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Thread: Why do we sell high-end lenses to mid/low income consumers? We're killing ourselves

  1. #1
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    Why do we sell high-end lenses to mid/low income consumers? We're killing ourselves

    Patients don't want to pay two or three times the price for lenses that are 10-20% better. Why do we sell patients with average incomes top-end progressives for $400 and $120 AR coatings? Because WE think they're great. I do, but THEY don't notice any difference that's worth to THEM the extra $300 over something like a "low-end" freeform or Navigator that we can sell for $200 all day long. The exception would be "high-end" markets but that represents a tiny fraction of the market. We can't ALL be high-end, by definition that's impossible.

    When the consumer can't justify to themselves the $500-700 bill we DO look like the bad guys. We're GIVING our business to the internet, just so we can "feel" high-end or "professional".

    My shop used to try to sell high end lenses to everyone. We had average tickets of $500-$700. We switched to inexpensive PAL's and have sold thousands of pairs for $160 (Plastic no AR) and advertised great prices. 2 years later business is up. I'm just saying. Crizal is great but I talk every single customer that mentions it out of it because I guarantee you it's not 200% better than FEA Industry's AR, not even close.

    You could argue that it's not up to us to decide what the customer can afford, but the truth is the consumer doesn't have the information to decide what the best value is. Unless of course you want to make them 6 pairs of glasses with different PAL's/coatings to see which they like better and decide for themselves if they should spend $200 or $600. It's part of our job IMHO to offer products that offer a proper balance of cost/benefit.

    Let's stop getting sold on the fractional improvement they're getting from lenses that cost 300% more.

    This is all my opinion based on my 20 years experience and 8 years of ownership of an independent optician owned practice.

    I welcome any comments and differing opinions.

    Note: I do believe that these products are better and if 500-1000 bucks is a drop in the bucket to a particular customer, that's fine. But we're doing ourselves, our businesses and our customers a disservice by acting as if they have to spend 2 weeks salary or they're not going to be able to see a dang thing. One particular very successful practice I know of sells almost strictly Navigators and does $3M a year in sales and has been voted by local publications as the best optical in town.
    Last edited by VisionAiry; 09-25-2015 at 04:36 PM.
    Fourteen of my family members (including: aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents...and a great uncle) are, or have been in optical and...that's just crazytown at Christmas

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by VisionAiry View Post
    Patients don't want to pay two or three times the price for lenses that are 10-20% better. Why do we sell patients with average incomes top-end progressives for $400 and $120 AR coatings? Because WE think they're great. I do, but THEY don't notice any difference that's worth to THEM the extra $300 over something like a "low-end" freeform or Navigator that we can sell for $200 all day long. The exception would be "high-end" markets but that represents a tiny fraction of the market. We can't ALL be high-end, by definition that's impossible.

    When the consumer can't justify to themselves the $500-700 bill we DO look like the bad guys. We're GIVING our business to the internet, just so we can "feel" high-end or "professional".

    My shop used to try to sell high end lenses to everyone. We had average tickets of $500-$700. We switched to inexpensive PAL's and have sold thousands of pairs for $160 (Plastic no AR) and advertised great prices. 2 years later business is up. I'm just saying. Crizal is great but I talk every single customer that mentions it out of it because I guarantee you it's not 200% better than FEA Industry's AR, not even close.

    You could argue that it's not up to us to decide what the customer can afford, but the truth is the consumer doesn't have the information to decide what the best value is. Unless of course you want to make them 6 pairs of glasses with different PAL's/coatings to see which they like better and decide for themselves if they should spend $200 or $600. It's part of our job IMHO to offer products that offer a proper balance of cost/benefit.

    Let's stop getting sold on the fractional improvement they're getting from lenses that cost 300% more.

    This is all my opinion based on my 20 years experience and 8 years of ownership of an independent optician owned practice.

    I welcome any comments and differing opinions.

