Thinking about giving Zeiss lenses another shot

[Tallboy]

I'm looking for reviews on Zeiss lenses, their new coatings in particular:

I met with a Zeiss rep yesterday and was impressed, I think I'm going to give their PALs and digital SV another shot. Probably will be using the Boston lab, they were giving me very competitive prices on high end lens designs.

I had a bad experience with a certain local Zeiss lab 3 years ago and soured me on them.

I have no concerns with the quality of their PALs and compensations (anyone who had the Meister Man working for them is okay in my book).

The things I don't like are:
1: That stupid Zeiss man cut out at Walmart optical, I hate that.

2: Their AR coatings, are the new ones better? Purecoat was gorgeous but not as durable or easy to clean after 6 months as I would want.

I'm excited to try their lab for a number of reasons, I'm also hesitant in switching from my indy lab - though I feel Zeiss could be a powerful partner for the medical side of the business.

[Uilleann]

My previous experience tells me much of what you already know.

In general:
1. expensive
2. LOADS of durability issues with their AR
3. expensive
4. sell outs

In short, there are Zeiss branded lenses popping up everywhere and on everything from cheap cameras, and ski goggles, to silly marketing ploys like Gunnar "computer/gamer" glasses, and big box retail and discount chains.

It feels like the Carl Zeiss Vision division has been more interested in the highest (or largest volume) bidders, rather than trying to truly cultivate their original premium niche in private offices.

YMMV as always...

[AngeHamm]

In an industry increasingly dominated by Essilor's direct-to-consumer marketing strategies, I can't find it in myself to blame Zeiss for working hard to increase their market share anywhere they can. And, for the record, Zeiss lenses are also showing up in high-end cameras, not just cheap ones.

The best lenses I've ever owned are Zeiss, and I've had no problems with durability.

[EyeCare Rich]

Totally agree with AngeHamm here. It's a tough world out there, gotta do what you can to survive. I love Zeiss as well as Hoya, both very supportive of my small practice. Zeiss Lenses are awesome, both the SV and all their Prg lens assortment. The newest rendition of A/R is very durable and very slick. I didn't have the issues with Purecoat that you evidently had. The only coating that was a let down for me was Teflon, a Sola product they inherited. As to the Gunnar product, Zeiss was approched by Gunnar, not the other way around.

Good luck with your decision Tallboy, I don't think you will be let down by Zeiss though.

[Barry Santini]

Your mission in today's brand-driven market is to make *your* brand as important as the branded item you choose to carry.

You can buy Koehler anywhere. Create a want to buy Koehler from you.

B.

[Craig]

We only offer the Eyetopian lenses! There is no choice of brand, coating or material; we decide what they get and it works for us.
We do not offer anything but the best and everyone gets the same lenses whether you get a $99 frame or a $3,000 Maybach.

I am under the impression if it wasn't for trying to get an extra $5 from an insurance program; we would all just give them a decent product at a fair price.

I have compared many different brands over the years and have never had a major difference until we used the IOT/ Younger Camber product. The lens is now our favorite and costs me 1/3 less than the name brand products.
We use a no-name ar that goes thru the Crizal machines but cost me 2/3 less than the branded version.

[EyeManFla]

We just switched to Zeiss the beginning of the month. Are they expensive...I guess it depends on the deal you cut with Zeiss. Quality-wise, I have no issue. NOW, ask me the same question six months from now.

[Chris Ryser]

It feels like the Carl Zeiss Vision division has been more interested in the highest (or largest volume) bidders, rather than trying to truly cultivate their original premium niche in private offices.

You are totally right saying that.

However there is also another reasoning, that a manufacturer wants to and has to sell as much his manufactured goods as he can.

To serve the niche of private offices takes more time, effort and sales people, than working with large accounts and serving them well.

Everyone on management and in sales of any optical manufacturer just about dreams every night, of landing one of the big accounts on his books.

Zeiss, as far as I know has stayed away from entering the optical on-line retail business and sticked to supply their lenses through the traditional optical retail market. We should not blame them for trying to gain some some large accounts in the field.

