Optician Guild/Union or what ever

[Boldt]

The biggest problem with the licenced/non-licenced/ABO/ABOA/ABOM/NCLE/NCLEA/CPO/CPOA/CPOT/COA/COT/COMT/CCOA/ROUB/CDOS....etc, is that there is often much overlap, and most of the time, the public doesn't know/understand/care about the differences in what exists already.

To many, a tech is a tech, and a frame stylist is a stylist. They are most interested if you can explain what they can get covered for their "free" VSP/EyeMed glasses, or manage to get them back to the doctor without having to do the dreaded "puffer" eye check, or dilate their eyes during the exam. The public's guess at required education seems dubious at best, and I would further venture a guess that were more people across the entire US were queried, the perception might be rather different. Who knows.

It strikes me that there are really only two types of people in the doctors office that the public generally understands: The doctors, and the 'everything else people'. There is a massive amount of education that would need to take place, at a truly astronomical cost I would expect, to even break the surface of public awareness - let alone attempt to change buying habits (less online in favor of better quality from B&M shops etc)

Could all this realistically be done with YouTube?

For YouTube? It'd be hard, there would have to be commercials that would grab the Viewers attention. A well done channel is a must. It can't be just a washed out background and someone sitting there on a chair in a lab coat. It's possible, hell with the help of Doctor's offices and even the big chains I'd say it can be done. From there TV spots to bring more to the channel, then legislation.
It's a rough outline for what needs to be done and the time line would be in the years.

[ziggy]

Are you talking about the basic ABO test? That has been dumbed down for the last 20 years just to keep a 55% pass rate? It would take a lot of spin to make that positive...

LMAO I am just now reading through this thread and was thinking the same thing! if the public realized that a a drunk monkey with a #2 pencil can pass the ABO then the profession would loose what little respect we still have with the public! Those of you who know me know that I have always believed in the educate then legislate route. But it has many many problems. If we as an Opticians collectively could agree on this it would still go nowhere! You would a a large group who is educated but that's it. There is a reason why we have not a a new "licensed" state since 1979. As opticians, our collective pockets are not deep enough to make any changes. I have been on the legislative end for the last few years and have been unable to make any changes due to the influence of the retail giants, Optom's and our fellow opticians who are afraid that if the "bar" is raised it will somehow harm them. I've been in this business over 25 years(not as long as some but longer than most) and nothing has really changed, and I'm going to step out on a limb here and say in the next 25 years there will be no (positive) changes. As to the person who started the thread, learn everything about your craft, take classes, get degree, and be the best Optician you know. If you want to be happy, leave the "advancing Opticianry" political Bull Sh!t to the people who have made a living talking about it.

[rbaker]

LMAO I am just now reading through this thread and was thinking the same thing! if the public realized that a a drunk monkey with a #2 pencil can pass the ABO then the profession would loose what little respect we still have with the public! Those of you who know me know that I have always believed in the educate then legislate route. But it has many many problems. If we as an Opticians collectively could agree on this it would still go nowhere! You would a a large group who is educated but that's it. There is a reason why we have not a a new "licensed" state since 1979. As opticians, our collective pockets are not deep enough to make any changes. I have been on the legislative end for the last few years and have been unable to make any changes due to the influence of the retail giants, Optom's and our fellow opticians who are afraid that if the "bar" is raised it will somehow harm them. I've been in this business over 25 years(not as long as some but longer than most) and nothing has really changed, and I'm going to step out on a limb here and say in the next 25 years there will be no (positive) changes. As to the person who started the thread, learn everything about your craft, take classes, get degree, and be the best Optician you know. If you want to be happy, leave the "advancing Opticianry" political Bull Sh!t to the people who have made a living talking about it.

Right on but I think an apology to drunken monkeys is in order.

[ziggy]

Right on but I think an apology to drunken monkeys is in order.

Your right Dick, I could not sleep a wink last night fearing that I most likely offended our inebriated simian brothers. For that remark and all the other ones I thought of saying but did not,,,,, I am truly sorry.