    Note: I do believe that these products are better and if 500-1000 bucks is a drop in the bucket to a particular customer, that's fine. But we're doing ourselves, our businesses and our customers a disservice by acting as if they have to spend 2 weeks salary or they're not going to be able to see a dang thing. One particular very successful practice I know of sells almost strictly Navigators and does $3M a year in sales and has been voted by local publications as the best optical in town.
    Ok so if I read this correctly it took you 2 years with your new business model to increase your sales.
    How does your bottom line compare with that of 2 years ago?

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

  3. #3
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    Top line sales up 20%. Bottom line similarly.

    I know tons of people in the business and NONE of them have experienced significant growth by selling top-tier products to people who can barely afford them. I truly feel we're being convinced of BS by industry reps in most cases. I do believe that the general development of freeform and more recently Camber lenses to be a good thing and significant advances but the vast majority of consumers want balance, value and a practical product they can afford. Everyone "wants" the "best" but not everyone wants to buy it. If they did we'd all be driving Ferraris and Bentleys, not Chevys.
    Fourteen of my family members (including: aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents...and a great uncle) are, or have been in optical and...that's just crazytown at Christmas

  4. #4
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    I'm not sure, but it sounds like for you it's all or nothing. Expensive or Cheap. I like to give my patients options. like 500 for top line, 350 for mid range, and 250 for low end PAL, 150 for bifocals and 100 for single vision. Most progressive buyers opt for the first or second, a few for the 3rd option. But then I practice in a fairly affluent neighborhood. I can't see any reason for only offering one way or the hiway.

    Same thing goes for AR coating, 150 for best, 100 for better, 80 for good, 60 for no guarantee AR, 0.00 for no ar.

    Same thing goes for lens material.

    Same thing goes for frames.

    As a result, some people spend 200 for glasses, some 500 and some 1000 or more, minus any insurance coverage.

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Giving people only what they think they want makes you no different than an online option.

    Lead.

    B

  6. #6
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    What, I'm not supposed to accommodate patients' requests? Not sure if I understand your comments. If a patient wants the best, that's what I give them. If the best doesn't fit their budget, I'll do my best to help them in that way. How that might equate to "online option" I have no idea, unless you are trying to play God and tell the patient what they "need" with no options at all when you know good and well that decent options really do exist.

    As for the terse "Lead." I assume you mean Moses style as opposed to the metallic version? I don't do Moses either.

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    With apologies to all the PETA people on OptiBoard there are many ways to skin the cat. No matter what your marketing strategy is, the customer is the ultimate arbiter of the value or worth of a given product or service. That being said, the important prime directive must take into account what you, the business owner, feels comfortable with. If you ain't the business owner and not willing to do as your told it's time to move on.

  8. #8
    O.D. Almost Retired
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    Agreed. To which I can only add: If you ARE the business owner and not willing to provide what the patient wants maybe it's time to move on...

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Last edited by Judy Canty; 10-01-2015 at 09:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    Educate them as to what's available, and let them choose. It's not brain surgery. I always make sure the patient is aware that it's THEIR choice, not mine.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  11. #11
    OptiBoard Moron newguyaroundhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Educate them as to what's available, and let them choose. It's not brain surgery. I always make sure the patient is aware that it's THEIR choice, not mine.
    +1. I make honest recommendations to the patient based on their Rx, lifestyle, what they are looking for, etc and I give them the freedom to choose what they want. I take the time to fully explain what they are getting and ensuring I've met all of their needs
    Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity

  12. #12
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    We only offer the best value and we are super-luxury!

    I was a lab rep and know the equipment and process; hence we use only what is a value and we do not give any choice. I actually order all the lenses and my staff never discusses anything about brands or better versions; it is either clear, transitions, polarized with or without a mirror. My entire priceless must fit on one page or we eliminate items!

    WE TELL FOLKS THEY ONLY GET THE BEST FOR THEM AND THERE IS NO CHOICE TO BE MADE!