[Robert Martellaro]

I'm looking for reviews on Zeiss lenses, their new coatings in particular:

I met with a Zeiss rep yesterday and was impressed, I think I'm going to give their PALs and digital SV another shot. Probably will be using the Boston lab, they were giving me very competitive prices on high end lens designs.

I had a bad experience with a certain local Zeiss lab 3 years ago and soured me on them.

I have no concerns with the quality of their PALs and compensations (anyone who had the Meister Man working for them is okay in my book).

The things I don't like are:
1: That stupid Zeiss man cut out at Walmart optical, I hate that.

2: Their AR coatings, are the new ones better? Purecoat was gorgeous but not as durable or easy to clean after 6 months as I would want.

I'm excited to try their lab for a number of reasons, I'm also hesitant in switching from my indy lab - though I feel Zeiss could be a powerful partner for the medical side of the business.

A "Zeiss Man" cardboard cutout at Walmart Vision? Hopefully he's dressed better than the average Walmart patron. I believe Zeiss is providing Walmart with their "Digital" line of lenses with adds up to only +1.00.

http://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/en_...mart-lens.html

If they're selling general purpose PALs to Walmart or Sam's club, I would expect they're the GT2s or a significantly dumbed down version of their Premium line of lenses.

To new to say about Purecoat+. However, it should perform about the same as Essilor's Crizal/Avance due to shared technologies.

http://www.visionmonday.com/latest-n...ologies-36417/

A review of the Precision 17mm and 19mm, and the Individual 2 Balanced and 2N are coming soon to the "Eyecare Professionals Only" forum.

[Chris Ryser]

2: Their AR coatings, are the new ones better? Purecoat was gorgeous but not as durable or easy to clean after 6 months as I would want.

Time to learn something.................

The easy clean, or hydrophobic top coating is a totally different process from the AR coating itself.

First you apply the AR coating and then you add another coat of the "easy clean" material of which there quite a few on the market. Some of them last a bit longer than others, it also depends, if the final owner cleans the lenses with sand paper, they will not last very long. So actually you can not measure it, because it is out of your hands.

There are now also after market coats available once the surface gets dull.

You can not judge an AR coating by its last topcoat.

[David_Garza]

Why anyone would want to align their Opticals with the Big 3 Essilor, HOYA or Zeiss is beyond me.....I agree with Barry, find a House brand you are happy with and market your brand, not some mass produced brand anyone can get anywhere.

[ml43]

Time to learn something.................

The easy clean, or hydrophobic top coating is a totally different process from the AR coating itself.

First you apply the AR coating and then you add another coat of the "easy clean" material of which there quite a few on the market. Some of them last a bit longer than others, it also depends, if the final owner cleans the lenses with sand paper, they will not last very long. So actually you can not measure it, because it is out of your hands.

There are now also after market coats available once the surface gets dull.

You can not judge an AR coating by its last topcoat.

nice to see a good post from Chris, where he isn't selling something ;)

This is the truth

You can put a super hydrophobic top coat on a single layer AR.

You can even get a dip/wipe/spray on hydrophobic coating to exceed 130 degrees of contact angle.

[EyeCare Rich]

Why anyone would want to align their Opticals with the Big 3 Essilor, HOYA or Zeiss is beyond me.....I agree with Barry, find a House brand you are happy with and market your brand, not some mass produced brand anyone can get anywhere.

That's not how I interpret what Barry said. I'm understanding his statement to mean differentiate yourself and make the proper lens for the patient in front of you at the time. Sell yourself (the services, personality and relationship)not the brand of product you make.

Nothing wrong with selling from the big 3 you mention, but more important you are using the right product for the right patient.

What "House Brand" can keep up with the R&D of those big 3 (which I prefer Hoya and Zeiss over the 3rd you mention)? I assume you will refer to IOT, which is also a fantastic lens designer, and won't be small for long.

Correct me if I'm wrong Barry, but you sell Zeiss and Essilor/Varilux lenses don't you? Your patient may not know it, but that is what is ultimatly being produced? What the patient hears is that they are getting the best lens for their individual needs???? That is how I approach the conversation.

