We dismissed our first customer for using us to buy on-line.

**Craig** · 10-13-2015, 06:14 AM

We just had a client buy a second frame on the internet that he saw at our location and ask us to put lenses in it for him. They are drill mount Lindberg Spirits.
We did it the first time because we found out and where so shocked we did not know what to do so we put a note int he system that he pay an extra $100 for anything we do going forward.

He came back in with another frame and wanted us to switch from one frame to the other for him and he is having an issue with something else. He was being a little loud when we had a busy store so they took the order with no money until I got back to town and we had a chance to discuss our options.

We decided the best action was to return everything to him and he can go to the internet for his lenses as well.

We welcome the age of the internet sales but they must also deal with internet service levels and we cannot be a part of both worlds for them.

My staff was very happy to see him go and now we know what to do in the future.

**mervinek** · 10-13-2015, 07:57 AM

I had a patient in the office shopping for silhouettes. She's been a long time customer and has been looking at them for a while. She told us that she's going to wait a little longer to order since they are expensive. A few days later I get a call from her that she found them on Amazon for less and can we put the lenses in them. We said yes at your own risk. Then she told me she wasn't sure what size to order. So when I asked her if she wanted me to do all the work in fitting her and write everything down so she can go and order it from someone else, she was actually embarrassed about it (as she should be). Turns out with the insurance she has, it would have cost her less to order the complete pair from us anyway. The difference in the cost of the frame was $40 more from us. Since her insurance only covered a complete pair and not lenses only, she would pay more to order it online and have us put lenses in it. geesh. People.

**Dirk** · 10-13-2015, 08:03 AM

It is only fair to ask a reasonable service fee, I totally agree. Personally I don't have a problem with fitting lenses in a internet bought frame, that is just reality. As long as the client understands that any (after sales) service you provide has a price, and that I do not provide any warranty for the frame.
Customers tend to forget that all the''free'' service we provide is included in the price of the products we sell.

And when they get loud or otherwise unappreciative of your service then you certainly have the right to escort them out.

**mervinek** · 10-13-2015, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dirk

It is only fair to ask a reasonable service fee, I totally agree. Personally I don't have a problem with fitting lenses in a internet bought frame, that is just reality. As long as the client understands that any (after sales) service you provide has a price, and that I do not provide any warranty for the frame.
Customers tend to forget that all the''free'' service we provide is included in the price of the products we sell.

And when they get loud or otherwise unappreciative of your service then you certainly have the right to escort them out.

I don't have a problem putting lenses into a frame purchased elsewhere (as you said, as long as they understand no warranty on frame). What burns me up is when they come in and you work with them, spend time with them and help them select the frame and then they purchase it online. I've been "showroomed" three times and it burns me up to do the work when someone else is benefiting. Two people that did that purchased Tom Ford frames online for almost what we paid for them. No way could we have done those prices. Frames seemed fine. They did not look like knock offs to me. I worked with one person for about an hour! After we used her insurance for the lenses, we prob made about $25. Every now and then she comes back in for an office visit or something and tells me how much she loves her glasses. Great.

**optical24/7** · 10-13-2015, 09:11 AM

Frames are the new optical internet commodity. It (the net) will do the same for frames that happened with CL's 20 years ago. Prepare for smaller margins on most all frames. You'll need to sell service/warranty packages separately. Get ready for it.

**Tallboy** · 10-13-2015, 09:13 AM

I am very lucky that this has happened to me only a hand full of times. Full price on lenses. I have even been asked to "help" them choose frame shapes and sizes for a frame. They have always come back to buy from me in the end, but I would absolutely charge a fee if they wanted consultation or repair.

Good for you Craig. Can't believe they would come to a place like yours and do that.