    We do 96% trivex because we do 70% drill-mounts so why offer an option that is not the correct at least 70% of the time and we include the AR in the price of all lenses. Trivex is only not used in RX's over +4 to -5 then we use 1.67 or 1.74.

    We charge $495 retail for Camber in trivex with (no name) crizal or Zeiss for everyone and we do offer a basic trivex with no ar or digital but we don't really sell 1 per year. We do not offer any patient warranty unless the coating fails but if they scratch them it is done for 1/2 off with-in 2 years. It is never even discussed because we stand behind our issues and our clients do the same.

    I am a value and in the luxury business; the only reason anyone sells an AR that costs 5x more than I pay is for VSP upgrades or lack of understanding. I just checked yesterday and the latest Crizal is exactly 5x what I pay from the same lab for the same AR we have used for 15 years. They do upgrade it along the way and just ensure it does not fall off and has all the new stuff averrable that actually matters to performance.

    The AR is almost all the same and the name and warranty are most of what you are buying; I introduced Crizal to the US market so I do have real inside information and 17 years of retail to utilize. If your lab is Crizal certified then you are always getting an amazing AR, it just depends on the name and what you want to pay.

    I have maintained that the only reason for the newer latest and greatest is to upsell in insurance settings; there is no other way to justify selling some silly 4D lens that costs me 3x a Camber for no real gain maybe a loss if anything.

    I will keep doing what we have done for 25 years and the rest of the world will continue to waste time talking to clients about something they don't understand or can't actually measure to justify an extra $200 over what we charge.

    If you take a +2 with a 2 add and put them in an original Pentax non-compensated freeform from 15 years ago or a new Camber; they will be very happy with both and tell me the Camber is slightly better but they are happy with either one. We have done actually tests on numerous clients and the real issue is the material used, RX and fitting.

    If you take insurance then you are forced to up sell or you will be out of business but that is what happens when you need to give a huge discount to have someone send you clients; we are forced to earn the cash by being different than anyone who takes insurance or thinks spending less is better than getting value.

    As VSP opens the internet to their clients and opens VSP doors all over the country; How will any OD survive?

    They cannot and we will be here to pick up the crumbs that are left.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Educate them as to what's available, and let them choose. It's not brain surgery. I always make sure the patient is aware that it's THEIR choice, not mine.
    Just put them in what you would wear or put your family in. Do you give mom or dad a choice or just do it for them?

  14. #14
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    Craig,

    Can you share the name and source of the above mentioned AR coating?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by morinput View Post
    Craig,

    Can you share the name and source of the above mentioned AR coating?

    Thanks
    Any coating from Pech Optical house brand selection will do the job; it just depends on the warranty you want. WE opt for no warranty and pay less as a result.

  16. #16
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    What a relevant topic to everyday opticianry. God bless Johns, Dr Bill Stacy and VisionAiry for presenting such compelling (and opposing) views. The faster you understand your demographic the quicker you will be sucessfull. The conversation here definitively proves this. Yes, there is magnificent technology available at a price - but people are still well enough happy with Younger Images as they are impressed with Zeiss Individuals. Know your demographic and act accordingly - everything else is suicide. All these opinions are valid - the trick is choosing which one works for you. Stay thirsty my friends.

  17. #17
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    Let's also remember, the patients evaluation of their happiness with their glasses (and the price) does not end when they walk out the door. If they paid $300 for their previous lenses and you convinced them that your new $500 lenses are just amazing, in order for you to retain that customers trust, they damned well better be OBVIOUSLY superior. Quite frankly if they're not perceived to be 66.7% (the extra $200 worth) better, then most reasonable consumers are going to feel that they got "sold" or "ripped off". This is, in short, the point of my whole long-winded original post.

