Question regarding online sales

[Safari]

I apologize if this has already been addressed. I have tried to research the forum for answer but I haven't found a thread that could really answer my question. I am wondering how online eyewear companies are able to sell prescription eyewear to states that require dispensing by a registered (NH) or a licensed (MA) optician? The reason I ask is because you can't buy ammunition online in MA, as soon as you put the MA zip code in it will decline your order (because of the gun laws in MA) but you are able to buy ammunition online in NH with a NH zip code because the laws are more lenient . I know these are different products, however, it's the only example I can use to explain what I'm asking. I mean prescription eyewear is just that a prescription and some states are more strict than others with who is able to dispense. Thank you in advance :-)

[erichwmack]

Good question, I await the answer to that as well...

[m0002a]

The laws about purchasing goods online in another state are a bit complicated. Generally speaking online sales are exempt from state sales tax if the online company does not have any store, office, warehouse, or "affiliate" presence in the state where the customer resides. The US Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that a state cannot force a retailer to collect sales tax unless the online retailer has a physical presence in that state (where the goods are shipped to). So in a similar way, maybe the online retailer may be exempt from optical dispensing licensing laws of the state where the customer resides, so long as the online optical is licensed in the state where the online store physically resides. Keep in mind that this is just a theory I am putting forward for a possible explanation, and I have no specific legal knowledge about this situation.

[coupe]

Are there actually some licenced states that allow licensed optictian/optometrist to sell Rx eyeglasses online.

[m0002a]

Are there actually some licenced states that allow licensed optictian/optometrist to sell Rx eyeglasses online.

This site operates out of Texas: http://www.eyeglasslensdirect.com/ and I suspect there are others.

I have no idea if they are breaking any laws or regulations for the state of Texas or whether it is permitted.

[Chris Ryser]

Optical onliners operate the sdame way as any other optical wholesale lab.

A customer orders, gives the Rx on the phone and it is made, shipped and paid. The only way to get controls would be to licence the optical labs...........................and that will never happen.

[m0002a]

Optical onliners operate the sdame way as any other optical wholesale lab.

A customer orders, gives the Rx on the phone and it is made, shipped and paid. The only way to get controls would be to licence the optical labs...........................and that will never happen.

I believe that the site in Texas (link provided in my post above) is operated by an OD, not a lab.

[drk]

Optical onliners operate the sdame way as any other optical wholesale lab.

A customer orders, gives the Rx on the phone and it is made, shipped and paid. The only way to get controls would be to licence the optical labs...........................and that will never happen.

Inaccurate. Wholesale labs don't go direct to patient.

Onliners deliberately flout existing state dispensing laws and nobody cares enough to enforce it. It's just not there, yet.

[Safari]

Oh ok, drk, I see. That makes sense. I just couldn't understand how they were getting around that. Maybe one day it will get there. Thanks.

[m0002a]

Onliners deliberately flout existing state dispensing laws and nobody cares enough to enforce it. It's just not there, yet.

I am not an expert in this area, but I googled and found this information about the state of New York that "suggests" that it is legal (just ill-advised).

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/od/odbroch.htm

Can I buy my prescription eyeglasses online?
New York State law requires prescription eyewear to be fitted and dispensed in person by a licensed practitioner (ophthalmic dispenser/optician, optometrist, ophthalmologist). Although any number of websites offer the sale of eyewear, the consumer must be aware of a number of things. Prescription eyeglasses are highly customized. There are numerous measurements that go into the fitting and fabrication that cannot be conveyed over the phone or internet. These include, but are not limited to: the shape of your nose and ears, the width of your face and the overall size of your head. Measurements such as these, and bifocal or multifocal height, can only be measured when you are face to face with a dispenser wearing the eyeglass frames you are planning to purchase.

In addition, the form, thickness, and material that your prescription lenses are made of should be discussed with your eyecare professional. A bargain that may be advertised online may result in a pair of glasses being heavier than necessary, or cause eye fatigue or headache. New Yorkers are advised to be wise consumers and consult their eyecare professional.

I could not find any information about Texas, but optician licensing in that state is voluntary, so it may not be illegal to dispense online in Texas.

Obviously, each state has their own laws on these matters.

[drk]

I am not an expert in this area, but I googled and found this information about the state of New York that "suggests" that it is legal (just ill-advised).

