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Thread: Patients asking for PD's to order online...what do you do?

  1. #1
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    Patients asking for PD's to order online...what do you do?

    Curious as to what you do when people ask for their PD measurements to order online.

    In Massachusetts if the optician gives out a PD they are responsible for it.

    Example:
    A Patient walks in and I measure the PD and write down the correct PD of 62.0, then that person goes home and types in 26.0 and places the order. When the glasses show up and they put them on and fall down the stairs, or drive into a tree because of the prism, my license is in jeopardy.

    I do all I can to deter them from buying online, but it doesn't always happen. The doctor I work with doesn't take a PD at anytime, so I can't say "The doctor will include it on your RX"

    We have been toying with idea of making up a form that says:

    "Your PD is:________. Bring this form back and receive $50 of your next purchase of eye wear."

    Then charging $50 for the measurement.

    Any feedback???

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder opty4062's Avatar
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    If someone enters their pd or rx wrong on a website you are no more responsible than if you sold them a car and they put water in the gas tank. We currently give out PDs for patients at no charge if we have it already on file. If not, we have a nominal fee and a form for them to sign that states we will measure their PD and also check the rx and fit when they order glasses elsewhere. It helps to get the patient in a conversation about why these things are so important. At the same time we charge for the service we offer and, bottom line, help the patient get what they want, even if it's an $8 online pair.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by opty4062 View Post
    If someone enters their pd or rx wrong on a website you are no more responsible than if you sold them a car and they put water in the gas tank. We currently give out PDs for patients at no charge if we have it already on file. If not, we have a nominal fee and a form for them to sign that states we will measure their PD and also check the rx and fit when they order glasses elsewhere. It helps to get the patient in a conversation about why these things are so important. At the same time we charge for the service we offer and, bottom line, help the patient get what they want, even if it's an $8 online pair.
    Massachusetts Board of Opticianry doesn't agree with that statement. Odds of it happening are slim to none, but if my license is taken away then so is my income.

  4. #4
    OptiBoard Professional nicksims's Avatar
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    Astrotrain, welcome to a hot topic. If via phone, and we've taken a PD for patient and made glasses that the patient has worn, then we will give it to them without a charge, but only after a conversation re: the pitfalls of online ordering. While it is not part of their medical record (we have MD's and OD's here as well as a separate optical entity), it is not required to be given, but as it is a part of their purchase, we do give it to them but only after lengthy explanations as to how and why it is measured, issues with frame, what if a pupil height is needed as well, and more.

    If they have not had glasses made by us, there is no PD on record. So we offer to have them come in if not already here, we charge a fee ($29), explain as written above, offer to examine what was made, offer adjustment services as their glasses probably won't fit, and if they buy from certain online companies, well, they'll just suck (although stated more politely to the patient.) We offer this as a service and have it all written out for them. When explained fully like this, we usually end up opening a good rapport with the patient, they learn more, and often just come to us for their glasses. Or they order online, regret it, didn't spend too much, come back to us and we may credit the original $29 towards a purchase with us. So much depends on rx strength, type, cyl, etc...

  5. #5
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    one of the best things for the PX to do is buy a pair online, They probably won't be happy with them and will always come back to you for glasses. cheep materials, poor quality, no service and hassles to return. They will be back. The ones that don't comeback would be the ones that are lost to the box retailers. That's my advise.

    Also if you make up a form that gives the PD,s and such but make look scientific, official, professional, and impressive looking, a level above the online store. That way the PX has card with the binocular distant PD, a near PD, monocular, and anything else that might be needed for ordering glasses (little overkill). That way when they go to order glasses and are only being asked for a monocular PD, it will create an illusion that maybe their not getting all their not pay for and make us look more on point and online look less reliable.

    Food for thought here http://www.aoa.org/documents/public/...ses_Online.pdf most of this we already know but its interesting to see actual numbers.

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    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opty4062 View Post
    If someone enters their pd or rx wrong on a website you are no more responsible than if you sold them a car and they put water in the gas tank. .
    This statement is correct. Astro, I suggest you contact your Board for clarification. You are not responsible for mistakes made by client or mistakes made by another supplier, as long as the info you provided was correct. A good idea would be to use carbonless copy paper ( or copy the filled out form you gave them) so you can retain an exact copy of what you gave them.

