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Thread: going soft or what ?

  1. #1
    Yorkshire Grit optispares's Avatar
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    Question going soft or what ?

    news bulletin.
    Ryan expected to commute terms of all death row inmates

    January 11, 2003

    By MIKE RAMSEY
    of Copley News Service


    Gov. George Ryan pardoned four death row inmates Friday and is expected to announce today that he will commute the sentences of most or all the remaining condemned prisoners.

    Broadcasts by NBC news and WGN-TV in Chicago reported on Friday that Ryan, who leaves office Monday, will issue a "blanket commutation" to the 156 remaining inmates who were sentenced to die. County prosecutors and most families of murder victims fiercely oppose such an unprecedented move to commute the death sentences to life in prison or time served.

    A Ryan spokesman did not return telephone calls Friday night. During a speech earlier in the day at DePaul University College of Law, Ryan said families of victims and inmates alike were to receive overnight letters informing them of his decisions.

    "After families have received those letters, I will make my decision public," Ryan said. He scheduled his announcement for 1 p.m. today, during a speech at Northwestern University's Chicago law campus.

    On Friday, the Republican governor announced the four pardons before an appreciative - but carefully selected - audience of law students, death-penalty opponents and relatives of the men he was assisting. Ryan said he believes claims by Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, LeRoy Orange and Aaron Patterson that Chicago police tortured them into falsely confessing to murders, and had other evidence and testimony rigged against the four in the 1980s.

    Fired Police Commander John Burge is the subject of a separate investigation into whether dozens of suspects were abused inside the south-side Area 2 headquarters under his command. Torture methods allegedly ranged from suffocation to electric shock.

    "I believe these men are innocent," Ryan said during his speech Friday. "I still have faith in the system that eventually these men would have received justice in our courts. But I believe the old adage is true: Justice delayed is justice denied."

    Hobley, Orange and Patterson were released from prison Friday. Ryan said Howard, whom he pardoned for a fatal 1984 shooting, will remain imprisoned for unrelated felony crimes the governor suggested may also be trumped-up.

    Hobley was convicted of a 1987 apartment fire that killed seven people, including his wife and infant child; Orange for fatally stabbing four people in 1984; and Patterson for the 1986 stabbing deaths of a South Side couple.

    The pardons brought a scathing rebuke from Cook County State's Attorney Richard Devine, who held a news conference Friday night with assistant prosecutors to share details of the murder cases. Their collective message: The men Ryan cleared were guilty and are potentially dangerous.

    "All of these would have been best left for consideration by the courts," Devine, a Democrat, said. "Instead, they were ripped away from the justice system by a man who's a pharmacist by training and a politician by trade."

    Ryan halted executions nearly three years ago after the release of 13 death row inmates cast doubts on the integrity of capital punishment in Illinois. As he has prepared to leave office, the governor has been besieged by groups on both sides of the issue, seeking to influence his constitutional powers to commute sentences or pardon inmates.

    The four pardons announced Friday brought the total number of death row inmates released to 17. Illinois has executed 12 inmates since the death penalty was reinstated in 1977.

    The venue where Ryan has scheduled his appearance today, Northwestern University's law campus, has championed the cases of wrongly convicted death row inmates, as has DePaul. The locale for his second announcement bolstered beliefs that Ryan plans to protect the lives of most or all of the remaining prisoners.

    "I am optimistic that's what's going to happen, but I'm not going to tell you that I know that's what's going to happen," Northwestern law professor and defense attorney Larry Marshall said after Ryan's appearance Friday. "I don't think anyone could listen to the governor's speech today and believe otherwise."

    Other death penalty opponents had high praise for the governor.

    "I think he knows the system is broken," said Jane T. Bohman, executive director of the Illinois Coalition Against the Death Penalty. "It's up to his judgment now, and we just encourage him to remember how deeply flawed the system is (and) the fact that the public safety will not be compromised (with commutations).

    "People who are guilty will remain in prison," she said. "Those ... whose innocence is in question will be able to continue their appeal."

    With less enthusiasm, Devine braced himself for a blanket commutation.