[Tallboy]

Thanks for the info guys.

*** Barry and Craig - this is essentially what I do, brands mean little in my office, though we do have some demos for crizal and transitions. I rarely if ever discuss who designs the lens/coating/etc. 90% of the time if they are sitting across from me we are there to figure out a $ figure and then I give them the best they can get for their RX and lifestyle, budget, sometimes its a house design, sometimes Shamir, Essilor, Zeiss etc.

*** Chris and ml43 You are both stalwart discreditors of modern brand name coatings, I really respect your ideas - and Chris I know some of your coating products are now used by car manufacturers. I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to do that wipe coat only thing though. Chris why not give me a sample of your product and I'll test it for you? I would hope that you have testimonials. ml43 how long does that dip/wipe last? 4 months? 6 months? Top level coatings from Crizal last 2 years in the cleanability department. My clients know we don't F around with what coatings we use, whether they are house/Crizal or Zeiss.


*** Robert, thanks for the info. And Zeiss Man was dressed in his blue spandex jump suit and he is "holding" a basket of cleaning wipes.

*** Thanks to everyone else, I'll let you guys know how it works out for me but there is no way in H**L I'm ditching my independent lab. As for those of you who PM'd me I'll get back to you in a bit I've been slammed at work (Thankfully).

[ml43]

*** Chris and ml43 You are both stalwart discreditors of modern brand name coatings, I really respect your ideas - and Chris I know some of your coating products are now used by car manufacturers. I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to do that wipe coat only thing though. Chris why not give me a sample of your product and I'll test it for you? I would hope that you have testimonials. ml43 how long does that dip/wipe last? 4 months? 6 months? Top level coatings from Crizal last 2 years in the cleanability department. My clients know we don't F around with what coatings we use, whether they are house/Crizal or Zeiss.

I like brand name coatings, due to the ability to order the same thing from multiple labs and have them all come back roughly the same, and they should all carry the same warranty.

However, I don't like the marketing strategy.
(i.e. bring out a new product every other year and increase the price)

Like Chris always says, you cannot rate a lens durability or cleanability in months, it has to be a function of pressure vs wipes. Contamination also plays a role.

I'm not saying crizal is a bad coating.
I'm just saying if you're going to rate an AR coating in terms of cleanability, you can order generic AR and get the cleanability above and beyond what crizal has.

I'd also like to note that in other industries, superhydrophobic means a contact angle in excess of 150 degrees(water will bead off and the substrate will come out perfectly dry)
However, in ophthalmic optics, a contact angle over 130 degrees and you increase your edger slippage by about 20-30%(bad for labs).

[Chris Ryser]

*** Chris and ml43 You are both stalwart discreditors of modern brand name coatings, I really respect your ideas - and Chris I know some of your coating products are now used by car manufacturers.

I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to do that wipe coat only thing though. Chris why not give me a sample of your product and I'll test it for you?

I would hope that you have testimonials. ml43 how long does that dip/wipe last? 4 months? 6 months? Top level coatings from Crizal last 2 years in the cleanability department. My clients know we don't F around with what coatings we use, whether they are house/Crizal or Zeiss.

(Thankfully).

What are your qualifications to test such a material ? It has been used by some manufacturers by quantities to do millions of pairs over the last 20 or so years, and you might probably have tested it yourself many times before.

My ZeroFog was tested by OptiBoard Members in the years 2003 and found it to be a mediocre product at :

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...hlight=ZeroFog

while a major industrial manufacturer applied it on electronic automotive instruments in 2004 and has expanded the use into over 35 major car brands by this date.

However there are ways of protecting commercial deals by way of non- disclosure agreements, which have been used in the optical industry for many years.

[Tallboy]

However, I don't like the marketing strategy.
(i.e. bring out a new product every other year and increase the price)
Like Chris always says, you cannot rate a lens durability or cleanability in months, it has to be a function of pressure vs wipes. Contamination also plays a role.
.