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 09:36 AM

I agree that it is very much like the history of contact lenses, although more like RGP contacts which always have considerably more involved servicing than soft, which are truly and nearly completely commoditized. The only people who can't make money on fitting contacts these days are the ones who have little or no service and fitting fees. Similarly, anyone who gives away spectacle fitting services for free (or worse, even advertises that), will get squeezed and be unhappy. You don't just penalize a person a hundred dollars, if that's what your services are worth, that's what you charge everyone for dispensing. If you combine the dispensing fee with the frame price, fine, but be prepared to separate them for the 'net shoppers or for anyone who feels your "prices" are too high. And I do not deny services. If the frame breaks, I replace it for my normal fee, or they can try getting it fixed on line. (good luck with that)

**Barry Santini** · 10-13-2015, 09:38 AM

I understand point on both sides of this discussion. Even if we are "shopped", we'll glaze the frame, align and adjust it at delivery, but inform them that any services needed will be billed a la carte, as needed. Then it simply depends on whether they feel the a la carte fees are worth it.

But we still 'welcome' them. That, I feel, is my job as their local eyecare services provider.

Barry

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 09:49 AM

An interesting idea, but possibly more annoying if you actually do charge separately to adjust or align a frame every time for that frame. You have to track the frame in your system to differentiate it from others. Really, I see this more like the patient using their old frame. There is a single dispensing fee for that too, for the life of the Rx.

**Barry Santini** · 10-13-2015, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy

An interesting idea, but possibly more annoying if you actually do charge separately to adjust or align a frame every time for that frame. You have to track the frame in your system to differentiate it from others. Really, I see this more like the patient using their old frame. There is a single dispensing fee for that too, for the life of the Rx.

Well then, Dr Stacy, how to you explain/substantiate the difference in frame price from your price to the lower online price?

B

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 09:59 AM

The very topic of this thread. I provide continuing service for the life of the Rx. My frame "price" is actually composed of the material (the frame itself, which may be more, less or the same as he can get on line, without any services other than shipping), plus the dispensing fee which includes frame selection, measurements, initial fitting, followup adjustments, replacement of screws and pads, for the life of the Rx). If he obtains the frame on line, that's ok by me. It reduces my warranty work exposure, but allows me to charge the dispensing fee if he obtains the lenses from me. By the way, the other situation is where he wants to "buy" my frame and get the lenses elswhere. I don't sell frames. I fit them. I charge the dispensing fee there too, and perform all associated services including pre-adjusting the frame. Any problem with the optics and he gets to solve that with his lens supplier. If I did the exam, checking the Rx one time is included.

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 10:03 AM

I'm reminded of an old O.D. Joe Farrington R.I.P. who told me when I first came into practice that we should completely separate our materials from our services, providing materials at our cost. He personally did this, and had a lot of explaining to do to his patients. But he was right, 45 years ago. He predicted this problem in a way. Now I'm not anywhere near as "pure" as old Joe was, and the realities of being in a more retail location keep me from separating out everything for everybody, but I'm trying to go more in that direction.

**Barry Santini** · 10-13-2015, 10:05 AM

Contractors, BTW, typically markup materials by 20%, not ZERO.

B

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 10:06 AM

Which is far more honest than the way optical goods are typically "marked up".

**AngeHamm** · 10-13-2015, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy

Which is far more honest than the way optical goods are typically "marked up".

I don't think "honest" is really the right term here at all. Businesses have to mark up goods from wholesale to retail in every industry to cover overhead. Whether that mark-up comes in the form of a cost-based formula or a fee schedule of services has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty. Our job is to balance client service (including reasonable prices) with keeping our business healthy (a reasonable profit margin). Marking up my product isn't in any way dishonest to my patients.

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 10:45 AM

With commodities, 100% of the gross profit comes from the mark up, except perhaps shipping.

With services, 100% of the gross profit comes from the service fee.

With mixed products and services, like optical, both are "in there" and one measure of honesty might be how much of each is revealed to the purchaser.

There is no question that soft contacts have become fully commoditized and frames and spec. lenses are not far behind.

The word "free" should be replaced with "included". Free is a lie except in cases of philanthropy where tax or other financial advantages in the giving do not exist.

**AngeHamm** · 10-13-2015, 11:01 AM

I don't disagree, Doc, but on a publicly-searchable forum, implying that our markups and fees are in some way dishonest is asking for consumer trouble. Different folks pay the bills in different ways.

I definitely agree that the word "free" should be replaced with "included." Small bits of verbiage like that can make a huge impact for customer perception (hence my discomfort with "honest"). Much like I never refer to any insurance product allowance as "your insurance covers $XXX," but as "your insurance contributes $XXX."