    "I have no doubt at all that he'll commute everybody's sentence tomorrow. If he doesn't, I'll be shocked," the prosecutor said.

    Ryan announced pardons for two others Friday: wrongly accused rapist Gary Dotson, the first Illinois inmate exonerated through DNA evidence; and Miguel Castillo, a Cuban immigrant who the governor said already was in jail when the murder for which he was convicted was committed.

    It was the death row cases that grabbed the most attention, and the most emotional reactions, at Ryan's DePaul speech.

    "I don't believe in miracles, but this is a miracle," Aaron Patterson's mother, Jo Ann, said. "They always said this wasn't going to happen, there was no way he was going to get a pardon based on actual innocence. But now, I believe in America."

    Ryan said relatives of death row inmates are "a whole other class of victims that never get mentioned" in the controversy surrounding his decision. Survivors of murder victims previously have garnered most media attention, particularly when Ryan's parole board last year considered most of the death row cases and made confidential recommendations to him.

    Devine challenged Ryan to make those reports public because he believes most prisoners were turned down for clemency. He also suggested Illinois should consider taking away a governor's broad clemency powers.

    Ryan's elected successor to the executive office, Democrat Rod Blagojevich, had no comment about the governor's actions Friday, a spokeswoman said. A Chicago Police Department spokesman did not return phone calls seeking comment.


    Just when I thought it was only our whimpy government that was soft on killers.?:drop:
    http://www.optispares.btinternet.co.uk

    jack


    It is by universal misunderstanding that all agree. For if, by ill luck, people understood each other, they would never agree.

  2. #2
    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    Yup. I can't wait to see the lawsuits fyl when the first one of these scumbags kills someone else!:o

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    Bad address email on file dfisher's Avatar
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    While I am not fully aware of all the details, the real issue is that some of these individuals are either known to be innocent or that the confessions were beaten out of many of the others.

    I fully support swift, harsh punishment for those who have commited acts that deserve it. The problem is that often times those who cannot affort the kind of "dream team" defense that represented O.J. Simpson do not get the representation required to prove their innocence.

    Do you remember reading about several persons released in the last few months because new DNA evidence proved they not guilty?

    I don't mind murderers terrorists, or anyone else deserving, being fried, gased, hung, injected or otherwise disposed of as long as the judicial system makes sure they have the right person.

  4. #4
    No justice system will ever be perfect.

    There will always be a small percentage of innocent people that are unjustly punished and a small percentage of guilty people who will remain unpunished.

    Our goal as a society should be:
    a) To support our justice system, even with its flaws, while continuously seeking ways to improve it.
    b) To do everything in our power to minimize the mistakes.
    c) Remember that it is better for a guilty man to go free than for an innocent man to be punished for something he did not do.

    Terry:)

  5. #5
    Banned
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    Some of these people even video-taped thier crimes:

    Example: One of them took his girlfriend to see a woman nine monthis pregnant (by him), shot and stabbed her, cut her open with sissors, removed the baby (so the girlfriend could have a baby) cut her nine year old son's throat (all of this on video tape) and was then convicted.

    Now tell me why such people are worthy of my tax dollars supporting them for the rest of thier lives?

    Tell me how the world will benefit by having such people in it?

    In the words of the airborne people "Kill them all, let God sort 'em out.

    Chip:hammer:

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    chip anderson said:
    Some of these people even video-taped thier crimes:

    Example: One of them took his girlfriend to see a woman nine monthis pregnant (by him), shot and stabbed her, cut her open with sissors, removed the baby (so the girlfriend could have a baby) cut her nine year old son's throat (all of this on video tape) and was then convicted.
    Chip:hammer:

    Chip,
    I agree with you wholeheartedly! I cannot fathom their giving chief executives a free reign on commuting sentences! I wonder what this Governor will have to face in the next life.

    I wonder if he has any conscience! I wouldn't want to be the stain he will surely be on the history of his state!
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

  7. #7
    Bad address email on file dfisher's Avatar
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    Are we willing to accept a certain percentage of innocent people being killed? We are all for justice, but what is it when the lack of representation or the acts of an over zealous prosecutor or the fabrication of evidence convicts an innocent person to death? It's really hard to go back and say OOPS after the innocent man--the father, brother, son, etc. - has been firmly planted in the ground for all time.

