Anyone else think that progressive lenses are useless???

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 06:34 PM

I think it's safe to say that basically ALL PAL's are a waste of money. I would rather sell a presbyope 3 pairs, or while I'm at it--maybe even 7 pairs of glasses at 7 different focal lengths (If that's what the pt. needs). Sure they are probably going to be burdened by taking them on and off all the time, but at least they will never have visual problems, and if they do, SV lenses are the EASIEST thing in the world to troubleshoot. 95% of the time, my remakes and HM (High Maintenance) patients that cry and complain and kick up a fuss are always progressive lens patients.

Progressive lenses were founded on vanity and cosmetics in mind as the MAIN goal, and NOT V.A. "I just don't want people to think I'm old!! OH NO NEVER!!!!!"

With that said, Ultra-Premium PAL's are even worse and even more of a waste. Ultra-Premium Lenses are not part of the formula to make your optical business grow. Just look at the huge 100 million dollar top optical companies; like ECCA etc. -- Now those guys do it right. They don't promote Ultra-Premium lenses in their 2 pairs for "whatever" sale. I think it says something when huge money making optical's use cheap frames and basic lenses.... Ever wonder why?? -- Now of course those retailers LOVE for their opticians to up-sell to premium (or at least "premium" in retail standards) product, but they stick to the basics and they keep things very cheap to bring traffic into the store. Do you ever see commercials for ultra premium progressive lenses ?? No

**Craig** · 02-07-2014, 06:47 PM

What is your point? That you work in in a factory that puts out poor quality glasses and you do not understand why you are having issues. Sounds like you need a new career; we do 97% progressives and our average client is 65. We would not have them all come back and get another one if they where having a problem.
Maybe you need to polish up on your skills?

Craig (proud to dispense on the best eyewear made)

**Optician1960** · 02-07-2014, 06:54 PM

After my 1st 20 years in the optical business, I started wearing my 1st PAL. I believed when dispensing them prior, I was doing the right thing by my patients. After wearing my 1st pair through today. now I know it was the right thing. I could not imagine wearing only reading, or only distance, with rare exception.

Examples:
Driving with only distance is a no go.
At work where we are using our computers, reading materials and working with people (all at different distances) would be a distraction and a disaster. Even something as simple as getting cardio on a stationary bike where I might read a book and/or have a conversation with the person next to me involves a lense with more than one focal length (currently Workspace design).

1234: Have you worn a PAL? Have you dispensed 3-4-5-6-7 pair to mom or dad and then given them a PAL and asked them which they would prefer?

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Craig

What is your point? That you work in in a factory that puts out poor quality glasses and you do not understand why you are having issues. Sounds like you need a new career; we do 97% progressives and our average client is 65. We would not have them all come back and get another one if they where having a problem.
Maybe you need to polish up on your skills?

Craig (proud to dispense on the best eyewear made)

Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

Just think about it, the whole concept of a progressive lens is just plain STUPID ... A thin (8mm wide avg. in the intermediate zone) corridor where all of the sharpest vision is ... How idiotic is that?

**Optician1960** · 02-07-2014, 07:25 PM

1234: Are you sure you are meant for a customer facing profession? Sorry if that is a bit abrupt, but I am trying to find something positive in any of your comments, and boy it is rough to do so...

Your comment: Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

As Craig points out as do many other opticians here, they do not seem to have the stresses that you are pointing to. Who trained you/have you been trained in: lifestyle Q+A, product knowledge, frame selection, pre-fitting, measuring, final inspection, final dispense and follow up? If you cannot truly say that this has been accomplished at a high level, then this is probably where much of the stress is coming from. Well educated, skilled and personable opticians generally love what they do with a great majority of their patients... If every PAL patient you have looks like they will bring you terror before you even serve them, then you may be bringing some of this on yourself...

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1960

1234: Are you sure you are meant for a customer facing profession? Sorry if that is a bit abrupt, but I am trying to find something positive in any of your comments, and boy it is rough to do so...

