Need help picking patternless edger?

[aaron]

Hello everyone. New to this so bear with me. We are looking for a patternless edger before the end of the year for tax purposes. Either way I have never looked into the subject before now and am not to proud to admit that I am fairly lost. The sales reps are all equally pleasant and informative, however I see no real diferance between features or capabilities. Is there one that is better than another? If so, is it really worth the price differance if any? And would it be possable to get used equipment for a substantial discount without all the "used car" type worries. I appreciate any input on the matter and hope to be able to speak to many of you. Thank you for your time!!!

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[JandJOPT]

I use a Horizon III and works great. you can
probably pick one up used pretty cheap.
then call Elison Tech. and get set up with
their retro. you can probably pick one up
for around $3500.
With that combo you can't go wrong.

[aaron]

What about all these things I hear about Santinelli/Nidek? Are they that good because all of the labs I have spoken to really seem to be on their jock!!

[JandJOPT]

aaron said:
What about all these things I hear about Santinelli/Nidek? Are they that good because all of the labs I have spoken to really seem to be on their jock!!

We'll i've got a broke down Santinelli if that
say's anything. I just like the horizon because it's
a dry edger. Easy clean up no water, just change the
bags & the blades every once in a while.
and with the elison tracer usually can do a job in
one or two cuts. you can also adjust the bevel in
my opinon alot easier while the jobs going.
It will really do a good job when you have to get the bevel
twords the front of the lens. Like on Easy Clip frames.

:bbg:

[dpaul]

Aaron

My two cents.

I have personally used three patternless edgers.

Santinelli 7070SX -- Good but lacked a "fragile" setting. This can be a problem on some A/R coated high index. It's possible this has been corrected on newer models.

Briot Accura -- Overall good. Some "extras" (groove and safety bevel) somewhat less than perfect. I still use my groover most of the time.

Gerber-Coburn Kappa -- A winner. Easy to use, accurate, everything works and it holds its settings.

Hope this helps a little.

[optdsn]

I agree the Kappa is the best available, perfect out of the box and you don't have to worry, it will be right.

[Nabil Zaki]

Aaron

I have personally used the weco 2-D ,easy to use, accurate,

hard work,it will be right.

[aaron]

Thanks alot ya'll,
will defininetly get to work on your suggestions. Appreciate the time ....... :)

[Homer]

I have had a Gamma for 5 years and still love it. If I were to buy a new one today it would be between the Kappa and the Briot Axcell (sp?) The weight is on the side of the Axcell because it can automaticlly alter the shape - say 2 mm deeper - pretty neat concept.

Don't try to do too much with the edger leave the drills, safety bevels and perhaps even the grooving to auxrilary units - they can be more controlled.

[shanbaum]

Homer said:
The weight is on the side of the Axcell because it can automaticlly alter the shape - say 2 mm deeper - pretty neat concept.

..which can be done with Innovations software, and any patternless edger.

[aaron]

In the past few days I have used a few differant instruments. For not just the money the AIT MAXIMA seemed allright. Its a product of Spain and I know in the past some junk has come out of there. But people I talked to sounded very pleased. Does anyone have an opinion about this machine. (kind of a silly question right?)
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[Jeff Trail]

Arron,

First thing to consider is what you want it to do, second the price, is the volume you want to do worth the price of a new unit or a used one (they do have great deals on used equipment, buyers market)
Next, most people have not really used a wide range of edgers (patternless) out there because of the expense so that is why the vast majority say "this one works great" and that is the one the have :-) They just never used others..
Now let me tell you as a wholesaler who hears from a wide variety of people, I have not seen ANY of them that made everyone happy (all different reasons) I have seen about everyone of them have some type of trouble same machines but at different locations.. it is almost luck of the draw, every maker is going to have some machines that just is a bad apple from the time you open the crate..:-) ...
What you CAN do is get some of these companies come in and give you a loaner to try out.. I did that when finding the patternless systems for my lab ..one thing I really liked and looked for is electric chucking system that is pressure sensitive...nice on these fragile high indexes and AR coats..
I think it is just as important to ask further questions as well, I know being a wholesaler my volume is probably higher than yours so I went in asking "if I had a problem and the machine would be down for more than a a couple of days I want a loaner until my machine is fixed", wanted to know how fast they could get someone there to fix a problem, and where they worked out of..was it in my State?..was it one tech taking care of 5 states or a whole region or what.. :-)
I also requested to see the manuals on every machine that came in I tried to see how easy it was when it came time for me to do the fixing and calibrating... I also asked for a parts book and a list of prices.. checked on any place where I could get parts other than from the manufactuer, and were parts like wheels etc., only avialable from them etc., etc..
It is a big investment for most people so you want to try to cover every angle you can... I would contact companies and see which ones were willing to work with you on a "loaner" basis to let you give them a try at your place, not just a show room or trade show where they person using it is a employee of that company who undestands the machine completely, which you won't be for a while :-).. now the majority are going to want you to buy THEIR system they just let you try, but be patient and try as many as possible before weighing all the plus/minus and than choose that machine based on a list of reasons.. not just a recommendation of one person.. what you feel comfortable with the guy next to you might say "that is garbage" :-)

