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Thread: Brand Progressives versus house brands

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Brand Progressives versus house brands

    I am currently wearing what I Thought was the best progressive, the Zeiss Individual 2.It is very good for dist but not for near or int, My prev, with same Rx wasToledo Opticals Visionary Max , based on IOT and Younger design. Does Anyone else have experience between the expensive brands versus the house brands?

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    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    The Zeiss Individual II is a good lens but maybe not for you. That's ok. We are talking about different corridor designs and price point has nothing to do with it. The Seiko Surmount is less expensive than the Zeiss Individual but it has a wider intermediate and reading area and you can specify near PD. The Shamir Intouch is great too- less expensive as well but again it's a different application. It all depends on your Rx and how you use your eyes.

    There is no such thing as "Good, Better, Best".
    "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; only enlightened activity." -Shunryu Suzuki

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    On a personal level I can't say much, I've tried a few types, but as I only "Need" a .5 bump they all are about the same.
    Now what I can say is that the house brands from the lab that I use perform as good as any named lenses I dispense. I've given thought to only using the house ones and selling them at the price for what they do and not how much they are.
    I'm not sure how open your labs are, but ask your rep about the design and see what they say. For example the ones I use are based off of Seiko and a "Very High End European Brand" that I would guess to be Rodenstock (sp?) or Zeise.
    Last edited by Boldt; 09-08-2014 at 04:43 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Good, Better, Best? Why not "Pocket Change", "Debit Card", and "Sell The Kids"?

    We need to stop depending on marketing disguised as education and start learning to research for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    Good, Better, Best? Why not "Pocket Change", "Debit Card", and "Sell The Kids"?

    We need to stop depending on marketing disguised as education and start learning to research for ourselves.
    Best idea! It always amazes me when I talk to someone who has done this for 15+ years and they cant tell you anything more than what's on the "literature" Doctors I can understand, I don't like it but I get it. For opticians there is no reason why we should not know more about lenses. I was taught, by a rep no less, to look at what the lens does and how. To look at the over all design (hard vs soft vs hybrid) and go from there. I see to many people who just shrug and say it has name x it's good. Now not saying I know a ton about lenses, I still feel like I'm a kid in the shallow end with water wings, but I do take the time to learn and see what separates lens A from B.
    Ok lol The rant is over. :^)

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    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    We need to stop depending on marketing disguised as education and start learning to research for ourselves.
    You are so right it's not even funny. Its hard to find an Optician or even a rep that isn't a marketing zombie. I've gone to a few CE dinners and it's always the same spiel over and over again. "Digitalized! Optomized! Accesorized! BLAH BLAH BLAH! Last time I stood up and asked a question (a Unity dinner) I was told it was "a good question" and given a Starbucks gift card instead of an explanation.
    "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; only enlightened activity." -Shunryu Suzuki

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    Good, Better, Best? Why not "Pocket Change", "Debit Card", and "Sell The Kids"?

    We need to stop depending on marketing disguised as education and start learning to research for ourselves.
    There used to be a clothing store their slogan was "An educated consumer, is our best customer..." What kind of stuff would you all like to get education on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperoptic View Post
    There used to be a clothing store their slogan was "An educated consumer, is our best customer..." What kind of stuff would you all like to get education on?
    Choosing progressive Corridor lengths in Lenses (When, Why, How does it help) that I can explain to the staff in an easy to understand way, as well as a more in depth way of covering it for those that want to know more (me)

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    Short corridor benefits
    1.Good choice for small fashion frames with small B measurment.
    2.Shorter and fast to get to the reading area.
    3.Fast adaptation for ex-bifocal users
    Cons.
    1.very little intermediate,bad for patients who work a lot on the intermediate.
    2.Unwanted astigmatism is closer,as the vertical corridor shortens ,it also shortens horizontally.

    Long corridor benefits
    1.Larger intermediate area (than shorter corridors)
    2.Unwanted astigmatism is farther away ,as the vertical corridor gets longer,it also widens horizontally.
    3.Works well with larger frames.
    Cons.
    1.Not good for small frames with a short B measurment.
    2.Not good for ex-Bifocal users .
    3.Takes a little longer to reach the reading area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    Choosing progressive Corridor lengths in Lenses (When, Why, How does it help) that I can explain to the staff in an easy to understand way, as well as a more in depth way of covering it for those that want to know more (me)
    Corridor length selection is really based on a few things, first is the frame chosen, and second is previous lens selection. If a patient is used to a short corridor PAL, and you put them into a PAL with a drastically longer corridor, typically they will reject the new lens because the reading is not where they expect it to be.

