beginning there were chipper issues. Not true on the newer versions (both in design and the method of use by the IQ software). Unfortunately, this is one reason people have bad opinions about items - that's how "they" remember the item. Didn't we all go through this initially with POLY products and AR lenses? They once were bad - so it's assumed they still are?


To Jeff -
It was my understanding it was a small retail type environment or I would have preferred a LOH as my first choice. I still would not use a 108 unless I was going to run only glass and/or cr-39 lenses.

[Jeff Trail]

JRS

I seen the number 50 jobs a day and more down the road...that is beyond most of the "retail" type set ups.. oh they may do it for a while but those do not have the "hmmpf" a good LOH will give you .. One thing about it I ususlly think of is that by using a better generator you can keep your labor pool smaller and let the machine do more work for you ..so if you knock out one employee than that savings alone would make up the cost difference ...
One thing that is a dead give away as to the value of this machine... try finding a used one someone wants to get rid of :) Look around and see how many others are out there on the used market..
PLUS you start with a lower end like the V50 those can be upgraded to the next level down the road for a LOT less than getting a second whole generator ...
Most people who ask me about "putting in a lab" and the volume is 50 and 75 pair a day...you need to forget "retail" and look at it as wholesale volume and buy accordingly .. our wholesale stuff stands up longer and is more durable and produce more volume in less time.. might not be as "pretty" as a patternless system for an office.. but hey lab work is about getting down and dirty NOT being pretty :) Maybe that is why we are "lab rats" and not "lab babies"
The biggest mistake I see most often is they worry more about money than how it produces and out grow the existing system way to fast and add little things here and there and more people.. my opinion is this is a more costly mistake and you end up pay more money long term by doing it this way :)
Oh well we all had to learn the hard way as well..usually hard and "expensive" are both the same thing in this case..

Jeff "maybe we been around TO long JR" Trail :)

[JRS]

Yep. If you want to consider "maybe running 50 JPD" as too excessive for a retailer - I know some retailer running from 100 to 4000 JPD, then we'll call them a wholesaler. In that case, I'd pick a LOH machine any day. But even then... a well maintained IQ will run 25 Jobs per hour, so I'd have to get fairly large to justify the cost difference for a LOH. Regardless, cost not inclusive, the LOH is a more robust and diverse piece of equipment.

As for being around too long (optically) - got you beat by at least 15 years.

[Joann Raytar]

Thanks for the smack in the back of the head guys!

Any of you have an idea where to start looking for a decent generator? I hear there are a couple of guys in NY state who do a good job rebuilding used machines.

[JRS]

I'd start by calling Gerber and LOH direct. There have been quite a few models traded in for udgraded versions this last year. So there are re-builts around.
You could certainly post "wanted" on Optiboard with your friends contact number.