Jeff "been through it..once to often" Trail

[Homer]

The Maxima I looked at 3 years ago has been improved. It was OK then and probably better now.

The great point about the Maxima is that it is distributed and serviced by a Family owne company. They are great people. The Father is the Father of AIT.

The also have a simpler version, that has less bells and whistles and a lesser price. Looks like a work horse to me.

Jeff's comments are good. Most problems can often be traced to the skill of the operators and maintenance.

Good luck

[Homer]

shanbaum said:
..which can be done with Innovations software, and any patternless edger.

Tell me more. I am not a computer whiz and am not familiar with Innovations software.

[Wes Trayner]

You can do it on any digital tracer with Optivision software also.

[shanbaum]

Homer said:
Tell me more. I am not a computer whiz and am not familiar with Innovations software.

That's our lab package, which comes in several editions, one of which (Innovations Edge) is intended for use in finishing-only labs. It has a Trace Manager utility that lets you resize and/or reshape tracings, and maintain a library of stored shapes.

You can resize tracings by changing the A or B dimension, or the circumference, and reshape them by changing the A and B independently. The change in B can also be applied exclusively to the lower or upper half of the shape.

[Homer]

Would I be correct in assuming that this system would be quite out of reach for a small in-office finishing system with only one edger?

Thanks for the insights.

[gebe33]

I have tried quite a few and most are good if working well but for overall quality and ease of use I like the Kappa the best.
Good luck

[shanbaum]

Homer said:
Would I be correct in assuming that this system would be quite out of reach for a small in-office finishing system with only one edger?

Thanks for the insights.

I'm not sure what we charge for Edge - I think it's pretty cheap. We normally use it for receiving jobs sent from remote branches (which have only tracers) to a branch that has at least one edger but no surfacing.

Your friendly Gerber Coburn rep could tell you what it costs (though as I think about it, I'd lay odds that he'll call me and make me find out...)

[Optical Plumber]

shanbaum said:
..which can be done with Innovations software, and any patternless edger.

In addition, DVI, Optifacts, OMICS, .... and probably other Lab software packages also have this capability.

Terry
:)

[Ruth]

Hi, everyone!

I'm brand new tonite to this site, just learned about it because I was hoping to ask opinions about anyone's experience with the Santinelli 9000SX (I've been having wierd trouble with it.)

But I can tell you I had (still have it in the back room) a Horizon III, which I decided to replace last year because my tech was sooo frustrated with it...kept losing its settings. It also didn't polish poly as well as promised, and created a lot of stress fractures on AR.

Now the Santinelli polishes beautifully, never (I think) created a stress fracture, and grooves a poly nice and clean, but...

They can't seem to calibrate it as perfectly as we'd expect for PD, size, bevel placement, and axis, and worse: it goes haywire once in a blue moon and creates mysterious pits in lens surfaces or, for no reason switches in midstream, edging a right lens just fine, with a bevel as ordered, then cuts the left as rimless (therefor too small and ruined), while it still shows itself to be set for bevelling.

Worst, their technicians are clueless as to how to fix it. Do I have a lemon, or what?

Anybody have any comments or similar experience?

It's less than a year old; can I demand my money back? In which case, where do I go from here (back in Aaron's shoes)?

Thanks for any advice, opinions, etc!

Ruth

[LENNY]

Ruth!

I have heard of the same problems that you described.
But it was quite some time ago when they just started with that model.
I personaly have an old 7070 that had some problems from the beginning. Some of them were fixed some not.
Iw ould demand from Santinelli that they fix all the problems. Unfortunately i dont think that your particular edger has the problem.
Try to find somebody there who knows what they dooing.
They have those people.

