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Thread: Best device for accurate custom PAL measurements

  1. #1
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    Best device for accurate custom PAL measurements

    I feel very out of date using my sharpie and pupillometer for PAL measurements. Any opinions on the best device for capturing panto, seg ht, and frame wrap for custom digital PAL's. Optikam vs Spectangle vs ??

    Thank you!!

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    You'll need both. Trust me.

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    None of the machines exceed the accuracy of manual measurements. Think about it. Do you trust the PD on an auto-refactor when the patients head and chin is fixed? There is no way a machine from 5 feet away can take more accurate measurements.
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy ~Benjamin Franklin

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    I've begun using the Optikam here...I'm not feeling like I can trust it yet though. Even so far as a PD...there are times where I'll get say...34/31 with the Optikam and when I lay that out on the frame it'll manually measure more like 32/33...I can clearly see that the marks I put onto the lenses from the Optikam do not line up. What gives? Anyone out there have overwhelming positive experience/accuracy with the Optikam? I'm also having trouble getting measurements that seem believable with the Optikam when it comes to Panto.

    I want to trust it ...but, as yet...I don't. :-(

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    Get good at manually measuring frame wrap, account for the "stretching" of frames on certain patients noggins (flex metal frames). Panto measure with one of those little weighted doohickies that you tilt, take seg and PD. Check seg sitting, standing and reading. I just measure the vertex using a ruler and the patients open eyes. This has worked well for me. Getting good at accurately measuring frame wrap and Panto is the most important, with the occasional deep set eyeball/large nose combos that love a good vertex measurement.

    I'm also waiting for the awesome device but I haven't seen it yet.

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    Have you used the Optikam?

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    I think we were using that system at Lenscrafters 4 years ago if I am not mistaken but they called it something else. With the clip on green dot things for the glasses right? I also used them at Vision Expo in a demo, but no I am looking for an awesome device. I'm just starting to see positive reviews of it posted on here, and optiboard is my no BS filter for this kind of stuff, once I see people I respect using it regularly I will as well.

    Honestly, just like the OP, I feel like I should have one but don't know which one to even think about buying.

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    We use an iPad one, from walman.... Spectek (sp?) looks like the luzerne one is the same thing.

    I have had zero issues with it. Have been super impressed with it and the PT's like it that we arent using markers anymore.

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    Yes, the one with the Green Sensors and the pendulum. I will continue to use it but remain skeptical and will continue to verify some of my measurements manually to check for consistency. Slim...have you manually checked measurements to see that You and Optikam agree?

    Definitely the Patients are impressed by it...it should be an impressive tool to pull out of one's bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsalman14 View Post
    I feel very out of date using my sharpie and pupillometer for PAL measurements. Any opinions on the best device for capturing panto, seg ht, and frame wrap for custom digital PAL's. Optikam vs Spectangle vs ??

    Thank you!!
    I've been using a distometer for vertex, Shamir's panoramic angle measurement tool for PA's, and CSC's hand held gauge for PT. If anyone accuses me being," out of date", I'd take my buggy whip to them.
    I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it. Mark Twain

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    yeah I did Chris... for the first few weeks I would "spot check" results. been using it since March I think.

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    I worked at LensCrafters for a while and we had the .... whatever it was called... it's really a shame we were instructed to tell the customers we were the only people that had that technology, which clearly based on these 3 companies is a lie. Anyway it's very accurate never had any problem with it besides customers who can't remember how they normally hold their head and would tilt it way up or down and refuse to adjust. I can't believe these programs cost $1,500 to $3,000 when pretty much the same exact technology is available for free. The program works by knowing the distance between two green dots is say 3 inches so whether you're 10 feet or 10 inches away it adjusts accordingly.

    But on the iphone free app market i can buy a program that will give me measurements as long as I have a reference distance in the picture. For example a credit card, ruler, ect, then it does literally the same thing (san's vertex distance) as these $3,000 programs :( Hmmm

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    @Slim Any reason you went with the walman over the spectangle when it's 4-5 times as much? Primary difference i see is the attachment vs holding a ruler up
    Last edited by sdgibbs; 08-11-2015 at 05:39 PM.