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/od/odbroch.htm

Can I buy my prescription eyeglasses online?
New York State law requires prescription eyewear to be fitted and dispensed in person by a licensed practitioner (ophthalmic dispenser/optician, optometrist, ophthalmologist). Although any number of websites offer the sale of eyewear, the consumer must be aware of a number of things. Prescription eyeglasses are highly customized. There are numerous measurements that go into the fitting and fabrication that cannot be conveyed over the phone or internet. These include, but are not limited to: the shape of your nose and ears, the width of your face and the overall size of your head. Measurements such as these, and bifocal or multifocal height, can only be measured when you are face to face with a dispenser wearing the eyeglass frames you are planning to purchase.

In addition, the form, thickness, and material that your prescription lenses are made of should be discussed with your eyecare professional. A bargain that may be advertised online may result in a pair of glasses being heavier than necessary, or cause eye fatigue or headache. New Yorkers are advised to be wise consumers and consult their eyecare professional.

I could not find any information about Texas, but optician licensing in that state is voluntary, so it may not be illegal to dispense online in Texas.

Obviously, each state has their own laws on these matters.

Each state indeed has their own laws. The one I'm familiar with regulates only intrastate glasses dispensing, and has no jurisdiction across state lines. That's another loophole.

Simply put, the laws aren't strong enough, and those that are on the books are not properly enforced, nor are violations properly prosecuted.

Nobody cares.

[m0002a]

Each state indeed has their own laws. The one I'm familiar with regulates only intrastate glasses dispensing, and has no jurisdiction across state lines. That's another loophole.

Does that mean you know of a state that prohibits online sales of Rx glasses to patients in-state? In other words, that requires that a patient be fitted for glasses in-person instead of on-phone or on-line (obviously not talking about contacts). Just curious.

[Chris Ryser]

Inaccurate. Wholesale labs don't go direct to patient.

Correction: What I was saying was, that they work the same way as a wholesale lab. They get the information and make the glasses. I have had a lab for 20 years and never needed any license to operate, but at that time we sold only to opticians and optometrists, but probably could have sold to anybody. We where never questioned on it.

How about "E"in the near future decentralizing their lab work for their online outlets and have the many or all of their labs making them close by the online receipient, to save transport cost ? They have the organization right in place. That might be your next surprise.

Order today and get them tomorrow, in most locations.

[m0002a]

Correction: What I was saying was, that they work the same way as a wholesale lab. They get the information and make the glasses. I have had a lab for 20 years and never needed any license to operate, but at that time we sold only to opticians and optometrists, but probably could have sold to anybody. We where never questioned on it.

How about "E"in the near future decentralizing their lab work for their online outlets and have the many or all of their labs making them close by the online receipient, to save transport cost ? They have the organization right in place. That might be your next surprise.

Order today and get them tomorrow, in most locations.

As I mentioned above, the website http://www.eyeglasslensdirect.com is located in Texas (suburb of Houston) and does not appear to be run by a lab. It appears to be run by an OD or an optician, operating out of a virtual office location (http://www.davincivirtual.com/loc/us...s/facility-912) called Greatwood Business Center (the building says Tower Executive Suites). So if they have a brick and motar store, it is somewhere else. They have a fairly wide variety of lens brands (Essilor/Varilux, Zeiss, Seiko, Shamir).

From looking at the website, it appears they do not sell frames, so the frames must be sent to the on-line retailer, and they ship them back to patient with lenses installed. I doubt that shipping cost is a factor, since they are likely shipped at fixed cost via US Postal Service.

[drk]

We where never questioned on it.

Unfortunately, in a society that wants to govern itself instead of being a police state, self-governing people are expected to self-govern and obey the law. Yes, you could have been criminal and broke the law and gotten away with it. You could also probably rob an old lady and get away with it as well.

How about "E"in the near future decentralizing their lab work for their online outlets and have the many or all of their labs making them close by the online receipient, to save transport cost ? They have the organization right in place. That might be your next surprise.

Order today and get them tomorrow, in most locations.

With essilor and VSP possibly bankrupting most smaller, independent labs, I wouldn't be suprised if all that unused capacity didn't go to some use. Hey, why outsource to Vietnam when you have a starving American you can pay minimum wage to? That's the global economy's end game, anyway.

[Safari]

Interesting...thank you all for your input

[MikeAurelius]

Basically, it comes down to this:

Interstate commerce (all of it) is regulated by the gummit (Commerce Department). One state CANNOT force the businesses of other states to conform to their regulations (except in very specific circumstances, as in the aforementioned ammunition).