    Do you truly believe that they're getting 67% clearer vision, less distortion and wider reading and intermediate fields to justify that cost. Do you even believe it's 20%? More importantly do you believe that THEY are going to notice that difference? If you treat each customer as a one-time sale then sure, go for it, but they're being bombarded with information via advertisements, TV investigative reports and friends/family telling them that they probably paid too much. I think most of us want to keep our patients/customers coming back for life. One huge difference between our profession and product is that consumers truly are largely uneducated, and since it's our responsibility to educate them let's be sure that the benefits we promise them actually exist to the extent that we say they do and that we're not viewed as highway robbers.

    Let's also not forget that we've been told every year for the last 30 years that this years lens has a 15% wider reading field than last years. If that were true then my math tells me that patients should be able to read a document approximately 6 feet wide, and we all know that's not the case.

    I wish I could just stop editing lol. One more thing, people that pay less for glasses, buy them more frequently and shop around less when the time comes so it just may be the same amount of revenue for you as well as a greater likelihood of keeping that patient for life.
    Fourteen of my family members (including: aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents...and a great uncle) are, or have been in optical and...that's just crazytown at Christmas

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder Mizikal's Avatar
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    I recently purchased some products and services from a home improvement store. They sold me the basic package. I had no idea they sold me the basic package. I was under the assumption that a lot of things were included but were not. They sales person assumed I wouldn't want to pay extra for those services so they didn't even offer them to me. I wanted quiet a few of them. I will not return to them because of it.

    I don't sell glasses. I am a horrible sales person. I tell people what their options are and let them decide. They can ask me my opinion and I give an honest answer. You cannot make lens suggestions from the patient pocket book.You don't know what they want or what they feel they need so let them pick for themselves. I will tell you personally I have a hard time with 10% better clarity for a 200% price increase but the choice ins't mine to make.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mizikal View Post
    I recently purchased some products and services from a home improvement store. They sold me the basic package. I had no idea they sold me the basic package. I was under the assumption that a lot of things were included but were not. They sales person assumed I wouldn't want to pay extra for those services so they didn't even offer them to me. I wanted quiet a few of them. I will not return to them because of it.

    I don't sell glasses. I am a horrible sales person. I tell people what their options are and let them decide. They can ask me my opinion and I give an honest answer. You cannot make lens suggestions from the patient pocket book.You don't know what they want or what they feel they need so let them pick for themselves. I will tell you personally I have a hard time with 10% better clarity for a 200% price increase but the choice ins't mine to make.
    I do agree with your general position Mizikal. In fact nearly every sales expert in the world would agree with you. I don't love your example though. In your example you actually noticed the lack of essential materials and services.

    I think the difference between our business and most others is that the patient is almost guaranteed to notice no difference whatsoever. Let's sell things the patients can see like AR, High-Index, Transitions, beautiful high quality frames. Maybe even a nice fancy edge polish but let's just wipe these ridiculously expensive marginally better products off our menus.

    I'm not saying lets just sell everyone a Navigator (they do work BTW), but let's just be reasonable and admit that 90% of our customers value a dollar just the same as we do, because they do. Unless you're in SoHo NYC or Uptown Dallas or on Rodeo Drive, in which case screw it go for the gusto. Those people told you what they wanted just by walking in your door.
    Fourteen of my family members (including: aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents...and a great uncle) are, or have been in optical and...that's just crazytown at Christmas

  20. #20
    O.D. Almost Retired
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    One nice thing about managed care plans is they often allow the patient several levels of PALs, ARs and lens materials. Sometimes they can choose any and don't have to pay a cent (some vsp plans). Other times they can choose from some levels and have to pay for most of it themselves ( some eyemed plans and many others). I would not survive financially if I only offered one level. My patients love having choices.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    One nice thing about managed care plans is they often allow the patient several levels of PALs, ARs and lens materials. Sometimes they can choose any and don't have to pay a cent (some vsp plans). Other times they can choose from some levels and have to pay for most of it themselves ( some eyemed plans and many others). I would not survive financially if I only offered one level. My patients love having choices.
    You must not be one, like me, who feels that managed care has destroyed our industry. That's another topic though. Being "almost retired" though I'd imagine gives you a better perspective than I since I assume you've got 35+ years in. I'd be interested to hear your views on the good and bad over that time period. My experience starts in the mid 1990's so I don't have experience in the "insurance-free" world of optical.
    Fourteen of my family members (including: aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents...and a great uncle) are, or have been in optical and...that's just crazytown at Christmas

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Just put them in what you would wear or put your family in. Do you give mom or dad a choice or just do it for them?
    Craig......I'm curious as to how you would handle a customer bringing in an rx and asking for a particular brand of progressive?