**fjpod** · 10-13-2015, 11:22 AM

Generally, if patients bring us frames from another source, new or old (but not ours) we build in a charge to the lenses, that anticipates that we will have to work with that frame, adjust it and maybe repair it in the future. We make it clear that we do not warranty the frame, but we will help the patient "take care of it". I'm not saying our way is the only "right" way, but one way or another consumers have to realize that they are paying for service somewhere along the line. Commodity or not.

**Dr. Bill Stacy** · 10-13-2015, 12:18 PM

And perhaps I should have used the term "transparency" instead of "honesty". If provider 1,2 and 3 charge $500 to provide a pair of glasses, and 1 says $200 for the materials and $300 for the services while 2 says $500 for the materials and the services are free, and 3 says the glasses are free but I charge $500 for services, who's being transparent?

Do we trust that our customers understand how our economy works, or do we think they would be shocked to learn we make a living doing this?

**CGalloway** · 10-13-2015, 12:26 PM

Kudos to you for the dismissal of that patient, wish I was allowed to do the same.

With respect to mark-up, consumers have a right to shop where they want and can price shop the same frame among many offices if they wish to take the time. In my opinion, they can buy from a shop down the street or online if they wish, of course there is no warranty with me for the frame then. Shopping a physical store or online makes no difference. The mark-up can vary from place to place as it can with all consumer goods. You have to also realize that although 100% of the profit comes from the mark-up...profit is not 100%. You still have to deduct operating expense and cost of goods from that mark-up.

I don't penalize a patient in any way for purchasing a frame online but I do reserve the right to use said frame or not. Some frames are just not of good enough quality to go through the manufacturing process and I identify those before the sale of lenses. Now my issue is with those who buy the completye pair online then want me to verify their accuracy and adjust them for free.

**CME4SPECS** · 10-13-2015, 01:14 PM

I could care less if someone brings me a frame they got online, or from a competitor or from the thrift shop. It's my own fault if I was unable to satisfy them with my selection or my prices.
Why on earth would you throw someone out for wanting to purchase lenses from you? Makes no sense to me!
Don't get me wrong, I make it difficult for you to use my inventory to go elsewhere and purchase.
I am grateful I get the chance to do the lenses.

**drk** · 10-13-2015, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by optical24/7

Frames are the new optical internet commodity. It (the net) will do the same for frames that happened with CL's 20 years ago. Prepare for smaller margins on most all frames. You'll need to sell service/warranty packages separately. Get ready for it.

UPP is a manufacturer's way of battling that.

If frame manufacturers see the same phenomenon take hold (and providing they actually care) (the phenomenon being commoditization of frames--the essence of commoditization being product being sold with little/no service) they may step up and help.

Why do frame companies let their product get online in the first place? Don't they care about brick and mortars?

Let's discuss that for a minute.

**drk** · 10-13-2015, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Barry Santini

I understand point on both sides of this discussion. Even if we are "shopped", we'll glaze the frame, align and adjust it at delivery, but inform them that any services needed will be billed a la carte, as needed. Then it simply depends on whether they feel the a la carte fees are worth it.

But we still 'welcome' them. That, I feel, is my job as their local eyecare services provider.

Barry

This system is clean and understandable to both professionals and consumers.

The only thing I don't like about it is: that to adopt it, you have to have waived the white flag. I'm not there, yet. Maybe we'll all get there, but I'm going to fight it as long as I can.

But don't forget, the manufacturers are watching. They're currently seemingly quite happy to have their cake and eat it too.

**CME4SPECS** · 10-13-2015, 01:22 PM

No they don't care about brick and mortars.

**drk** · 10-13-2015, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy

Tbut allows me to charge the dispensing fee if he obtains the lenses from me. By the way, the other situation is where he wants to "buy" my frame and get the lenses elswhere. I don't sell frames. I fit them. I charge the dispensing fee there too, and perform all associated services including pre-adjusting the frame. Any problem with the optics and he gets to solve that with his lens supplier. If I did the exam, checking the Rx one time is included.

I like the way you think, but I don't understand something. Do you charge a frame dispensing fee for patients using their old frames? A new frame with demo lenses in it purchased elsewhere?