Well I've been paying the same for Crizal Avance for at least 4 years, so thats pretty good I guess. Other products like Prevencia, well they cost more if you use them.

I respectfully disagree with the assessment that you cannot rate a lens durability or cleanbility in months, you surely can by aggregating reviews of lens cleanability and inspecting lenses after different amounts of months. Sure there are different factors that affect how long these products last but this real world data is more valuable to me than a laboratory pressure+wipe# ratio which is more valuable to a coating developer. I just want to know what lasts year after year. I dispense tons of glasses, I know what the lenses look like a year later, I remember this. Sure call me out on confirmation bias if you want.

I'd also like to note that in other industries, superhydrophobic means a contact angle in excess of 150 degrees(water will bead off and the substrate will come out perfectly dry)
However, in ophthalmic optics, a contact angle over 130 degrees and you increase your edger slippage by about 20-30%(bad for labs).

Hydrophobic is great, but its Super-Oleophobic and Scratch resitance combined that really matter. After 1 year, among the lenses I've seen, I know there are certain ones that kept their Oleophobic properties more than others. You mentioned spray/wipe on coatings that would be MORE cleanable than Crizal ml43, thats great - but will they be 6 months later? I know Pesch has a great in house coating.


And Chris - I'm qualified in testing a lens coating because I dispense tons of lenses and see what works and what doesn't. Anecdotal testimonies are important, sterile lab settings are nice, but car electronics ain't Bufords greasy glasses.

My point is that I noticed a huge difference in the qualities of the older Zeiss coatings against Crizal. I hope and hear that this is no longer the case, I will see. Thanks all for your opinions.

[ml43]

my point about brand name AR pricing is this.

Crizal came out, it was X amount,
Then Alize came out with an X increase,
Then Avance came out with an X increase,
Then Sapphire, then Prevencia, again with another increase.

When will it end? Soon AR coatings will cost more than the frame and lens combined, in some cases they already do.

As for durability/cleanability(sp?) measured in months, I find that to be a really hard thing to test and validate.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's a bit like measuring paint or tire durability in months, not that people don't do it.


most newer "super hydrophobic" coatings are also oleophobic as well as "phobic" to many other substances, not just water and hydrocarbons. As for scratch resistance, that's more of an unintended result of having a surface that has a lower coefficient of friction.


as for spray/wipe on coatings and duration/life span.
That really depends on the application process, the surface of the base substrate, age of the solution, etc...

Think about it this way, there are many other applications for super hydrophobic coatings(excess of 150 degrees of contact angle) and many use a spray/wipe on application.


As for Zeiss coatings, I think you'll like all the new ones.
As far as I know, they all have a foundation coating(dip/thermo cured)
And a much better top coat than before.

[Chris Ryser]

Well I've been paying the same for Crizal Avance for at least 4 years, so thats pretty good I guess. Other products like Prevencia, well they cost more if you use them.

Have you ever questioned the cost of material that is put into AR coating a lens, whatever fancy the name is, that the coating carries ?

I am daily wearing the same Swiss watch for 20 years by now, a "Rado Jubile" that cost me close to $ 3,000, and the lens still has not one minute scratch on it.

My wife has also one, casing and wristband made from composite ceramic, not a scratch or mark anywhere after 10 years of daily wear.

The Questions is that a lot of technology used in the eyeglass trade, is way behind many other fields, and any advancement is sold a big time prices it does not merit.

I respectfully disagree with the assessment that you cannot rate a lens durability or cleanbility in months, you surely can by aggregating reviews of lens cleanability and inspecting lenses after different amounts of months.

I dispense tons of glasses, I know what the lenses look like a year later, I remember this. Sure call me out on confirmation bias if you want.

As you sell tons of glasses, you will sell them to tons of people and you will never have the time or nor effort to follow their way of life and how they treat their glasses.

Some of them will wash them and others clean them with sand paper and all will claim they follow your advice give and point of purchase.

Hydrophobic is great, but its Super-Oleophobic and Scratch resitance combined that really matter.

