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Thread: Best device for accurate custom PAL measurements

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
    You need a Grolman Device.
    I so clearly remember AO Grolman. You're sure telling us our age...

  2. #27
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    Does anyone know where one can buy a Zeiss Frame Reference Tool? Or any of the frame reference tools? I don't need the Zeiss camera/i. terminal, I just need the device that attaches to the frames. Thanks.

  3. #28
    OptiBoardaholic Optical Roy's Avatar
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    Old school rules, pupillometer and pen, I feel the more electronic measurments you use the patient will begin to just do it themselves, doing it the old way maintains accuracy and builds patients confidence.
    Roy W. Jackson, Sr. ABOC

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    I worked at the LC also and was the remake captain and the accufit trainer at my store. That think is a hot mess if people don't use it right, and let me tell you, it was very rarely used right. My biggest thing was it took all common sense away! I would be doing final inspections, and there would be A LOT of pd's the differ by 5 mm, (which happen but 5x/day?), segs that were 3-5mm below the middle of the frame. I would go back and check people's measurements and sure enough, the pt's would be tilted way back, looking way down or the sensor would be so far from the center of the frame it was ridiculous. All of these products work as well at the grunt using them.
    I have never heard the term "remake captain" until today. Thanks for that!

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

  5. #30
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    The best device is going to be one where you are trained properly. If your not properly trained then it doesn't matter which method you use. We have an electronic method here and one of our employees refuses to try and learn how to use it. She claims it's not accurate although I've shown her that I get what she can get. To everyone their own I guess.

  6. #31
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    The "gold standard" was, and still is, the PD rule and muscle light.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    The "gold standard" was, and still is, the PD rule and muscle light.
    Says who? And what standard are we using to judge it?

  8. #33
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    Does anyone use the Eye Ruler 2, we are thinking of taking the plunge and getting one for our clinic.

    Top concern is accuracy.

  9. #34
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Weird - 35 years in, and I've never had a problem using nothing but my naked eye, a fine tip pen, and a simple splash of solid training/knowledge about fitting basics. Simple stuff like small adjustments for excessively tall/short individuals, how they use their eyes in their own unique day-to-day activities, and of course, the obvious: selecting a frame that actually works with PAL optics, and their facial anatomy.

    This ain't rocket science folks.

    *shrug*

  10. #35
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    $3,000 buys a lot of training by my wallet but if you need to dumb it down and can afford it why not?

    https://www.essilorinstrumentsusa.co...g/eye-ruler-2/

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    $3,000 buys a lot of training by my wallet but if you need to dumb it down and can afford it why not?

    https://www.essilorinstrumentsusa.co...g/eye-ruler-2/
    How do you think a digital measurement device makes it dumbed down?

    If you give this(or other digital device) to an untrained "dumb" person, you are still going to get "dumb" results.

  12. #37
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwill212 View Post
    How do you think a digital measurement device makes it dumbed down?

    If you give this(or other digital device) to an untrained "dumb" person, you are still going to get "dumb" results.
    Would simplified be a better description?

    I've never used one so if you think they are superior to old school measuring methods I'll stand corrected as I admire your knowledge.

    I've learned that much of what we do is art as much as science through the decades.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    $3,000 buys a lot of training by my wallet but if you need to dumb it down and can afford it why not?

    https://www.essilorinstrumentsusa.co...g/eye-ruler-2/
    The owner can afford it, sometimes our doctor days get very busy so we’re hoping to just take pictures of customers and figure out the adjustments afterwards for efficiency purposes.

  14. #39
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opticia_n View Post
    The owner can afford it, sometimes our doctor days get very busy so we’re hoping to just take pictures of customers and figure out the adjustments afterwards for efficiency purposes.
    I'd be leary of doing only a picture as you lose their natural posturing when you just have a picture to go by.

    I like to make a dot* while sitting then have them stand and ask they relax their head as they would in a conversation adjusting the placement accordingly.

    *For me the dot on the pupil base is my default height unless notes tell me otherwise.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Would simplified be a better description?

    I've never used one so if you think they are superior to old school measuring methods I'll stand corrected as I admire your knowledge.

    I've learned that much of what we do is art as much as science through the decades.
    A PD stick is a tool, a distometer is a tool, a digital measuring device is a tool. If you don't know how to use the tools it doesn't matter how fancy they are. A Ferrari doesn't turn a regular schmoe into a race car driver. But, I would say it is faster, it is more repeatable, it is less prone to error, it can be refered back to when ordering or cutting lenses if something doesn't seem right(typos or ordering errors), I can look back through measurement history for a patient since I started using mine 10 years ago, it is IMO more accurate(cue the great Santini to come in with a cryptic rhetorical about "but what is accurate, and how do we verify it?"). Also patients love it, they see it as far more high tech, and comment on it all the time.

    "wow, no one has ever done that before"

    "things sure are advanced these days aren't they"

    "Come a long way since the ruler and marker, huh?"

    I hear this every day while doing the measurements.

    The best one is after the picture and they look at it and then ask, "hey, what are all these numbers for?". Then I get to explain to them how we can use all of these numbers(POW measurements) to improve their visual experience. Then they ask why no one else takes all these measurements...

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I'd be leary of doing only a picture as you lose their natural posturing when you just have a picture to go by.

    I like to make a dot* while sitting then have them stand and ask they relax their head as they would in a conversation adjusting the placement accordingly.

    *For me the dot on the pupil base is my default height unless notes tell me otherwise.
    I can't comment on the Essilor unit in this thread. I have the Optikam Pad. The device has a built in sensor that detects pantoscopic tilt in real time. It also has a slot for 3 different postures on each measurement. I can rarely capture people in their natural posture while directing them to "just sit naturally". But I can hit the capture tilt button at any time while having them sit/stand/walk/play an instrument/take a shooting stance, etc. I can do this without them knowing I did it to get them in their actual natural posture. Often, with manual or digital measurements when I ask for someone to sit natural or just look straight ahead, they invariably stiffen up and tip their chin way up. I ask to tip down slightly and now they are looking at the floor.

    But for me it really is about speed, efficiency and accuracy. It's fast, it works, and patients like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    $3,000 buys a lot of training by my wallet
    They shouldn't be considered in the same budget conversation. I don't see how the two correlate. $3,000 also buys a lot of copy paper, or stock lenses, lens cleaner, or nose pads.

  16. #41
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Uncle Fester needs an OptiBoard Go Fund Me page!!!

    Thanks Kwill for the schooling and not the scolding.

  17. #42
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    There can be a difference between capturing the natural pantoscopic tilt of a frame and the natural (head and neck) posture of the individual. Often they can be the same. But more often they differ.

    Pantoscopic tilt is what’s is used to align the lens surface and image shell properly.

    Natural postural tilt is used as a factor to influence the optician’s choice of fitting height.

    B

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I'd be leary of doing only a picture as you lose their natural posturing when you just have a picture to go by.

    I like to make a dot* while sitting then have them stand and ask they relax their head as they would in a conversation adjusting the placement accordingly.

    *For me the dot on the pupil base is my default height unless notes tell me otherwise.
    Unfortunately I’m too short to have people stand and check their heights.

    What i do is ask people to lower their head all the way down and than ask them to bring their head back up and usually that is their normal resting position.

    I also engage in conversation like you mentioned and they naturally conform to their normal resting position.

    Do you typically ask them to try the glasses on and off multiple times to make sure they wear the glasses on the same spot every time?

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