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Thread: Question regarding online sales

  1. #51
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    Redhot Jumper Here look at the Florida Dispensing Law ..............................

    Here look at the Florida Dispensing Law"

    http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statute...Chapter484/All

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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    Because some licensed states have specific laws on Rx eye wear delivery. i.e. a licensed optician has to be present or do the final fit.


    In Texas (non-licensed) a monkey can dispense (and maybe better than some I've seen) There is no law on the books here on whom (or what) can dispense or sell Rx eye wear. The same as about 28 other states. I could call our AG but they would take no action because no laws are being broken (here).
    In Texas, even though optician licensing is optional, they still have regulations about dispensing, such as needing a current Rx from an OD, etc. The regulations are pretty much the same as other states. The issue of whether the individual optician has to be licensed or not has nothing to do with whether the state regulates certain aspects of dispensing Rx glasses and contacts.

    For example, in Texas:
    What are the laws that regulate opticians?

    In Texas, there are three different laws that may regulate the activities of opticians. Opticians who choose to become registered dispensing opticians are subject to the Opticians’ Registry Act. Registered dispensing opticians must also comply with the rules of the Texas Board of Health that relate to opticianry. Opticians who are not registered dispensing opticians are subject to certain requirements of the Texas Optometry Act.

    All opticians and optical businesses that sell, deliver, or dispense contact lenses in Texas are subject to the permit requirements of the Texas Contact Lens Prescription Act, even if they are registered dispensing opticians.
    http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/optician/opt_laws.shtm

    BTW, if you want to file a complaint, you should contact the state agency in charge of regulations for opticians and optical businesses, not the AG. In Texas, that would be the Texas Department of Health Services.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Here look at the Florida Dispensing Law"

    http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statute...Chapter484/All
    484.018 Exceptions.—
    (1) Nothing in this part shall be construed to prevent a person licensed in this state as a physician or as an optometrist from performing those services she or he is licensed to perform.
    (2) Nothing in this part shall be construed to mean that an employee of a licensed physician or a licensed optometrist shall be required to secure a license under this part, so long as the employee is working exclusively for, and under the direct supervision of, the licensed physician or optometrist and does not hold herself or himself out to the public generally as an optician.

    So in an OD office, none of the staff who dispense have to be licensed opticians so long as they are "under supervision of the licensed physician or optometrist." Giant loophole.

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    Blue Jumper So now we are all back to ....................--------------> 000000000000000

    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post

    So in an OD office, none of the staff who dispense have to be licensed opticians so long as they are "under supervision of the licensed physician or optometrist." Giant loophole.

    That giant loophole is probably valid just about anywhere in a controlled state.........................

    The worlds largest online opticals now belong to Essilor who is well informed as far as I know.

    Wherever there is need for a licensend person they will have one. They will do their outmost to outsmart any law that would prohibit them from operating at full speed.

    So now we are all back to ....................--------------> 000000000000000

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    That giant loophole is probably valid just about anywhere in a controlled state.........................

    The worlds largest online opticals now belong to Essilor who is well informed as far as I know.

    Wherever there is need for a licensend person they will have one. They will do their outmost to outsmart any law that would prohibit them from operating at full speed.

    So now we are all back to ....................--------------> 000000000000000
    I hate to keep repeating myself, but the issue of online dispensing has nothing to do with whether opticians are licensed. A state could (if they wanted to) outlaw online Rx lens dispensing (by requiring a face to face fitting, etc), regardless of whether they required dispensers to be licensed or not. At the very least, this would be true for intra-state sales. So if there is a reason why states do not ban online sales it has nothing to do with licensing and nothing to do with interstate commerce jurisdiction.

    Given that people can buy reading glasses at Walmart, I assume that it would be hard to prohibit online sales of Rx eyeglasses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    Easy now fellas. Be sure you differentiate between a "State Statue" aka "Law" and a "Board Rule".
    A state statue aka law means that the state can charge and prosecute you with a crime.
    Board Rule means that a governing state body may spank you for breaking one of their rules. But the state cannot charge you with a crime. Sounds like some are now starting to try and split hairs here.
    CC, your own states opticianry Regs throw the words "law" and "lawful" around a lot, but call it what you wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    In Texas, even though optician licensing is optional, they still have regulations about dispensing, such as needing a current Rx from an OD, etc. The regulations are pretty much the same as other states. The issue of whether the individual optician has to be licensed or not has nothing to do with whether the state regulates certain aspects of dispensing Rx glasses and contacts.

    For example, in Texas:
    What are the laws that regulate opticians?

    In Texas, there are three different laws that may regulate the activities of opticians. Opticians who choose to become registered dispensing opticians are subject to the Opticians’ Registry Act. Registered dispensing opticians must also comply with the rules of the Texas Board of Health that relate to opticianry. Opticians who are not registered dispensing opticians are subject to certain requirements of the Texas Optometry Act.