[tx11]

EXACTLY when did the NOCE take turn for the worst? WHAT YEAR(s) was the ABO "DUMBED DOWN"? The current exams are said to be "pshycometrically developed"...what does that mean? http://www.abo-ncle.org/ABO/Certific...icExamTestPage

[ziggy]

EXACTLY when did the NOCE take turn for the worst? WHAT YEAR(s) was the ABO "DUMBED DOWN"? The current exams are said to be "pshycometrically developed"...what does that mean? http://www.abo-ncle.org/ABO/Certific...icExamTestPage

"pshycometrically developed" is a termed that is used a lot when talking about test,,,, that being said i have no idea what it means!! LOL all I know is the the first time i took the ABO was in (i think) 91 and the test was nothing but Optics, the theory behind it and anatomy & physiology. These latest versions have (from what I'm told by folks taking the test) has very little math. I drilled formulas in to my apprentice head, even suggesting they sleep with Stoner's book, and was told by several people that it was a waste of time. There was very little A&P on the new test. I was told that there was a ton of questions about HIPPA and record retention. Of course I understand that there are several versions but these people took the test at diffrent times and locations. HIPPA is important, but I think that this is something that can be picked up in a CE course.
Also interesting how the ABO/NCLE no longer send out the individuals score or even the national average. its just pass or fail. As mentors, we use to be able to take the score and tell where the person was deficient and give them some additional instruction in that area. Now I sound like an old man, "back in my day"...

[Boldt]

If it's been dumbed down I'd hate to see years passed.
I had a manager talk me into taking it twice about a year after I started in a lab, and I failed. It was close both times (4 points and one point), but some of the questions are about lenses that are almost never used, and some very obscure things for some one who is new. Part of it goes back to education, something Georgia lacked and being able to wade through some misinformation. I've got the study guides now and this time I should be ready, but I cant say a test with a pass rate of under 60% from what I hear is easy.

[tx11]

"pshycometrically developed" is a termed that is used a lot when talking about test,,,, that being said i have no idea what it means!! LOL all I know is the the first time i took the ABO was in (i think) 91 and the test was nothing but Optics, the theory behind it and anatomy & physiology. These latest versions have (from what I'm told by folks taking the test) has very little math. I drilled formulas in to my apprentice head, even suggesting they sleep with Stoner's book, and was told by several people that it was a waste of time. There was very little A&P on the new test. I was told that there was a ton of questions about HIPPA and record retention. Of course I understand that there are several versions but these people took the test at diffrent times and locations. HIPPA is important, but I think that this is something that can be picked up in a CE course.
Also interesting how the ABO/NCLE no longer send out the individuals score or even the national average. its just pass or fail. As mentors, we use to be able to take the score and tell where the person was deficient and give them some additional instruction in that area. Now I sound like an old man, "back in my day"...

I passed in 1989 and I remember it being heavy in optics as well...I wonder when the test changed or began to change.

[wmcdonald]

It has been a slow, gradual decline since the early 1990s, according to many, including me. It changed in its complexity (although it was never real tough) with each "norming" (which means adjusting the passing scores based upon pass rates and other factors) it declined. In reality, every individual remembers the good old days when they took it....... it had to be tougher then! Truth is, if you had any level of training you should not have trouble with this thing then or now. We have folks like Boldt who are thrown to the wolves and try to pass it without any assistance, and it is allowed. No requirements to sit for this exam other than a check that clears and a pulse. I must admit I wonder about the pulse for those who cannot pass this with a little reading, though. To prove a point some years back, an individual did an experiment in which a new secretary at a national Opticianry organization was asked to read a study guide for a month. After that month was over, she took the NOCE and passed with, if memory serves, an 85. She did not even wear glasses! But she at least had a study guide! We are certainly not attracting the best and brightest, but those we do attract must have some systematic way of learning that is standard across the country somehow.