Most, if not all, the onliners are in states where there is no licensing required of dispensers, or, in some cases, in a foreign country. In those latter cases, the FDA can (and has) step in and inspect the merchandise to ensure that it conforms to its regulations (essentially ANSI Z80). Last year or the year before, the FDA held and refused entry to several large lots of spectacle Rx's that were coming in from labs in China because they did not have proper documentation of safety standards (impact testing etc), as well as improper import documentation.

[m0002a]

Interstate commerce (all of it) is regulated by the gummit (Commerce Department). One state CANNOT force the businesses of other states to conform to their regulations (except in very specific circumstances, as in the aforementioned ammunition).

That may be if you are talking about the state where the customer resides. But if a state where the online dispenser does business from wanted to prohibit dispensing online to patients in their state or other states, they are within their rights to do so.

Most, if not all, the onliners are in states where there is no licensing required of dispensers, or, in some cases, in a foreign country. In those latter cases, the FDA can (and has) step in and inspect the merchandise to ensure that it conforms to its regulations (essentially ANSI Z80). Last year or the year before, the FDA held and refused entry to several large lots of spectacle Rx's that were coming in from labs in China because they did not have proper documentation of safety standards (impact testing etc), as well as improper import documentation.

Optician licensing has nothing to do with it. The site I mentioned above is in Texas, which has voluntary licensing, but even if they had mandatory licensing it is not that big of a deal to get opticians licensed. The site in Texas apparently does not sell frames, and dispenses name brand stuff from Varilux/Essilor, Zeiss, Sekio, Shamir, etc, so the FDA has nothing to do with it.

[MikeAurelius]

That may be if you are talking about the state where the customer resides. But if a state where the online dispenser does business from wanted to prohibit dispensing online to patients in their state or other states, they are within their rights to do so.

Actually, they cannot prohibit dispensing to other states. Only within their own state. Again, interstate commerce.

Optician licensing has nothing to do with it. The site I mentioned above is in Texas, which has voluntary licensing, but even if they had mandatory licensing it is not that big of a deal to get opticians licensed. The site in Texas apparently does not sell frames, and dispenses name brand stuff from Varilux/Essilor, Zeiss, Sekio, Shamir, etc, so the FDA has nothing to do with it.

Licensing has everything to do with it. Take for example Mass. They have a very rigorous licensing process. There will never be an online dispensary in Mass because of it. They exist in Texas because it is VOLUNTARY, not mandatory.

And the FDA regulates the items coming into the states from foreign countries, which, if you read my quote closely, you would have noticed. They don't take much notice of optical commerce in the US unless there are major health concerns (like bad saline etc.).

The site you linked, is one of many, but one of a very few that DOES NOT sell frames.

[m0002a]

Actually, they cannot prohibit dispensing to other states. Only within their own state. Again, interstate commerce.

I disagree. In most states the initial fitting of contact lenses must be in person. Selling contacts online does not obviate this legal requirement. Also, when I looked at the online site in Texas, there is no evidence that a patient in Texas cannot purchase lenses there (intra-state commerce).

Licensing has everything to do with it. Take for example Mass. They have a very rigorous licensing process. There will never be an online dispensary in Mass because of it. They exist in Texas because it is VOLUNTARY, not mandatory.

Are you talking about licensing of opticians, or of optical businesses? I don't think it has anything to do with it. States usually prohibit online sales of contacts unless they are initially fit first in person, regardless of whether opticians are licensed. In NY (see my post above) opticians are licensed, but it "appears" to me (from reading the quote I posted above) that online dispensing of glasses is not illegal.

And the FDA regulates the items coming into the states from foreign countries, which, if you read my quote closely, you would have noticed. They don't take much notice of optical commerce in the US unless there are major health concerns (like bad saline etc.).

I understand what you are saying about offshore online opticals, but the one I mentioned in TX is obviously not offshore and they sell name brand lenses. My suspicion is that the place in TX is an OD and/or optical store that has a separate/regular brick and mortar place of business (partly because the online address is in a virtual office location).

[MikeAurelius]

I disagree. In most states the initial fitting of contact lenses must be in person. Selling contacts online does not obviate this legal requirement. Also, when I looked at the online site in Texas, there is no evidence that a patient in Texas cannot purchase lenses there (intra-state commerce).