    All opticians and optical businesses that sell, deliver, or dispense contact lenses in Texas are subject to the permit requirements of the Texas Contact Lens Prescription Act, even if they are registered dispensing opticians.
    http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/optician/opt_laws.shtm

    BTW, if you want to file a complaint, you should contact the state agency in charge of regulations for opticians and optical businesses, not the AG. In Texas, that would be the Texas Department of Health Services.
    Not sure what you're saying here, other than report to the agency in charge. I'm kinda familiar with Texas regs on Opticianry, Optometry and Ophthalmology. Other than the most basic things (refraction, foreign body removal, representing yourself as a DR, ect) There ARE no regulation of opening an Optical Shop and selling glasses. (notice, I didn't say CL's.)

    I've read a lot of other states regs though and some DO require the personal hand off of glasses, even with the *loophole*, they require "Direct Supervision" which can not occur thru the postal department. Once again, you would need to be in a state with some kind of "Board Rule" on dispensing eye wear to even file a complaint. This was my (exhaustive) point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    I've read a lot of other states regs though and some DO require the personal hand off of glasses, even with the *loophole*, they require "Direct Supervision" which can not occur thru the postal department. Once again, you would need to be in a state with some kind of "Board Rule" on dispensing eye wear to even file a complaint. This was my (exhaustive) point.
    If a state requires "personal hand off of glasses" that sounds like that rule/law "might" prohibit online sales of Rx eyeglasses. Do you know what states those are so that we could examine the regs in detail? I wonder how that applies to online sites that sell reading glasses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    484.018 Exceptions.—
    (1) Nothing in this part shall be construed to prevent a person licensed in this state as a physician or as an optometrist from performing those services she or he is licensed to perform.
    (2) Nothing in this part shall be construed to mean that an employee of a licensed physician or a licensed optometrist shall be required to secure a license under this part, so long as the employee is working exclusively for, and under the direct supervision of, the licensed physician or optometrist and does not hold herself or himself out to the public generally as an optician.

    So in an OD office, none of the staff who dispense have to be licensed opticians so long as they are "under supervision of the licensed physician or optometrist." Giant loophole.
    Loophole is not that large now. Read it correctly, do not pick and choose what you want people to see.
    484.018 (2) clearly states...................."direct supervision of,"

    Now under Definitions... Florida Chapter 484.002 (5) Direct supervision means supervision where the licensee remains on the premises while all work is being done and gives final approval to any work performed by an employee.

    Loop hole is not so large now is it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    Loophole is not that large now. Read it correctly, do not pick and choose what you want people to see.
    484.018 (2) clearly states...................."direct supervision of,"

    Now under Definitions... Florida Chapter 484.002 (5) Direct supervision means supervision where the licensee remains on the premises while all work is being done and gives final approval to any work performed by an employee.

    Loop hole is not so large now is it.
    I guess we have different opinions on that. Having the OD onsite all the time, and giving final approval doesn't really mean that much to me. Besides, I don't think OD's are the greatest opticians in the world, for the same reason why ophthalmologists don't always give the best refractions (compared to a OD).

  10. #60
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    OK I will add to it for you

    Violations and Penalties

    Fl chapter 484.013 (1b)
    To prepare or dispense lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses or other optical devices when such a person is not licensed as an optician in this state.

    As you can tell Florida has some really tough laws and rules regulating us. Now just why they have yet to be enforced concerning on line eyeglasses and contacts......I have no idea. Bet it has more to do with politics then what meets the eye or what we hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    OK I will add to it for you

    Violations and Penalties

    Fl chapter 484.013 (1b)
    To prepare or dispense lenses, spectacles, eyeglasses, contact lenses or other optical devices when such a person is not licensed as an optician in this state.

    As you can tell Florida has some really tough laws and rules regulating us. Now just why they have yet to be enforced concerning on line eyeglasses and contacts......I have no idea. Bet it has more to do with politics then what meets the eye or what we hear.
    Why are you associating the requirement for optician licensing with online sales? How do you know whether the person who handles the online order is licensed? Would it be any better if the person who handles the online order where a licensed optician?

    The two issues (permitting online sales, and licensing of opticians) have nothing to do with each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    Why are you associating the requirement for optician licensing with online sales? How do you know whether the person who handles the online order is licensed? Would it be any better if the person who handles the online order where a licensed optician?

    The two issues (permitting online sales, and licensing of opticians) have nothing to do with each other.
    2a, you keep missing the main point...You have to have a rule/law/something on the books that spells out what you can and cannot do in a given state. If there are no rules/laws/something to point to that online violates you got nothing!

    Let me put it this way, if you wished to report illegal eye wear dispensing in Colorado, whom would you report the violation? Answer; There's nobody to report it to because dispensing eye wear is not regulated in your state! There's no Colorado law/rule/something to state that said company is violating dispensing of eye wear!


    I hope that makes it easier to understand why you would need some kind of licensing body to even file a complaint.

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    I believe this thread has been wore out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by optical24/7 View Post
    2a, you keep missing the main point...You have to have a rule/law/something on the books that spells out what you can and cannot do in a given state. If there are no rules/laws/something to point to that online violates you got nothing!