Your comment: Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

As Craig points out as do many other opticians here, they do not seem to have the stresses that you are pointing to. Who trained you/have you been trained in: lifestyle Q+A, product knowledge, frame selection, pre-fitting, measuring, final inspection, final dispense and follow up? If you cannot truly say that this has been accomplished at a high level, then this is probably where much of the stress is coming from. Well educated, skilled and personable opticians generally love what they do with a great majority of their patients... If every PAL patient you have looks like they will bring you terror before you even serve them, then you may be bringing some of this on yourself...

Originally Posted by Optician1960

1234: Are you sure you are meant for a customer facing profession? Sorry if that is a bit abrupt, but I am trying to find something positive in any of your comments, and boy it is rough to do so...

Your comment: Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

As Craig points out as do many other opticians here, they do not seem to have the stresses that you are pointing to. Who trained you/have you been trained in: lifestyle Q+A, product knowledge, frame selection, pre-fitting, measuring, final inspection, final dispense and follow up? If you cannot truly say that this has been accomplished at a high level, then this is probably where much of the stress is coming from. Well educated, skilled and personable opticians generally love what they do with a great majority of their patients... If every PAL patient you have looks like they will bring you terror before you even serve them, then you may be bringing some of this on yourself...

Only 10% of PAL patients really kick up a fuss at my office. This isn't some phenomena that only I am experiencing. I have worked with hundreds of opticians at out-of-state conferences, different jobs etc. and they all tell me the same thing: "oh man, PAL wearers are really the only patients that cause problems" .

I'm gonna take a guess and say you are NOT an optician that works with patients on a daily basis, otherwise you would understand. And if you are an optician that works at an optical then maybe you do not understand because you have a very poor performing location (ie. not making more than 100 dollars a day). Am I right?

**opty4062** · 02-07-2014, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1234

Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

Just think about it, the whole concept of a progressive lens is just plain STUPID ... A thin (8mm wide avg. in the intermediate zone) corridor where all of the sharpest vision is ... How idiotic is that?

Do I smell troll or are you sincere? Point A: Are you serious? Are you in business to help people? If not do those of us who are a favor and get out of opticianry. If helping people stresses you out, if customers need more than what you are capable of doing and so complain, it is not an issue with them, but rather with you.

**Optician1960** · 02-07-2014, 07:48 PM

1234, my friend, I am disappointed that you have not spent time with Bill or Laurie at Hillsborough as an examples. If you had, you would not be able to make the statement "...and they ALL tell me the same thing..."

I have dispensed in some incredibly busy optical stores and been trained by and with some of the best opticians one could ask for (IMHO). The big difference though is that I love the personal interaction with the customer, before, during and after the sale, period... I do not see them as the problem, I see them as my opportunity to be a professional and make their day. For me it is about knowing what I am doing, being able to do it well and wanting to make their day. That may not work every time, but I try every time... Give that school of thought a try and see what comes of it. If you still see them as the problem, even 10% of the time, then again I would suggest that a customer facing profession may not be your best calling...

Regards...

**cocoisland58** · 02-07-2014, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1234

Point is: A lot of stress would be lifted from the optician's shoulders if they never had to deal with the crying and complaining from PAL patients.

That is the least of my stress plus most of their complaints are legit. You are obviously in the wrong area of the business. Perhaps a nice quiet lab job would be better.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by opty4062

Do I smell troll or are you sincere? Point A: Are you serious? Are you in business to help people? If not do those of us who are a favor and get out of opticianry. If helping people stresses you out, if customers need more than what you are capable of doing and so complain, it is not an issue with them, but rather with you.

I want to help people by telling them the truth: That PAL's are a waste of money! ... Oh my god, I didn't know there were so many reps and NON-opticians on opti-board

**Java99** · 02-07-2014, 07:50 PM

10% is high. Some people will never adapt, but not 10%. Something is going wrong where you work. It could be opticians, labs, refractions, frame choice vs rx, equipment from pupilometers to cylinder machines, but that is not normal.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1960

1234, my friend, I am disappointed that you have not spent time with Bill or Laurie at Hillsborough as an examples. If you had, you would not be able to make the statement "...and they ALL tell me the same thing..."

