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Thread: Anyone look at the self-rx tools by Eyenetra and TheEyeScanApp?

  1. #1
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    Anyone look at the self-rx tools by Eyenetra and TheEyeScanApp?

    They are new but have technology that can help anyone ensure they are getting an RX that is at least close vs some of what we see from techs. We are going to try both out on patients and test the results vs the refraction they receive from elsewhere. We will also use them to help demonstrate to folks who think they do not need glasses at all after some procedure and never will again.

    This is the future as far as I can tell and we want to be part of anything to help the patient see as well as possible.

    Thoughts from folks are welcome and let the RX police be on notice that technology does a better job than most tech's at an MD office; we almost have no issues with an RX done by an OD but from any MD office is a 35% chance of disaster.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    I am familar with Eye Netra and looked at Smartvision at VEW.

    I need to look at the eyescan app.

    B

  3. #3
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    What do you prefer Eye Netra or Smartvision; I did not see Smartvision.

    Call me if you want.

  4. #4
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    What do you prefer Eye Netra or Smartvision; I did not see Smartvision.

    Call me if you want.
    Two different modalities.

    EyeNetra is subjective
    Smartvision is objective.

    B

  5. #5
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    couple of things....
    ...Eyenetra's process is patient driven, and we all know how accurate that can be.
    ...a final Rx is neither an objective nor a subjective measurement. It is a blend of chief complaint, habitual Rx, entering acuities vs endpoint acuities, and a few objective and subjective refracting techniques in between.
    ...Eyenetra's system does nothing to assess prisms in habitual glasses nor the need for prisms during the "exam".
    ...two wrongs don't make a right.

    I don't blame you for trying to cut down on remakes, though. It's just not how I would go about it.

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    Two different modalities.

    Corrected:
    EyeNetra is patient driven
    Smartvision is device driven
    Dr.'s Rx is doctor driven, with many more factors used to arrive at the final numbers..
    B
    Reminds me of the finished curves on the back of a hard contact lens. You can't ascertain the exact radii used to obtain the proper end fit after the "blending" had occurred.

    b

  7. #7
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    Hi all,

    Vitor, CTO for EyeNetra here.

    Happy to go deep into any questions you guys might have. Specially the tricky ones like accommodation control and optical alignment. ;)

    Best,

  8. #8
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    Can you share the white paper results with the group? I have already ordered one and am hoping it is as easy for a potential client to use as we hope.
    We had a pick-up today that did not work due to her RX change and she tore us up like we did something wrong; this tool would have let her do a self-evaluation to compare to what the OD wrote.

    Hope we like the machine as much as we anticipate.

  9. #9
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    Hi Craig,

    Our accuracy is similar to good auto-refractors. Similar. Not better, not worse. We have an average absolute difference of 0.35D against subjective refraction in double blind, non dilated tests in an average population, which is in the same range (0.30D-0.39D) good auto-refractors and wavefront aberrometers are in. This is mostly due to our accommodation control solution. Since it is a subjective solution, patience compliance is key. Younger kids might not have the patience to go through the test.

    That said, your situation is a bit tricky. ODs/MDs adjust the refraction for comfort. You will find variations when people come in if you compare to NETRA alone. And you won't be able to blame either the tool or the doctor. They are just measuring different things. However, you will be able to detect bigger mistakes.

    You might want to use our full kit to seek for more interesting answers. The Netropter can give you visual acuities of the prescribed refraction. If it is not 20/20, the doctor should have a good reason for why he is under correcting the patient. The netrometer will check if the glasses were made right. And NETRA assesses the eye. You can double check the NETRA readings with the Netropter, getting acuities as well.

    Of course, I am assuming you are licensed to run all these procedures which, in the US, it is a state-by-state case.

    For completeness, we got about 19 papers, abstracts and posters out there from different countries. Good results, bad results, big analysis it is all there. We feel very proud of our transparency in terms of results. Here is a short list:

    2015 - Monica M. S. Matsumoto, Vitor F. Pamplona, Matthias Hoffmann, Guilherme Uzejka, Nate Sharpe. NETRA-G: High-order Power Map and Low-order Lensmeter using a Smartphone Add-on. OSA's Frontiers in Optics 2015.
    2015 - Vitor Pamplona, Steven Tupin, Jorge Cuadros, Rahul Modi, Sowjanya Gowrisankaran. Validation of Confidence Levels for a Cell Phone-Based Refractor (NETRA-G). ARVO 2015, Denver CO.
    2014 - Vitor F Pamplona. NETRA-G: Towards a Subjective Self-Refraction. OSA's Frontiers in Optics 2014.
    2014 - Nadine Solaka, Rahul Modi, Hilary Gaiser, Vitor Pamplona, David Schafran, Ran He, Bruce D. Moore. Comparison of a New Prototype of NETRA-G Cellphone-Based Refraction with Subjective Refraction. ARVO 2014, Orlando, FL.
    2014 - Vitor F. Pamplona, Jonnadula Kartik, Shrikant Bharadwaj, Pradeep Nakhate, Nathaniel Sharpe. Identification and Comparison of Critical Axis Combinations for Estimating the Refractive Power of the Eye using NETRA. ARVO 2014, Orlando, FL.
    2012 - Bruce D. Moore, Nadine Solaka, Vitor Fernando Pamplona, David Schafran, Amy Canham, Ramesh Raskar, Hilary Gaiser. Comparison of a Novel Cell Phone-based Refraction Technique (NETRA-G) with Subjective Refraction. AAO 2012, Chicago, IL.
    2012 - Martha P. Lang, Helena M. Pakter, Lisia B. Ferreira, Ankit Mohan, Ramesh Raskar, Vitor F. Pamplona, Manoel M. Oliveira - Comparison of a Cell Phone-Based Refraction Technique (NETRA) With Auto-Refraction. ARVO 2012, Fort Lauderdale, US
    2012 - Vitor Pamplona, Manuel M. Oliveira, Daniel Aliaga, Ramesh Raskar. Tailored Displays to Compensate for Visual Aberrations. Proc. of SIGGRAPH 2012. ACM Transactions on Graphics 31 (4), 2012. Pages 87:1 - 12. 2012.
    2012 - Vitor F. Pamplona. Interactive Measurements and Tailored Displays for Optical Aberrations of the Human Eye. PhD Thesis. Porto Alegre: CPGCC-UFRGS, Jul. 2012.
    2011 - Vitor Pamplona, Erick Passos, Jan Zizka, Manuel M. Oliveira, Everett Lawson, Esteban Clua, Ramesh Raskar. CATRA: Interactive Measuring and Modeling of Cataracts. Proc. of SIGGRAPH 2011. ACM Transactions on Graphics 30 (4), 2011.
    2011 - Veerendranath Pesala, Sangeetha Srinivasan, Ethan Solomon, Vitor F. Pamplona, Manuel M. Oliviera, Ramesh Raskar, Shrikant Bharadwaj. Comparison of a Novel Cell Phone-Based Refraction Technique (NETRA) With Objective Clinical Retinoscopy. ARVO 2011.
    2010 - Vitor F. Pamplona, Ankit Mohan, Manuel M. Oliveira, Ramesh Raskar. Low-cost and Portable tool for Measuring Eye Refractive Disorders using Active Participation. Proc. of 88th Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Optometry (AAO) , San Francisco.
    2010 - Vitor F. Pamplona, Ankit Mohan, Manuel M. Oliveira, Ramesh Raskar. Dual of Shack-Hartmann Optometry Using Mobile Phones. Proc. of Frontiers in Optics (FiO), Optical Society of America. Rochester, New York. 2010.
    2010 - Vitor F. Pamplona, Ankit Mohan, Manuel M. Oliveira, Ramesh Raskar. NETRA: Interactive Display for Estimating Refractive Errors and Focal Range. Proc. of SIGGRAPH 2010. ACM Transactions on Graphics 29 (4), 77:1 - 77:8, 2010.

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up Got my Eyenetra and it works better than any Autorefr we have seen!

    We have used it with all 6 of us and the only one who did not get an RX that was good is a pl -4.00 cyl, but the machine told us the read was not good. The other 5 of us all got almost the exact RX we wear or the power equivalent with the total PD always within 1mm.

    The 5 of us have rx's that vary from almost plano, -9.00 our OD, pl -1.50 cyl, +3.00, and a +1.00. All of us- including the OD who does low vision- was amazed at the results and consistency.

    This thing is great for us as a retail to at-least have a self test for folks who want to ensure they will be able to see out of the new MD rx the tech just did.

    I am a believer in the Eyenetra!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    We have used it with all 6 of us and the only one who did not get an RX that was good is a pl -4.00 cyl, but the machine told us the read was not good. The other 5 of us all got almost the exact RX we wear or the power equivalent with the total PD always within 1mm.

    The 5 of us have rx's that vary from almost plano, -9.00 our OD, pl -1.50 cyl, +3.00, and a +1.00. All of us- including the OD who does low vision- was amazed at the results and consistency.

    This thing is great for us as a retail to at-least have a self test for folks who want to ensure they will be able to see out of the new MD rx the tech just did.