I think we also have on our board a Representative from Santinelli.
Lets se if he enlighten us on those problems

[Jeff Trail]

Ruth,

As weird as it seems ;) another thing you need to check is in the electrical service ... do you have any protection from power surges as well as power dips?
I went ahead and spent a couple hundred bucks for one and not use one of those $30 power surge protectors.. this one actually boosts if it is low and kills the spikes... now I never noticed it but when you do get a surge or a cut it makes a "clicking" sound.. I bet I hear that thing pop on and off 20 or 30 times a day.. and more so if the weather is hot or cold and power consumption is up..(being in FL.)
When you get a surge through the system, not enough to do any damage but enough to "tweak" it a little.. I run Briots pattenless ( a couple of them) and I know for some odd reason once in awhile it used to cut a perfect circle.. of course when something expensive was in the unit since I did the power unit all my problems more or less disappeared...
If you know someone that is an electrician, that is a friend, they can run a voltage meter and check your circuits .. I think that might be a very good place to start from..
You'll probably find that we have a pretty wide selection of posters here and chances are someone else ran into the problems you are having..


Jeff "cut me..do I not bleed resin?" Trail

(OK so I changed to a more "classical" ending:D

[Jubilee]

Jeff really hit it on the head in regards to the need for CLEAN electricity.

My lab has gone through quite a few growing pains this past year. I really need to watch what I say to my superiors cause silly me at last review said "I want to strengthen my skills in equipment troubleshooting and repair", and what happens? I get placed in a store that couldn't keep all of the equipment running at the same time for more than a week.

In one year we replaced the servo board in our SGX twice, the theta gear 3x, the main board, the spindle motor, replaced the bruches twice before that, numerous sensors, and the like. In our professional edgers we had to replace the enclosure 2, the encoders at least 3x..and the list goes on. Very frustrating...very costly...

Our lab did have a problem with power surges alternating with brown outs. We DID have a surge protector on all of our equipment, but it wasn't enough. Oh yeah, they would go clickety click all the time, show that lovely yellow low power light, etc. Heck we even had to replace two of the units after a few surges.
I begged for my home office to do something. Even got my regional supervisor in on it after one surge FRIED my generator. IT took 3 months for them to fix it, and in the report back it even stated that the machine looked like it was subjected to multiple power spikes. I finally got them to do something after the outlet that powers my clean n coat caught fire. Threw sparks hot enough and far enough that the electricians were drawing straws to see who would come up short and have to work on it. Now the former lab manager said I should have let the place burned..but well that isn't the sorta thing you want on your associate file.

Interviewing for promotion
"So tell me Cassandra, tell me about a time you went the extra mile for the good of the region?"

"Well, I did let the lab burn down so that we could get all new wiring and equipment! The down time gave the associates a much needed break as they went to other stores who had real labs that stayed working. This in turn increased their morale, and when they rebuilt the lab it was actually to the specifications needed to work in today's lab so the new equipment could be properly taken care of!"....

So I took the evidence ( burnt up outlet, electricians notes and bill, all of our part invoices) and sent it to one of our VPs...

They finally got on the ball, put in a few extra dedicated lines hooked up a UPS system to our back panel. Have a surge protector slening up the power as it comes in the store, and still have received top of the line models for our equip as well. 3months and we haven't had to replace anything!!! Our equipment is running the best it ever has, and our productivity shows as well.

Cassandra

[Jeff Trail]

Cassandra,

You get it down and get a ton of the manuals and learn about more equipment and start doing consulting work like I do on the side..I get $45 an hour when I go into any lab or office (plus parts)...
If you seen some of the things I have you would "cringe", I have seen labs installed in retails and they did not check and breaker boxes, had NO protectors at ALL anywhere in the lab ..the excuse being "oh that $245 for the good one is to expensive"..but you are running a $45,000 generator unprotected? or a $30,000 patternless system? BUT $250 is to much? ..sheesh...
SGX are pretty easy to work on, wait till you start tinkering with LOH or the older Coburn generators like the 108's,108ct's or 2113's etc., etc. .. or God forbid some of the old counter balanced Inland cylinder machines..ARRRGGG ..you want to find you a few good suppliers and a couple of the better ones I found are Nestor systems and Prism Tool company..
I am still amazed by people who spend this large amount of money for labs or new automated equipment and than hedge at up dating the electrical systems ...
Welcome to the world of Corp. optics.. where common sense has no place :-)
If I hear any of these lines one more time I'm going postal:

1) I didn't know you had to do "maintenance"?
2) You have to "calibrate" a patternless edger?
3) You have to grease a cylinder machine?
4) You have to calibrate a cylinder machine?
5) There are "bearings" in a cylinder machine?

Jeff "To be or not to be cr39" Trail