Psychometric evaluation is designed to assure tests are completely valid measured and as much bias as possible is eliminated. It is done for every kind of standardized assessment.

[ziggy]

and some very obscure things for some one who is new. .

There has been some talk about implementing a time in the field requirement before one could take the test. This would help with the obscure lens thing, but if you work in a retail type environment or for the average OD there will be a ton of stuff that you will never see.

[wmcdonald]

There was a 1-year requirement for many years. Not sure why that was eliminated? Could it be a revenue generator? Pass rates have declined since that happened. The board is going to put a year time requirement back in place very soon, I understand.

As to things you may never see.......the same is true in any field. But if you are going to use the title, you must go through the education and training required for the full depth and breadth of that field. ONLY in this crazy field do we break away from that. Keep in mind, we historically only did two things.......spectacles and contact lenses, and we separated those, largely because many could not pass the NCLE exam. We continually dumb ourselves down unfortunately.

[ziggy]

We continually dumb ourselves down unfortunately.

well said! if the ABO/NCLE would re-implement a time requirement and tact on the career progression program that would be a start toward standardizing education for opticians

[Diane]

I continually hear people say..."my company/boss/doctor won't pay for that book or this course in order for me to study." When we take charge of our own, we do better. Take responsibility for your own and you should do better. I am An apprentice trained optician, but things have changed dramatically in our industry. If we do not embrace education, we will continue to dumb down ourselves.

The test questions are geared toward an entry level person, with little or no training. That is part of the problem. Listen up to Warren folks, or we will not be around for the next generation.

Just my 2 cents.

Diane

[CCGREEN]

I continually hear people say..."my company/boss/doctor won't pay for that book or this course in order for me to study." When we take charge of our own, we do better. Take responsibility for your own and you should do better.

I second that big time. I cannot express how passionate I am about looking out and taking/charge of ones own life and destination. No one should want improvement of/for yourself more passionately then you.

[Boldt]

Agreed, part of the reason I'm going to start school for it.

[gmc]

I continually hear people say..."my company/boss/doctor won't pay for that book or this course in order for me to study." When we take charge of our own, we do better. Take responsibility for your own and you should do better. I am An apprentice trained optician, but things have changed dramatically in our industry. If we do not embrace education, we will continue to dumb down ourselves.

The test questions are geared toward an entry level person, with little or no training. That is part of the problem. Listen up to Warren folks, or we will not be around for the next generation.

Just my 2 cents.

Diane

I'm not even trained as an apprentice. Shortly after I entered the field in the late eighties I took and passed the ABO and NCLE exams. I passed both but it made me realize how little I knew, so I started devouring as much information as I could. I spent a small fortune on books and training. I became more knowledgeable than the average optician and ultimately completed the ABOM requirements in 1997.

When I decided to move to Florida in 1994, I was able to get my license by showing (with a nod to Dr. McDonald) a pulse, a cleared check, passage of the ABO and NCLE exams, and five years worth of pay stubs from Alabama.

You shouldn't be able to get your license to practice opticianry today the way I got mine years ago. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up my ability to make a living. Nor do I expect anyone else to. But if we don't institute meaningful educational standards for the future, opticianry will soon be unrecognizable or dead.

[optical24/7]

The best place to start instituting meaningful education standards would be in those states that already have licensure. Why haven't any of them started?

[m0002a]

But if we don't institute meaningful educational standards for the future, opticianry will soon be unrecognizable or dead.

A visit to most chain store opticals, or even some independents when the lead optician or owner is not around, would realize that it has already happened.

[tx11]

MAYBE there should be course work ( a basic ophthalmic optics work book) that HAS to be completed BEFORE one can sit for the exam will increase the pass rate and produce more optically minded dispensers.

[Uilleann]

MAYBE there should be course work ( a basic ophthalmic optics work book) that HAS to be completed BEFORE one can sit for the exam will increase the pass rate and produce more optically minded dispensers.

Perhaps. But just make certain the ABO has absolutely nothing to do with it. And further, has no financial interest in said publication either.

