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Thread: Non branded free form pal you like

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Non branded free form pal you like

    And what branded pal you would compare it to.

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    Acuity by PFO Global although the company appears to be going through changes....
    Last edited by David_Garza; 07-29-2014 at 03:55 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Thanks for you response David. So, does everyone else ONLY dispense BRANDED PAL's? If so ....Why. Are they that much better? I was hoping to find some suggestions for great proven free form Pals that do not have branding costs added to the wholesale price.

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    You should know what you are getting with Generic lenses before you order. The first thing missing is product testing. The big manufacturers all go through product trials before releasing a lens design. High myopes, check. High Adds, check. High cyls, check. They always adjust their parameters in response. The second thing you don't get is adaptive designs. Most premium lenses are adaptive, its inherent in any lens that as the add power increases so does the "potential distortion", a premium lens will be far more adaptive which usually means that it balances or controls that extra distortion is specific ways (Some lenses get harder, some decrease the reading, some decrease the distance). With many generic lenses the consequences are unpredictable in higher adds. The third thing you miss is more advanced or complex math. Many generics use static "point files" (machine instruction set is a better term), one I know only offers 900 files. You really need around 12K files for freeform to make any sense, but better still is MIS constructed individually based on many parameters, where the surface is truly calculated at least in part with a computer, not just picking a close MIS. You will see this most on Cylinder correction. I have only seen a couple generic lenses that offered individualized calculations.

    Do generic lenses have a place? Yes. Are they equal to premium lenses? not usually. I think I have tried generic lenses for 13 different manufacturers around the world and found a few good, a few terrible ones, but most are just OK.

    When cost is factor fit a generic FF over a standard grinder, sure. But if its your go-to strategy you risk losing a referral.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Thanks Sharptick777. Very interesting....So are most of the "house brand" free forms of independent labs untested on pts? Do I understand you correctly that most non branded free forms are STILL better than standard grinder?

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    I did the Pepsi challenge to try mine out. Same Patient same frame (different colors), one was a Big 3 Premium PAL (non FF) the other was the other FF Pal. Pt had a fairly strong Myopic RX with some cyl. After a month called pt and she could not tell any difference in the brands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Garza View Post
    I did the Pepsi challenge to try mine out. Same Patient same frame (different colors), one was a Big 3 Premium PAL (non FF) the other was the other FF Pal. Pt had a fairly strong Myopic RX with some cyl. After a month called pt and she could not tell any difference in the brands.
    What exactly were the Big 3 lens brands and models you compared?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    Thanks Sharptick777. Very interesting....So are most of the "house brand" free forms of independent labs untested on pts? Do I understand you correctly that most non branded free forms are STILL better than standard grinder?
    I believe IOT will do product testing, but you have to pay extra for it. Who has done that... no one is saying.

    I strongly favor a backside add, so although you don't get all the compensations you do get lower unwanted cyl and prism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David_Garza View Post
    I did the Pepsi challenge to try mine out. Same Patient same frame (different colors), one was a Big 3 Premium PAL (non FF) the other was the other FF Pal. Pt had a fairly strong Myopic RX with some cyl. After a month called pt and she could not tell any difference in the brands.
    Many of the supposed FF lenses on the market, are not true backside FF. As well, some people are Omni-opes, or near their ideal base curve/power combo in their traditional lenses. To really do the test well you need an RX that falls between the manufacturers base curve charts, for example, they are right on the cusp of 5 base (using Vogels rule) but the manufacture makes lenses only in a 4 or 6 base. Some lens manufactures use odd number bases so you have to know the lens you are using. If a patient sits in middle of their ideal base curve they are not going to notice the advantages of FF as much.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Thanks again David and Sharpstick. Have there been any NON Branded FF PALs compared to Branded FF PALs ..that you know of?

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    We have found different results on the branded labs we have compared the non branded lenses to (Used two majors in the last 3 years).Interesting to see how others get on.

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    As far as IOT designs, all of the designs are put through wearer trials, there is no extra charge to our customers for this, as it is part of the development process. The truth is that all modern designers are maximizing efficiency and most of them are doing a comparable job. IOT gives you, the most state of the art technology (www.camberlens.com),the ECP to offer an exclusive product that in our case also gives you added advantages of great materials to help explain how the lenses work (www.digitalray-path.com) to the patient, the flexibility to decenter the design and use any material (meaning backorder issues and cut out problems are drastically reduced) and VSP approvals.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Please explain how IOT works. Are they a wholesale lab?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    Please explain how IOT works. Are they a wholesale lab?