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    I worked at the LC also and was the remake captain and the accufit trainer at my store. That think is a hot mess if people don't use it right, and let me tell you, it was very rarely used right. My biggest thing was it took all common sense away! I would be doing final inspections, and there would be A LOT of pd's the differ by 5 mm, (which happen but 5x/day?), segs that were 3-5mm below the middle of the frame. I would go back and check people's measurements and sure enough, the pt's would be tilted way back, looking way down or the sensor would be so far from the center of the frame it was ridiculous. All of these products work as well at the grunt using them.

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    You need a Grolman Device.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sdgibbs View Post
    @Slim Any reason you went with the walman over the spectangle when it's 4-5 times as much? Primary difference i see is the attachment vs holding a ruler up

    Well, we were looking at the VisiOffice, and the optikam since it is well talked about on here... Visi would have to wait will our new building is up as we didnt have room for it and the space to back the PT up... Optikam was more expensive than the walman deal. My rep brought one by and compared it to my manual measurements and was spot on. So for 1500, plus and iPad I thought it was a good step to take Plus the Doc forgets his ipad that he uses for EHR once in a while lol... also I havent heard of the spectangle...

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    The Optikam device is terrific when properly trained people use it correctly. Having a captured image/photo from Optikam of each customer measurement is great for training when a question arises about the measurements that were used for ordering a pair of glasses. Try having that same conversation when a pupilometer, felt tip pen and ruler were used (much gets lost in that conversation). When inappropriately used it will be a challenge like any other device.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optician1960 View Post
    The Optikam device is terrific when properly trained people use it correctly. Having a captured image/photo from Optikam of each customer measurement is great for training when a question arises about the measurements that were used for ordering a pair of glasses. Try having that same conversation when a pupilometer, felt tip pen and ruler were used (much gets lost in that conversation). When inappropriately used it will be a challenge like any other device.


    We have abandoned the old Zeiss i-terminal. Nice marketing tool but slows the sales process and is inaccurate. Too bad...

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter ak47's Avatar
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    Yeah, I know its an old thread...but does anyone have experience with the newest Hoya version, the Spectangle Pro ? How consistent is it and does the EY-stick really work to get natural posture measurements?

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    "I've been using a distometer for vertex, Shamir's panoramic angle measurement tool for PA's, and CSC's hand held gauge for PT. If anyone accuses me being," out of date", I'd take my buggy whip to them."


    I want to be like you when I grow up!!!!!
    Last edited by sanswhitecoat; 12-05-2015 at 01:09 PM.

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    My wife just picked up a Lytro a couple months back, which is a new camera technology called 'light field'. It's a pretty new concept in photography circles, but also seems like it might be a useful concept in increasing accuracy in automated ophthalmic fitting systems as well. A quick Google will offer up mountains of information of how it works, but in short, it uses many multiple images from slightly different angles to allow photographic changes in depth of field, focus and angle. It seems that a relatively simple computer algorithm could be written to utilize the parallax information such a system provides to compute extremely accurate and highly reproducible PD, panto, vertex and wrap measurements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sdgibbs View Post
    ...But on the iphone free app market i can buy a program that will give me measurements as long as I have a reference distance in the picture. For example a credit card, ruler, ect, then it does literally the same thing (san's vertex distance) as these $3,000 programs :( Hmmm
    I've seen these free Apps tested in an actual study, they weren't even close. You get what you pay for.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
    You need a Grolman Device.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I use the Optikampad and have had great success. Patients seem to really appreciate the technology and we had found the measurements extremely accurate.
    I would never go back to manually measuring.

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    At our office we use the M'eye Fit Touch. It works great!But of course, knowing how to take the measurements manually goes a long way when using the newer instruments. It only makes sense to use such devices with the custom progressives that are being sold nowadays.

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