AR coating layers on a lens:

1. Basic plastic lens

2. Hard coat that will adhere to plastic lens, plus the SIO2, (base material
of AR coating = glass)

3. AR coating ingredients, (can be multi layers)

4. Hydrophobic layer, (whatever you want to call it, as oleophobic,
greasephobic, and so forth as you wish).

5. PAF, Permanent renewable anti-fog coating, (latest invention coming on
coming on market)

After 1 year, among the lenses I've seen, I know there are certain ones that kept their Oleophobic properties more than others.

Yes, but you have had no control during year on how people were treating and cleaning their glasses, as the women that cleans them with the bottom of their skirt, and the men with their ties and many other possible ways.

And Chris - I'm qualified in testing a lens coating because I dispense tons of lenses and see what works and what doesn't. Anecdotal testimonies are important, sterile lab settings are nice, but car electronics ain't Bufords greasy glasses.

Tallboy I have never said that car electronics have Bufords greasy glasses.
I have said that they are now using AntiFog coatings.

My point is that I noticed a huge difference in the qualities of the older Zeiss coatings against Crizal. I hope and hear that this is no longer the case, I will see. Thanks all for your opinions.

Essilor has used a Japanese made hard coat which was better than what everybody else had. I am certain that by now their competition has caught up with them.

[David_Garza]

my point about brand name AR pricing is this.

Crizal came out, it was X amount,
Then Alize came out with an X increase,
Then Avance came out with an X increase,
Then Sapphire, then Prevencia, again with another increase.

When will it end? Soon AR coatings will cost more than the frame and lens combined, in some cases they already do.

1+

A/Rs have become so durable that if they typically will outlast the RX for most patients.
(Great if your RX is stable, but a waste of money if Rx changes year over year(s). That's another thread altogether.)

[sharpstick777]

Although Zeiss makes some decent progressives, they only use 2 shapes, the T distance and the Fountain shape. Your left with a lot of lens design holes in your product mix. The Individual and Choice are great lenses, but it puts only one driver and one iron in your golf bag. You still need another brand or 2 to cover other options.

And as Uillleann added:

My previous experience tells me much of what you already know.

In general:
1. expensive
2. LOADS of durability issues with their AR
3. expensive
4. sell outs

In short, there are Zeiss branded lenses popping up everywhere and on everything from cheap cameras, and ski goggles, to silly marketing ploys like Gunnar "computer/gamer" glasses, and big box retail and discount chains.

It feels like the Carl Zeiss Vision division has been more interested in the highest (or largest volume) bidders, rather than trying to truly cultivate their original premium niche in private offices.

YMMV as always...

[Prentice Pro 9000]

I'm looking for reviews on Zeiss lenses, their new coatings in particular:

I met with a Zeiss rep yesterday and was impressed, I think I'm going to give their PALs and digital SV another shot. Probably will be using the Boston lab, they were giving me very competitive prices on high end lens designs.

I had a bad experience with a certain local Zeiss lab 3 years ago and soured me on them.

I have no concerns with the quality of their PALs and compensations (anyone who had the Meister Man working for them is okay in my book).

The things I don't like are:
1: That stupid Zeiss man cut out at Walmart optical, I hate that.

2: Their AR coatings, are the new ones better? Purecoat was gorgeous but not as durable or easy to clean after 6 months as I would want.

I'm excited to try their lab for a number of reasons, I'm also hesitant in switching from my indy lab - though I feel Zeiss could be a powerful partner for the medical side of the business.

I hate Zeiss. Their reps don't know s***. Their jobs have pits all the time. They hassle you about returns. They charge too much for a product that is about to be surpassed. Their product lines are confusing. 1.74 Surfaced has to come from Germany. They're a lot slower than other labs. Their lenses always come out too thick. They don't have a dual-surfaced lens, so on plus jobs you're always going to end up with a super-high BC. Their top of the line lens doesn't even allow you to select a corridor because, god forbid, I might actually have an idea as to where I want the NRP. THEY DON'T EVEN DO G15!!!! WTF?!?!?!?!?