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

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    Quote Originally Posted by VisionAiry View Post
    You must not be one, like me, who feels that managed care has destroyed our industry. That's another topic though. Being "almost retired" though I'd imagine gives you a better perspective than I since I assume you've got 35+ years in. I'd be interested to hear your views on the good and bad over that time period. My experience starts in the mid 1990's so I don't have experience in the "insurance-free" world of optical.
    I opened up in 1971. VSP had already started as CVS (California Vision Plan) by a group of optometrists. Today VSP has good and bad things, but on balance, I like it. I don't think managed care has destroyed the industry. It has elevated the practice of optometry, maybe at some cost to opticianry. In 1971 VSP was about 20% of my practice. Now it's about 80%. I made a decent living back then and make much more now. True, we work harder now, but I see that as a good thing. It keeps me out of trouble.
    Last edited by Dr. Bill Stacy; 09-26-2015 at 12:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Giving people only what they think they want makes you no different than an online option.

    Lead.

    B
    I'm in agreement with Mr Santini, on this one. There are plenty of places besides DIY for folks to get inexpensive product. You are also selling to your demographic. A missing part of the eyewear experience many do not perform is the the interview/assessment process; where you discuss the needs and wants of your client. The use of aids will demonstrate just how important certain lens features will be to your client and they can determine where the money needs to be spent. Providing a few lines that will allow your client to spend less on a frame will help you manage their needs or wants for lenses. This can all be done without having to sacrifice quality and selling to the LCD.
    I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it. Mark Twain

  25. #25
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Blue Jumper let's be sure that the benefits we promise them actually exist

    Quote Originally Posted by VisionAiry View Post

    One huge difference between our profession and product is that consumers truly are largely uneducated, and since it's our responsibility to educate them let's be sure that the benefits we promise them actually exist to the extent that we say they do and that we're not viewed as highway robbers.
    I actually did like that post vbery much, because it makes good sense.

    After I had been through my optical education, my father sent me also to courses in sales psychology, starting with a Dale Carnegy couse and then progressing into others.

    These days which are dominated by the internet all such things are at our finger tips. However nobody here on OptiBoard ever mentions any such ideas on how to make a sale or loose it, or even save it.

    There are even forums on that subject on which there is a lot to learn and widen the horizon of good selling for the younger as well as the older ones.

    Here is an excert:

    3. Don’t offer more; offer less. A la carte offerings are the new standard across almost all industries. The result? Consumers are flooded with a mind-boggling array of choices. Although consumers have been conditioned to think "more options is better," that's not necessarily the case. Studies have repeatedly shown that too many choices can result in analysis paralysis—customers frozen into indecision. Customers want to feel like they’re in control ... but only to a certain point. Your best bet? Offer exactly three choices. You’re the expert; use your knowledge to present your client with three good choices, rather than trying to dazzle them with everything you can do. Buck the trend, and you'll win.


    4. Give prospects an easy out. We’re all so used to high-pressure sales techniques that we’re positively refreshed when that pressure doesn’t materialize. If you make your pitch, try ending it by telling the prospect that you understand if they think your product isn’t a fit for them. Evidence shows that your close rate stays about the same, but here’s the really powerful part: Your clients’ confidence increases, and you eliminate buyer’s remorse. If they make the decision based on their preference, rather than because of undue pressure, then they’re happy with their choice. They don’t expect you to favor their confidence over your sale.

    See all of it: ==========>
    https://www.americanexpress.com/us/s...ou-close-sales

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