    I am a believer in the Eyenetra!
    Just a discussion Craig, I don't mean to be critical...but you are using the eyenetra equipment in a different way...not exactly what it was intended for. It was intended to be used as a means to have a lay person ( a "visioneer") perform a "refraction" on a patient, then submit the data for approval, followed by a spectacle Rx. You seem to be using it to allow patients to see the difference between an old Rx and new one. Couldn't you just use a trial frame? It's a much more realistic frame of reference compared to a "netropter"? I've seen the equipment up close, toyed with it for a few minutes.

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    The Sonomed Escalon Electronic trial frame (Visualizer) is better at all then a traditional trial frame.

    The DIgital Vision Systems new version of the ol' Alvarez/Humphrey system is also sweet. Take a look.

    B

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Just a discussion Craig, I don't mean to be critical...but you are using the eyenetra equipment in a different way...not exactly what it was intended for. It was intended to be used as a means to have a lay person ( a "visioneer") perform a "refraction" on a patient, then submit the data for approval, followed by a spectacle Rx. You seem to be using it to allow patients to see the difference between an old Rx and new one. Couldn't you just use a trial frame? It's a much more realistic frame of reference compared to a "netropter"? I've seen the equipment up close, toyed with it for a few minutes.
    We actually have not used on a patient yet but the idea is to use in conjunction with trial lenses. We all trial framed our RX to verify and we liked them.
    This will be used to self check for patients who can't see 20/20 with a trial of the new rx- normally from an MD office-and as a starting point for our OD.

    We will tweak an RX slightly but our goal is best acuity and not to cut out the OD in our office but to help as a tool for more exams.

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    The current refractive paradigm is flawed in terms of the reliability of its outcome. Only when you have to fill a broad swath of outside Rxs...and pay out of pocket for the redos...do you realize this.

    B

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    The current refractive paradigm is flawed in terms of the reliability of its outcome. Only when you have to fill a broad swath of outside Rxs...and pay out of pocket for the redos...do you realize this.

    B
    Agreed. FWIW, I fill about the same number of outside Rxs than those that are taken from my office and filled elsewhere.

  16. #16
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    Bumping up this thread. Is anyone using the Netrometer? This is the lensometer from EyeNetra. Opinions on accuracy?
    EyeNetra Inc

  17. #17
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    Anyone interested in buying a virtually brand new one?

    cs

  18. #18
    OptiBoard Professional Michael I. Davis's Avatar
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    Maybe; what do you not like about it that you are getting rid of it?

  19. #19
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    Blue Jumper Essilor just made a Press release on the latest inventions ..........................

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post

    The current refractive paradigm is flawed in terms of the reliability of its outcome. Only when you have to fill a broad swath of outside Rxs...and pay out of pocket for the redos...do you realize this.

    B.

    That was 2 years ago ...........................

    Essilor just made a Press release on the latest inventions they are giving big prices.

    See the other thread:
    awarded to PlenOptika in the United States for their QuickSee handheld


  20. #20
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    It works as advertised. We thought it would be a quick and easy way to get a Rx off a pt's glasses (had we not made them) without leaving to go to the lab and neutralize with the Marco 101. Despite a video conference on using it we found it to be more accurate and quicker to take them the few feet to the lab and use our super-awesome lensometer skills. Bottom line it's slick and cool looking but it's to fiddly for us.

    cs

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    I stumbled across the Eyenetra home page and the instructions for using the "Netropter", the handheld phoropter. It sounds reassuring that everyone who has had hands-on opportunities has at least deemed it okay, because honestly it looked and sounded like a toy. Are the moving parts plastic, what did they feel like when moving? And are you simply supposed to "feel" when the astigmatism is correctly refracted?

    Not convinced, but I do see it working in combination with a handheld Jackson cross cylinder. Haven't figured out what to do about prisms though.

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    OptiBoard Apprentice JGor's Avatar
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    Wave

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_the_Swede View Post
    I stumbled across the Eyenetra home page and the instructions for using the "Netropter", the handheld phoropter. It sounds reassuring that everyone who has had hands-on opportunities has at least deemed it okay, because honestly it looked and sounded like a toy. Are the moving parts plastic, what did they feel like when moving? And are you simply supposed to "feel" when the astigmatism is correctly refracted?

    Not convinced, but I do see it working in combination with a handheld Jackson cross cylinder. Haven't figured out what to do about prisms though.

    ??

  23. #23
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    Reviving this thread as I'm looking into one of these two options.
    Anyone here with experience using one of these in the last couple of years?
    Looking for any big issues anyone here may have faced :)

    Thanks in advance.
    J

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