    Give justice to the criminals. Reform the system so that only the guilty are executed.

  8. #8
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    While I'm sure this sort of thing has happened in the past and will continue in the future (i.e., politicians taking sweeping actions in their waning days when they won't be around for the consequences), I think this misguided governor was likely influenced by President Clinton's impressive performance during his final hours.

    I bring this up simply to remind us of what was truly some of the saddest hours of a particularly sad previous administration- without class to the bitter end.

    Extending the same faulty logic, shouldn't we release ALL prisoners? After all, surely there are some innocent people being detained right at this moment!

    In the words of Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

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  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Capital punishment has been proven over and over again NOT to deter crime. It also puts us as Americans in some pretty questionable company with the handful of other nations who still practice it (on the other hand, it does give us something in common with our swell Islamic zealot friends). I am stunned by the suggestion that we should execute people because it is economically sound, i.e. why should my tax dollars blah blah--by this logic, we should round up all the elderly and knock em off, think of the savings.

    At the end of the day, it comes down to is it right and morally defendible. For those of you who are practicing Christians, if Christ was to chime in on this discussion, which side would he take? Forget the criminals, I don't like what capital punishment says about us as a culture, it is brutish and ugly. Forgiveness is tough, vengence is easy.

    I think that's enough pontificating for one day!!!!!!

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    chm2023 said:
    At the end of the day, it comes down to is it right and morally defendible. For those of you who are practicing Christians, if Christ was to chime in on this discussion, which side would he take? Forget the criminals, I don't like what capital punishment says about us as a culture, it is brutish and ugly. Forgiveness is tough, vengence is easy.

    I think that's enough pontificating for one day!!!!!!
    CHM,
    I must remind you that the same Bible that says "Thou shalt not murder" also says "An eye for an eye".

    I agree with your thoughts, but I can't (at this time in my life) fathom forgiving someone that commits acts as heartless as the one mentioned earlier. I can't fathom John Walsh forgiving the person that murdered his son Adam. Or Samantha Runion's mom forgiving the man that horribly murdered her.

    I can understand God forgiving them if they ask for it. They will get a Heavenly reward, but must first suffer the earthly punishment! And I have to believe there is a special Hell for people that murder children!
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder Night Train's Avatar
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    If we say that anyone who commits a murder must be executed, then check your Bibles because you wouldnt have Bibles. David, Moses and Paul would all have been executed.

    I have another problem with the death penalty. If someone could actually convince me it was acceptable, I would need it to be swift. When we convict someone and then give them YEARS to change into differnet people....we are not executing muderers anymore. We are executing FORMER murderers. There is a difference.

  12. #12
    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Lightbulb eye for eye

    Actually Cindy, if i remember that passage correctly, its an eye for an eye, but veangence is mine alone said the lord

  13. #13
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him. Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. Leviticus 24:19-20
    This is from the Old Testament and represents the teaching of the law.

    Ye have heard that it hath been said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38
    This was Jesus talking to the multitudes and teaching His disciples, and immediately follows a section call the "Beatitudes."

    For those of you who are practicing Christians, if Christ was to chime in on this discussion, which side would he take? Forget the criminals, I don't like what capital punishment says about us as a culture, it is brutish and ugly.
    Considering that Christ was killed by a form of capital punishment (crucifixion) along with two criminals who were suffering the same (albeit deserved, in their case) fate, one would think He would have had something to say on the matter.

    However, the conversation of the criminals is rather telling. As you will recall, one of them mocked Jesus while the other defended Him saying something to the effect of "we're getting what we deserve, but He has done nothing wrong." Jesus turns to this criminal and does not launch into a denouncement of capital punishment but rather assures him of Heaven.