    We need to understand PAL choice comes down to compramise, if we want a smaller B, then we compromise on corridor length, and we know from Minkwitz that we in turn make the corridor narrower. The proportional relationship between the corridor length and width are fixed for all lens designs and designers, we are all stuck by the same rules. So a lens with a 10mm corridor will have a narrower corridor then a design with a 16mm Corridor.

    When I am choosing a corridor length choosing the longest corridor I can without making the patient retrain drastically.

    This way the patient is getting the widest vision possible in all gaze directions, while not having a huge learning curve to get used to a new pair of specs.

    Thats the abridged version PM me and I can call you if you want a longer discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperoptic View Post
    We need to understand PAL choice comes down to compramise, if we want a smaller B, then we compromise on corridor length, and we know from Minkwitz that we in turn make the corridor narrower. The proportional relationship between the corridor length and width are fixed for all lens designs and designers, we are all stuck by the same rules. So a lens with a 10mm corridor will have a narrower corridor then a design with a 16mm Corridor.
    In the same design yes, but some lenses will offer a vastly different shape and design from one another, for example the Plus and Barrell shapes even in a short corridor with a high add will have a wider intermediate width than a T shape in a long corridor and low add.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter ak47's Avatar
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    @sharpstick, can you please list all the barrell and Plus shaped designs you know?
    I know most are T-shaped, and I know Surmount is barrell and most patients love it, but it would be great to have more information.
    Thanks!

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    Barrell: Surmount, and Surmount WS
    Plus: Definity, iD & iD Lifestyle

    IIRC

    cs

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    I can't take it anymore! Barrel

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    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty View Post
    I can't take it anymore! Barrel


    I feel the same way when people debate the merits of selling "Channel" frames.
    "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; only enlightened activity." -Shunryu Suzuki

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    OptiBoard Apprentice INDIE DesEYEnS's Avatar
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    It's our job to educate ourselves, by seeking out the type of companies that love to educate and actually care what is best for patient and the overall performance of the lenses. Being well informed and being able to educate the patient on what to expect is most important.
    As professional's, it's our job to know what's best and also have the ability to troubleshoot problems in a way that keeps patients happy and satisfied because they trust us and we know our stuff.

    The era of only trusting branded label is coming to an end, for a myriad of reasons.

    What works best for your patients while improving the ability to stay competitive? = Private Label.

    Private label delivers this and offers the ability to differentiate ourselves in the marketplace. My viewpoint is, the ECP's that are being sold on branding not the patient, unless you're talking to an interested engineer who loves to pick your brain, the average patient is coming to us to solve vision problems and could care less about the brand of lenses (but more about the brand of the FRAMEs), they want performance- this leaves the door of opportunity wide open because the ECP's ultimately have the power to decide for them! The real impact is the care they receive and vision quality and of course we can't forget about cost.
    Last edited by INDIE DesEYEnS; 09-16-2014 at 11:28 AM.

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    Sphinxsmith nailed it... but I am terrible speller as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphinxsmith View Post
    Barrell: Surmount, and Surmount WS
    Plus: Definity, iD & iD Lifestyle

    IIRC

    cs

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    Quote Originally Posted by INDIE DesEYEnS View Post
    It's our job to educate ourselves, by seeking out the type of companies that love to educate and actually care what is best for patient and the overall performance of the lenses. Being well informed and being able to educate the patient on what to expect is most important.
    As professional's, it's our job to know what's best and also have the ability to troubleshoot problems in a way that keeps patients happy and satisfied because they trust us and we know our stuff.

    The era of only trusting branded label is coming to an end, for a myriad of reasons.

    What works best for your patients while improving the ability to stay competitive? = Private Label.

    Private label delivers this and offers the ability to differentiate ourselves in the marketplace. My viewpoint is, the ECP's that are being sold on branding not the patient, unless you're talking to an interested engineer who loves to pick your brain, the average patient is coming to us to solve vision problems and could care less about the brand of lenses (but more about the brand of the FRAMEs), they want performance- this leaves the door of opportunity wide open because the ECP's ultimately have the power to decide for them! The real impact is the care they receive and vision quality and of course we can't forget about cost.
    +1

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