Are you talking about licensing of opticians, or of optical businesses? I don't think it has anything to do with it. States usually prohibit online sales of contacts unless they are initially fit first in person, regardless of whether opticians are licensed. In NY (see my post above) opticians are licensed, but it "appears" to me (from reading the quote I posted above) that online dispensing of glasses is not illegal.


I understand what you are saying about offshore online opticals, but the one I mentioned in TX is obviously not offshore and they sell name brand lenses. My suspicion is that the place in TX is an OD and/or optical store that has a separate/regular brick and mortar place of business (partly because the online address is in a virtual office location).

Good lord. Are you even processing the words I'm writing????

I am talking about purely INTERstate - between the states. INTRAstate, inside the state is regulated business. INTERstate cannot be regulated by the state.

Licensing of opticians, dispensers, is what I'm talking about.

Contact lens sales are a regulated INTERstate commerce, that all the states have agreed to. Spectacle lens sales are NOT regulated for INTERstate commerce.

[m0002a]

My suspicion is that the place in TX is an OD and/or optical store that has a separate/regular brick and mortar place of business (partly because the online address is in a virtual office location).

I am retracting my suspicion. By Googling, I found out that the owner of online website www.eyeglasslensdirect.com is Steve Villani and I cannot find any brick and mortar store or practice associated with him.

[drk]

What the states need to do is raise the fine for each occurence to a worthwhile number so that it pays for itself.

If each occurrence involves a $5000 fine, made payable to "Treasurer, State of Michigan", then that little agency is a cash cow.

Ohio has one (!) investigator. One. Probably costs the state about $50K/yr, all done and told. He could pay for his job and more with one bust of ACLens, here in Columbus, who dispenses to Ohioans in violation of Ohio laws.

Why the heck do you think municipalities set up speed traps or put stop-light cameras in?

Just one more reason each state should have opticianry licensed, so not just any clown can practice opticianry.

[MikeAurelius]

I guess one of the things I'm trying to get across is that the genie is out of the bottle, and attempting to regulate this business by passing additional laws or having states move to more regulation, is moving against the general flow of state and federal governments. There seems to be a feeling on both sides of the aisles that there are too many laws and regulations, and a movement towards deregulation, because regulations cost money. As Dr. K points out, one investigator for the entire state. I wouldn't be surprised to see that job eliminated at some point in the future.

The right side of the aisle wants small government, less regulation. When you add regulations, you increase the size of government, you increase the amount of spending, and that is what the right side of the aisle is try to eliminate. You can't have it both ways.

Personally, I foresee a general movement towards more internet commerce by the optical industry, where the optician now has a website, and does business online, accepting orders for existing patients, and having them come in for a fitting. This fills the 67% or so of the normal business, where you don't make a lot of money anyway (making a profit on a 1st division flat top???). This leaves the outliers on either side, the most profitable part of the business.

The younger generation, those 40 and below, are the future and they are used to buying online. They will expect to buy their eyewear online. They get automatic refills from Walgreens and CVS online, why not eyewear. They won't understand why until you educate them. Until they are educated, they won't ever walk into your store.

[drk]

I guess one of the things I'm trying to get across is that the genie is out of the bottle, and attempting to regulate this business by passing additional laws or having states move to more regulation, is moving against the general flow of state and federal governments. There seems to be a feeling on both sides of the aisles that there are too many laws and regulations, and a movement towards deregulation, because regulations cost money. As Dr. K points out, one investigator for the entire state. I wouldn't be surprised to see that job eliminated at some point in the future.

The right side of the aisle wants small government, less regulation. When you add regulations, you increase the size of government, you increase the amount of spending, and that is what the right side of the aisle is try to eliminate. You can't have it both ways.

Personally, I foresee a general movement towards more internet commerce by the optical industry, where the optician now has a website, and does business online, accepting orders for existing patients, and having them come in for a fitting. This fills the 67% or so of the normal business, where you don't make a lot of money anyway (making a profit on a 1st division flat top???). This leaves the outliers on either side, the most profitable part of the business.

The younger generation, those 40 and below, are the future and they are used to buying online. They will expect to buy their eyewear online. They get automatic refills from Walgreens and CVS online, why not eyewear. They won't understand why until you educate them. Until they are educated, they won't ever walk into your store.

I gotta give it to you, Mike. That's a pretty convincing outlook.