I have dispensed in some incredibly busy optical stores and been trained by and with some of the best opticians one could ask for (IMHO). The big difference though is that I love the personal interaction with the customer, before, during and after the sale, period... I do not see them as the problem, I see them as my opportunity to be a professional and make their day. For me it is about knowing what I am doing, being able to do it well and wanting to make their day. That may not work every time, but I try every time... Give that school of thought a try and see what comes of it. If you still see them as the problem, even 10% of the time, then again I would suggest that a customer facing profession may not be your best calling...

Regards...

I am sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you work (or HAVE worked, since you keep referring to your old age) in a very low-volume optical. And, what country do you live in? Here in America, most people have to work in some sort of industry where there is a "conusmer/customer" and you have to play the role of the "provider" to that "conusmer/customer" ... That is a major concept of human society that dates back to thousands of years ago, in case you didn't know.

I would love to work in the optical where you work, where it's nothing but ALL compassionate customers you deal with that NEVER get mad or have problems. Give me a break, you obviously work in a tiny optical in most likely a small town farm community.

**opty4062** · 02-07-2014, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1234

I want to help people by telling them the truth: That PAL's are a waste of money! ... Oh my god, I didn't know there were so many reps and NON-opticians on opti-board

I will not dignify the dig at being NON optician by astounding you with my professional credentials while you seem to be stomping your feet like a child. If you just joined optiboard you don't know who is here at all. The overwhelming response to your OP is that if you are having such a high number of whining complaining patients, as you call them, and we aren't, maybe it's not the lenses.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Java99

10% is high. Some people will never adapt, but not 10%. Something is going wrong where you work. It could be opticians, labs, refractions, frame choice vs rx, equipment from pupilometers to cylinder machines, but that is not normal.

10 percent is quite low actually... Once again, there is a disparity in my optician experience compared to yours and others... All practices are different... retail vs. private practice ... low volume vs. medium/ high volume stores.... Age demographics of average patients etc.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by opty4062

I will not dignify the dig at being NON optician by astounding you with my professional credentials while you seem to be stomping your feet like a child. If you just joined optiboard you don't know who is here at all. The overwhelming response to your OP is that if you are having such a high number of whining complaining patients, as you call them, and we aren't, maybe it's not the lenses.

By "we" you must mean the small amount of opticians that use Optiboard. Most opticians do NOT know about or care to use Optiboard.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by cocoisland58

That is the least of my stress plus most of their complaints are legit. You are obviously in the wrong area of the business. Perhaps a nice quiet lab job would be better.

Some optical shops are very "quiet" too.

**opty4062** · 02-07-2014, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1234

By "we" you must mean the small amount of opticians that use Optiboard. Most opticians do NOT know about or care to use Optiboard.

Of course that is what I meant, those who are responding to your posts. I am just not that interested in investigating why you come off as so angry and combative. Good luck to you, sounds like you need it.

**Optician1960** · 02-07-2014, 08:36 PM

LMAO at your old and other comments... my 24 year old son is also LHAO...

Funny thing is, I have dispensed in Manhattan, Chicago and a few other places that most would not consider hick towns (last I heard they were part of the good ole USA), and some of the busier opticals in each of those cities (tough clientele also)... So experience in busy stores is not an issue.

The difference is that I see opticianry as a commitment (degree in ophthalmic science), and loving what I have the pleasure of doing, not playing a role. Also never said that ALL patients are compassionate. But when they are not, it is time to kill them with kindness and turn them into a life long customer...

Customers will also recognize when the person in front of them is confident in what they are doing, and if they do not feel this, then the non-compassionate customer as you call them is likely to become even less compassionate...

Sorry for the tough love, but I would hope that some of this is getting to your core so that you can find that you love this and make the commitment or make a commitment to something else that you love... Life is too short, at least as seen by us old guys... LOL...