    I don't like a lot of things about our society either. I don't like the fact that we are surrounded by violence and a culture that seems hell bent on taking families apart (a society that has come to expect families to self-destruct). Personally, I support capital punishment- but if it were found un-Constitutional tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

    I would ask this, however. At what point does a person forfeit their right to exist? Is there nothing that deserves the taking of a life? Is it the criminal's right to murder, rape, and destroy as much as s/he can until society catches him or her and incarcerates them? Is confinement sufficient punishment for any and all crimes? Should we provide shelter, nourishment, entertainment, and a life to those who have consciously decided to deprive others of a chance to live? I accept that others may answer "yes" to each of these questions. I cannot.

    In my opinion, whatever (if anything) capital punishment says about our society, its noise is drowned out by statements made by other ills of our society. However "brutish" the killing of a murderer is, it pales in comparison to the atrocities inflicted by the apathy we show families in our society. For example, a child entering Kindergarten today has a 1 in 4 chance of having the same two parents in the home when s/he graduates from High School. That, to me, says a LOT more about our society (and since I am a part of that society, about me) than capital punishment ever could.

    Anyway, the point here concerns irresponsible abuse of power- not capital punishment itself. If the governor wanted to end capital punishment in his state, he could have made that a plank in his platform and worked through legislative means. Simply pardoning convicted murderers and felons in the waning hours of office is cowardly, irresponsible, and is deserving of scorn.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  14. #14
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Pete Hanlin said:
    Simply pardoning convicted murderers and felons in the waning hours of office is cowardly, irresponsible, and is deserving of scorn.
    Surely you're not suggesting he shouldn't have pardoned the ones that were later found innocent, are you? As for the rest - he commuted their sentences to life in prison, he didn't pardon them. Personally I agree that he overstepped his authority in doing so, but I certainly wouldn't call this 'cowardly'.

    Plus Pete, I'm unclear on what the Biblical passages you quoted seem to say. My reading of those and the New Testament itself brings me to believe that Christ would never approve of capitasl punishment. But that's my interpretation. Is there anything in the NT that would indicate otherwise?


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  15. #15
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    I quoted the OT passage, because that was the one whose language was being questioned. The passage from the Beatitudes does seem to indicate that a Christian would indeed NOT take a "life for a life." However, if there is one thing we learn from the NT, it is this- Christians will often live within societies that may or may not hold Christian beliefs. Living as a Christian is affected, but not dictated by, this society.

    To make this case, look at the tiny book of Philemon. Onesimus is a slave that has ran away from Philemon's household and service to be with Paul. Does Paul rejoice over the liberation of this man who has been a slave (a slave to a fellow Christian, no less)? No, rather he returns him to Philemon with the request that he release Onesimus to his service.

    The question is this- would Christ condone slavery as an ideal form of human existance? Probably not, but your relationship with God transcends the fact that you find yourself in a society where you are a slave or a slave owner. I find myself in a society that chooses to use capital punishment to punish murderers. If I were the supreme lawmaker of this country, then I would have to balance my views as a Christian regarding justice and forgiveness against those of the country in which I had been elected. As it is, I don't personally base my voting decisions upon the candidate's stance on capital punishment, so you could say it is a non-issue for me.

    The basis for the charge of cowardice is this... regardless of how "noble" an action might be, taking it when there is no chance of reprecussions or personal responsibility is trite, meaningless, and well- cowardly! Why weren't these people's sentences commuted before now? Was it only in the very last month of his term that their innocence was made plain to this governor?

    Of course people should be pardoned if they are innocent. If a system can be proven to be extremely flawed, of course it should be examined and modified. I would suggest that this isn't what has happened here.

    Let me close with an example. Let's say I have loving and devoted children who have been kind to me throughout my life. I also have a huge fortune, and while my children are not lazy, they know my will leaves them the money and they know they will be provided for. Let us suppose that- in my last days of life- I become convicted that world hunger should be defeated and decide to give my money to UNICEF. I don't want to face my children's shock, however, so I say nothing about it until the last hour of my life when they are gathered around my sick bed.

    Now, I have done something noble- I have given hungry children money. However, I have acted as a coward, because I carried out my actions in such a way that I would be spared from any real consequence (after all, I will not be around to bear my children's surprise, shock, discomfort, etc.).

    That was my point...
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    Essilor of America

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