[leeopt]

Hey a union could probably help us out......like they did Detroit!

I needed a laugh.

[ziggy]

MAYBE there should be course work ( a basic ophthalmic optics work book) that HAS to be completed BEFORE one can sit for the exam will increase the pass rate and produce more optically minded dispensers.

perfect

[Hayde]

Interesting line of discourse, but I don't think we're looking at the green.

If we can agree licensure is a tough sell and will be lucky to hold its current boundries--forget advancing where it's not currently in place--then we have to accept 'legislation' isn't a successful strategy. Uncle Fester's post is still informative:

the OD's and independent chains who would weigh in as it's against their interests.

(emphasis mine)

It's not what we think of the issue that's pertinent. It's what doctors think--and a good portion of them think they're doing fine with green assistants who come cheaper than licensed (or equivelently trained) optitians. Plus the public at large has every right to be sceptical of the economic impact of licensure in any industry.

Uilleann is right...patients see 'doctors' and 'the rest of them.' The more we take a 'union' or authoritarian tone on this subject of professional education, the less we're accomplishing. What sort of science fiction event would have to happen for us to flaunt ourselves in the middle between doctors and their patients about "what they really need" without Optometry's blessing? Should we even want to?

Rather than continue to effectively persuade doctors their interests are aligned with corporate fast-food, we need to ask ourselves WHY optician certification (of whatever level) isn't more valuable to doctors? Why doesn't our expertise market THEM better? What would it take to make it so? If we really want the value of competent opticianry sold to patients, it has to be done Through the docs & AOA--not around them. Which means this subject has to be approached in such a way we're not suspected of 'unionizing' or whatever posturing that seems we want to drive up their cost of doing business.

We don't own the title 'optician'...no point pretending we do. Regardless of who you think should, it's Doctors that do. Any 'minimum curriculum bible' of 'opticians' needs to be sold to doctors--in economic terms. They're the only ones who can make it stick. When enough docs see it in the interests of their practices as well as the field of optometry, they'll put the semantic bar of "optician" high enough to distinguish us from McGlasses employees. If and when they decide to snap their fingers, I bet the ABO will jump wherever they're told.

[Uncle Fester]

Which means this subject has to be approached in such a way we're not suspected of 'unionizing' or whatever posturing that seems we want to drive up their cost of doing business...

We don't own the title 'optician'...no point pretending we do. Regardless of who you think should, it's Doctors that do. Any 'minimum curriculum bible' of 'opticians' needs to be sold to doctors--in economic terms. They're the only ones who can make it stick. When enough docs see it in the interests of their practices as well as the field of optometry, they'll put the semantic bar of "optician" high enough to distinguish us from McGlasses employees. If and when they decide to snap their fingers, I bet the ABO will jump wherever they're told.

I don't think the Doc's hold the key.

Again I'm not clear as to why it's a bad thing to unionize and drive up the cost of chains doing business. So quarterly profits drop less that .5% of multi-million dollar corporations who could care less about the well being of their employees.

That's a bad thing for the single mom trying to make a career with her high school diploma by having a much stronger voice advocating for a living wage predicated on getting more education and not what ever add on's she can up-sell to boost the commission?

I'm advocating for the McGlasses employees who are the future and have very little voice to change the situation. Many of whom cannot contribute to this thread for fear of being found out by their employer and fired. A situation now where they can be given a "supervisor" title and then be forced to work OT with no compensation. Yes-They can quit-- I get that!!! But why not promote an option that would help the little guy and begin to create national standards- all be it to a small but growing segment of opticianry.

Now if your disagreement stems from a belief that all unions are always corrupt then you should say so and let the discussion continue with those who disagree.

[rbaker]

MAYBE there should be course work ( a basic ophthalmic optics work book) that HAS to be completed BEFORE one can sit for the exam will increase the pass rate and produce more optically minded dispensers.

This is a logical solution which is why it will never be implemented.