    IOT provides the design to the Independent laboratories. Different labs offer different products based on what demographic they focus on. Some are the same some are different. On the board you can find IOT users like Laramy K, FEA, and Icare industries. There may be others also, but there are several providers of these designs in the US. Check out the websites above for more information

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Thanks. What branded FREEFORM PALS can one compare these IOT FREEFORM PALs to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    Thanks. What branded FREEFORM PALS can one compare these IOT FREEFORM PALs to?
    The best person to ask for that information is your chosen independent laboratory who produces IOT designs. We have many designs and it wouldnt make sense to list everything out here on a public forum. PM me and Ill gladly talk in more detail privately.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Thanks hyperoptic, I will. Right now I was just hoping to get feedback from optiboarders who use NON BRANDED FREEFORM PALs instead of Branded ones

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    I get plenty of great feedback about the IOT designs. To give you an idea, we do about 1700 jobs per day, and freeform is about half of the PALs that we run. I think of non-branded vs branded, the IOT is about 80% of the free-form we run.

    I'd recommend getting a few samples of each made - the lens you use now, and a few of the IOT designs. That way you can try for yourself and see what you like. Even if you think the IOT is the same as the lens you have now, I can guarantee that you'll like the cost of the IOT lens better.
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    Then this is a recent change. When I spoke to IOT before Younger's purchase they wanted me to pay extra for wearer trials. Thanks for the update.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyperoptic View Post
    As far as IOT designs, all of the designs are put through wearer trials, there is no extra charge to our customers for this, as it is part of the development process. The truth is that all modern designers are maximizing efficiency and most of them are doing a comparable job. IOT gives you, the most state of the art technology (www.camberlens.com),the ECP to offer an exclusive product that in our case also gives you added advantages of great materials to help explain how the lenses work (www.digitalray-path.com) to the patient, the flexibility to decenter the design and use any material (meaning backorder issues and cut out problems are drastically reduced) and VSP approvals.

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    OptiBoardaholic other_bill_fea's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what IOT offers, but I know we (as a lab, unrelated to IOT) are more than happy to offer people pairs to try out. It's the easiest way to see what you want, and really the only way to see for yourself.

    I usually like to fit whoever is in charge of the purchasing, or some staff members that have tried different PALs. That way it's easier to get an opinion, as opposed to putting them on a patient or someone that hasn't tried other PALs.
    FEA Industries
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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    Thanks. What branded FREEFORM PALS can one compare these IOT FREEFORM PALs to?
    I can compare GT2 3D and Individual to Toledo Optical's Visionary Max (IOT and Younger design) . I much prefer the short corridor for computer and near of the Visionary Max or the GT2 3D. I see no difference between the 2 but both are better than the longer corridor of the Individual. Visionary Focus I didn't like.

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    I spent some time with IOT at Vision Expo. Their current technology is top of the line, and they are continually adding features once available only in branded lenses. Before Younger bought them they offered no product testing (unless you paid for it). I look forward to trying more of their lenses out very soon. The combination of patient trials and advance design features impressed me! Great job IOT and Younger.

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    OptiBoard Professional Lee H's Avatar
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    As a rep for a wholesale lab, I can tell you the results from the IOT designs have been terrific. I have had PAL wearers take the Pepsi challenge and they have chosen the IOT design over the branded product in almost every case. I also have taken the Pepsi challenge as I have many different PALS and even bought 6 identical frames and put 6 different PAL designs and I can tell you, I love my IOT's. I also love the material availability.

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    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee H View Post
    As a rep for a wholesale lab, I can tell you the results from the IOT designs have been terrific. I have had PAL wearers take the Pepsi challenge and they have chosen the IOT design over the branded product in almost every case. I also have taken the Pepsi challenge as I have many different PALS and even bought 6 identical frames and put 6 different PAL designs and I can tell you, I love my IOT's. I also love the material availability.

    Is this the Freefocus Lee?
    "Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; only enlightened activity." -Shunryu Suzuki

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee H View Post
    As a rep for a wholesale lab, I can tell you the results from the IOT designs have been terrific. I have had PAL wearers take the Pepsi challenge and they have chosen the IOT design over the branded product in almost every case. I also have taken the Pepsi challenge as I have many different PALS and even bought 6 identical frames and put 6 different PAL designs and I can tell you, I love my IOT's. I also love the material availability.
    I concur. Several accounts have taken the same challenge and switched with great success.

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