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Master OptiBoarder opty4062's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrotrain View Post
    Massachusetts Board of Opticianry doesn't agree with that statement. Odds of it happening are slim to none, but if my license is taken away then so is my income.
    If this were to be the actual case which I highly doubt, you should just NEVER release the PD then, or...move. :)

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    I've heard of people charging for the PD - maybe $50 or so - and also offering 'free adjustments' with the frames they subsequently buy online. That way they can get them back into the office after they get the glasses online and they're not happy with them. Since they're invariably going to be upset that you "won't give them" the PD, this at least keeps a dialogue open with them, and they don't go somewhere else next time.
    FEA Industries
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    I always tell them that the person who is making their glasses is responsible for taking that measurement.

  11. #11
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^ haha perfect!

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    OptiWizard
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    They could also type in their prescription wrong, why would you be responsible for only the PD being typed right?

    Harry.
    Last edited by harry888; 07-25-2014 at 08:33 PM.

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    Doh! braheem24's Avatar
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    Give them the refracted PD, all other PDs are personalized based on lens type.

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    In the UK, the PD is a measurement taken during the dispensing of spectacles. It is therefore not a measurement I would be giving out, nor charging for.

    If the online sector is happy to dispense, then they should be responsible for the measuring up too - even if that means having an online tutorial to take your own PD (which is simple enough). If I was buying a pair of shoes online, I wouldn't expect the website to tell me to go get my shoe size measured in a B&M shoe shop. Why should it apply to spectacles?

    I am also interested in how the most popular online supplier of spectacles in the UK is happy to use 63 as an average. Going back to shoes again - if we were all sold the avarage shoe size, imagine how terrible the fit would be for some!

    </rant>

    PS. I'm not sure how much of what I've written I believe, but never mind.

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    Blue Jumper This whole issue is much more than just supply a PD ................................

    Today when anybody can do a web search on any subject within minutes, even while waiting for a bus, and can find out what an eyeglass frame and lenses are worth at their source, is it not time for a highly trained optician to charge a fair price for the product he /her sells, plus a service charge that is equivalent to his knowledge and experience.

    Good Opticians will always be needed, even if the public buys glasses directly from a lab which is owned by Essilor or Mr Firmoo (who started in the clothing business), because those companies have no hands on service at all, and can be located thousands of miles away.

    In other professions people have learned years ago when home depot started to become popular that any plumbing part could be had for a fraction of the cost it used to be earlier.
    How many of you can recall a plumbers invoice which states today $ 2.80 for a seal and 2.5 hours of labour at $ 85.00 for the service, and a total invoice for $ 215.30. Some of them will even charge to come to the house.

    All of us go to Home Depot and their equivalent competitors without even thinking that they actually had killed the independent local hard ware stores some years ago before there was an internet with instant public communications possibility.

    Does opticianry want to go the way of the local hard ware stores did some years ago ? They might just visibly just do that, because the public is told on a daily basis they could purchase the same thing at much lower prices and in better lead times..

    Last February I had to replace the heat pump in my office in Florida which is attached to the outside of my house. The local Home Depot did not have any in stock, so I contacted Amazon.com who did, and for an extra $ 29.00 it could be delivered next day. Ordered at 3pm and delivered by UPS at 11.00 am at the door. The box weighed 110 pounds. The price paid for the total was roughly a bit over 50% of what I paid 7 years earlier for the old machine at the Home Depot.

    This whole issue is much more than just supply a PD or not it is an issue that could be the funeral home for the optical retail as we have known it for many years.

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    It can be a bleak outlook - but as you have said, there will always be space in the market for 'good' Opticians - some people just like going to a 'proper' shop.

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    I suppose if giving out PDs means it is "game-over" for b/m opticals, then so be it. No sense in fighting that battle, as people will get their pds one way or the other.

    I don't think it is that simple though, and people still need professional advice, service and most still prefer to try on frames before purchasing. The free home try on with all of the back and forth shipping charges incurred by the webtailers is a choke hold on profits. Just look at what happened to Amazon's stock yesterday. Shipping charges will kill profits, and in the case of online eyewear - where it is GUARANTEED that the first delivery of sample frames will be returned - the charges must be insane.
    The only companies GUARANTEED to profit from online eyewear are GOOGLE and FEDEX.
    You, the intelligent optical retailer, still have time to adapt to the new landscape, to adjust your offers and marketing messages, to grow and thrive.
    Standing still, doing nothing but conjure ways to NOT give out PDs is not a good use of your time.

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    Wow, its good to see Mrs. Regan again. We charge 25$ and put them through the vizio office with a complete explanation of what the Mono, binocular, near pd, distance, and general information about all of the other measurments that vizio office spits out. If they want to order glasses online Caveat Emptor!

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    why not just give the PD?