    Let me put it this way, if you wished to report illegal eye wear dispensing in Colorado, whom would you report the violation? Answer; There's nobody to report it to because dispensing eye wear is not regulated in your state! There's no Colorado law/rule/something to state that said company is violating dispensing of eye wear!


    I hope that makes it easier to understand why you would need some kind of licensing body to even file a complaint.
    I agree with you. I never said there was such a rule or law that banned online sales. Others have said there are such laws, or that they cannot be enforced since some states do not require licensed opticians. I said, no, it has nothing to do with whether opticians are licensed, it has to do with at least some states (or maybe all states) have chosen to not prohibit online sales. All states have regulatory bodies and laws governing optical dispensing, but apparently none on them ban online sales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    I believe this thread has been wore out.
    Then don't read it. I am still waiting for some one to show us a state that prohibits online sales.

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    I don't know that there is a state prohibiting online sales as of yet. I was just curious as to why they can't or won't prohibit it in states where the dispensing laws are strict. So far, what I have gathered from the forum is that it would be a state by state decision to move forward with that or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safari View Post
    I don't know that there is a state prohibiting online sales as of yet. I was just curious as to why they can't or won't prohibit it in states where the dispensing laws are strict. So far, what I have gathered from the forum is that it would be a state by state decision to move forward with that or not.
    Yes, each state has their own optical regulations. For example, only a few states have restrictions on over-the-counter reading glasses, and then they only restrict how powerful they can be without an Rx (low power readers are OK).

    As previously noted, states cannot restrict a patient from purchasing a lens online from a business located in another state (interstate commerce), and they can only prevent online vendors from operating in their own state, so maybe they think it would be futile to attempt to regulate it.

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    Redhot Jumper dont cry for a comfortable life as it used to be ....................................

    Internet advertising and selling is no more just a USA interstate dealing through your computer, it is now more complex and gone world wide. The avalanche has started to roll a few years ago and was belittled right here on OB when mentioned, and is now in a full and un-stoppable run.

    Nobody will be able to stop the progress the web has made in a speed that nobody ever expected. Plan ahead to deal with it and dont cry for a comfortable life as it used to be , as it will not come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    I can't prove a negative. But as I suggested earlier, let's take the inter-state issue out of this. There are states that apparently do not prohibit online sales of Rx eyeglasses intra-state (See my quote from NY state above). For all I know, all states allow it (but I don't know that for sure). Your claim is that states are prohibited from restricting online sales because of inter-state commerce clause, but even if you are right, that does not explain why they don't prohibit intra-state online sales.
    So, all you are doing is "perhaps", or "supposition". Sorry, but that's not going to fly.

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    So if there is a reason why states do not ban online sales it has nothing to do with licensing and nothing to do with interstate commerce jurisdiction.
    It has EVERYTHING to do with interstate commerce jurisdiction.

    The internet is everywhere. It is impossible to "block" websites on the basis of state lines in the United States. The internet is considered to be the single most defining feature of interstate commerce, even more so than a non-local trucking line.

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    I wish that we would all worry less and stop fretting about what on-line sellers can and can't do and start worrying more about becoming the very best at what we do...........and DO IT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    It has EVERYTHING to do with interstate commerce jurisdiction.

    The internet is everywhere. It is impossible to "block" websites on the basis of state lines in the United States. The internet is considered to be the single most defining feature of interstate commerce, even more so than a non-local trucking line.
    If a state wanted to prohibit online dispensing of Rx eyeglasses for opticians operating in their state (licensed or unlicensed) then they are free to do so and could enforce such laws. However, you are correct that a state cannot prohibit an online optician located out of their state from selling to patients in their state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    So, all you are doing is "perhaps", or "supposition". Sorry, but that's not going to fly.
    What flies or doesn't fly is not the sole prerogative of MikeAurelius. I cannot prove a negative any more than you can prove that you have stopped beating your spouse/GF/dog, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    If a state wanted to prohibit online dispensing of Rx eyeglasses for opticians operating in their state (licensed or unlicensed) then they are free to do so and could enforce such laws. However, you are correct that a state cannot prohibit an online optician located out of their state from selling to patients in their state.
    Most (if not all) states have "fair trade" laws, which prevent restraint of trade, which is exactly what you are proposing.

    Why are you worrying what some other optician in your state does? Why don't you, as Fezz says, concentrate on what YOU are doing? If there is something so wrong with your business that you need to regulate your competitors in order to survive, you are doing something wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    What flies or doesn't fly is not the sole prerogative of MikeAurelius. I cannot prove a negative any more than you can prove that you have stopped beating your spouse/GF/dog, etc.
    I beat my cat every day. He enjoys it.

    I never said it was my sole perogative, you, once again, are putting power in my hands that does not exist. I am merely stating an observable fact, the basis of which I have posted above.

    Regulatory power is decreasing. This is a proven FACT. The right side of the aisle wants more competition. So be it. They've opened the flood gates, and now you don't like it. Tough. Figure out a way to survive, or find another business to be in.

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