  20. #20
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Why draw the line at the p.d.?

    Why not let them look through your inventory, maybe with you explaining what looks good on them? You could write down the frame number that they like.

    And while you're at it, why not sit down with them at their website of choice and browse frames with them, telling them what you think would look good on them?

    Why not enter their parameters in for them, so they don't make a mistake entering them themselves?

    Why not help them select the best lens type for their needs, too?

    Why not give them a free verification when the glasses arrive?

    Why not give them a free initial adjustment?

    Why not give them a free trouble-shoot if something goes wrong?

    I don't see what the big fuss about all this is. Just give the customer what they want. Don't be rude or anything. Give your services away. Otherwise, you could lose them as your customer!
    Last edited by drk; 07-26-2014 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
    why not just give the PD?
    Your kidding, right?? As soon as you give the PD to the person they will get their crappy internet glasses, and then guess who their coming to see when they can't see through them. YOU!! You have been the only living person they have interacted with, so in their mind it will be your fault.

  22. #22
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optimensch View Post
    I suppose if giving out PDs means it is "game-over" for b/m opticals, then so be it. No sense in fighting that battle, as people will get their pds one way or the other.

    I don't think it is that simple though, and people still need professional advice, service and most still prefer to try on frames before purchasing. The free home try on with all of the back and forth shipping charges incurred by the webtailers is a choke hold on profits. Just look at what happened to Amazon's stock yesterday. Shipping charges will kill profits, and in the case of online eyewear - where it is GUARANTEED that the first delivery of sample frames will be returned - the charges must be insane.
    The only companies GUARANTEED to profit from online eyewear are GOOGLE and FEDEX.
    You, the intelligent optical retailer, still have time to adapt to the new landscape, to adjust your offers and marketing messages, to grow and thrive.
    Standing still, doing nothing but conjure ways to NOT give out PDs is not a good use of your time.
    Mensch, you know I respect your opinion. However, it's pretty simple to not give away your services. Just say "sorry, it's against our policy". There are 50 ways to say no. Fifty ways to refuse to give out a p.d. or whatever.

    (Where's that old post?)

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LensGrinder76 View Post
    Your kidding, right?? As soon as you give the PD to the person they will get their crappy internet glasses, and then guess who their coming to see when they can't see through them. YOU!! You have been the only living person they have interacted with, so in their mind it will be your fault.
    It's only your fault if you can't fix the problem, and explain how the problem can be fixed.

    if it's a restyle, help them make a decision from your stock.
    if it's a measurement change, explain how you can do it ten times better and faster.

    The percentage of people who need glasses that purchase from B&M opticals or private practice offices is normally quite high. In comparison to say online, costco, walmart, etc...

    stop worrying about losing patients to online.

    the internet has existed for over 20 years, internet shopping has been around for over 10.
    yet people still shop at B&M locations. Not because of price, but because of service.

    focus on capturing the ones that are willing to pay for awesome service.
    Let the others go. It's not worth the fight.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LensGrinder76 View Post
    Your kidding, right?? As soon as you give the PD to the person they will get their crappy internet glasses, and then guess who their coming to see when they can't see through them. YOU!! You have been the only living person they have interacted with, so in their mind it will be your fault.
    This subject was discussed thoroughly in another thread several months ago.

    Two things can happen:

    • If you get their PD business, and you are really the only live optician they have interacted with, if they have problems with their online products, or decide for some other reason to see a live optician, you are much more likely to be the one chosen in the future. Just getting them in the store to do the PD, and to be able to discuss the complexities and benefits of a proper fitting, lens selection, etc, may actually deter them from the online purchase in the first place.
    • If you tell them no, it is unlikely you will ever see them again.


    Taking a PD measurement is not rocket science. Just searching the web, there are instructions available for patients to take their own measurements (or have a friend do it). It may not be perfect, but neither are all opticians perfect, and it will probably be close enough most people. There are iPhone apps that will automatically calculate it, as well as other web apps from online retailers that will do it. They work by uploading a photograph of the patient with a know object in the picture for scale (such as a credit card, which are of uniform size). Many of these apps are not much different than apps provided by lens manufacturers such as Hoya that run on an iPad to take all the measurements (PD, panto, etc) for their ID MyStyle lenses.

    My opinion is that you should charge a reasonable fee for the service ($20-$25). I would probably charge $19.95.
    Last edited by m0002a; 07-27-2014 at 02:24 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LensGrinder76 View Post
    and then guess who their coming to see when they can't see through them. YOU!!
    They are gonna buy their crappy glasses anyway.

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