**rdcoach5** · 02-07-2014, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1234

I want to help people by telling them the truth: That PAL's are a waste of money! ... Oh my god, I didn't know there were so many reps and NON-opticians on opti-board

If you hold your breath and and tongue and want to deal with optical patients you will find a fascinating career. If you truly think flattops are superior to progressives, why do you think progressives out sell flattops by 9 to one in our practice. I see that flattops actually outsell progressives nationally by a small margin , according to 20/20 mag. I will submit a theory that poorly fitted progressive do not work and that encompasses proper panto,vertex and wrap. In other words, if you don't understand what I just said, you should not be fitting progressives. I have worn flattops and I MUCH prefer progressives, but only quality fitted progressives with quality designs. That means updated free-form digital designs like IOT or Zeiss GT2 3D. chack out IOT's website http://www.iot.es/

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Optician1960

LMAO at your old and other comments... my 24 year old son is also LHAO...

Funny thing is, I have dispensed in Manhattan, Chicago and a few other places that most would not consider hick towns (last I heard they were part of the good ole USA), and some of the busier opticals in each of those cities (tough clientele also)... So experience in busy stores is not an issue.

The difference is that I see opticianry as a commitment (degree in ophthalmic science), and loving what I have the pleasure of doing, not playing a role. Also never said that ALL patients are compassionate. But when they are not, it is time to kill them with kindness and turn them into a life long customer...

Customers will also recognize when the person in front of them is confident in what they are doing, and if they do not feel this, then the non-compassionate customer as you call them is likely to become even less compassionate...

Sorry for the tough love, but I would hope that some of this is getting to your core so that you can find that you love this and make the commitment or make a commitment to something else that you love... Life is too short, at least as seen by us old guys... LOL...

I never said "Hick" town... I said small farm community/ rural etc. Sorry to break it to you, but I speak on behalf of the average optician, who would agree with me. I worked in Chicago too (Retail opticals in Lake Zurich, Geneva, Aurora, Batavia and south loop chicago) and that is where I experienced problems with PAL's. Most people here on Optiboard are not going to agree with me because they seem to be mostly hokey lens and frame reps who just "love" glasses for some odd reason.

The "Optician" career in America has many problems, mostly apparent by the high turnover rates in almost every single optical store in the country. Opticians need to be paid more to deal with PAL complaining patients.

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by rdcoach5

If you hold your breath and and tongue and want to deal with optical patients you will find a fascinating career. If you truly think flattops are superior to progressives, why do you think progressives out sell flattops by 9 to one in our practice. I see that flattops actually outsell progressives nationally by a small margin , according to 20/20 mag. I will submit a theory that poorly fitted progressive do not work and that encompasses proper panto,vertex and wrap. In other words, if you don't understand what I just said, you should not be fitting progressives. I have worn flattops and I MUCH prefer progressives, but only quality fitted progressives with quality designs. That means updated free-form digital designs like IOT or Zeiss GT2 3D. chack out IOT's website http://www.iot.es/

I believe that multiple pairs of SV lenses are superior to any multi-focal lens. The SV lens has been in existence for thousands of years in human society for a reason. It is NOT the optician's concern that the patient needs to have ALL focal lengths at his/her disposal in ONE lens.

I would love to sell a presby. pt. 3 pairs of sv glasses INSTEAD of a a progressive.

I am not saying that progressive lens technology is "bad", in fact I applaud the efforts and skill that are put into PAL technology... But maybe PAL's are meant just for you geeks that know how to appreciate them for what they are!

**Optician1234** · 02-07-2014, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by opty4062

Of course that is what I meant, those who are responding to your posts. I am just not that interested in investigating why you come off as so angry and combative. Good luck to you, sounds like you need it.

No one is being angry, I think some people are just hurt that they are realizing there are a lot of opticians in this country that deal with lots of rx problems everyday. Being an optician is first being an expert trouble-shooter.

**Uilleann** · 02-07-2014, 10:35 PM

Optician1234, have you considered adding yogic eye exercises to enhance your customer's experience in your store? I wonder too if you would agree that we universally return to couching to treat cataracts?

**Java99** · 02-07-2014, 10:36 PM

Yes, I'm in a rural area now. I started dispensing in Atlanta GA. Also have worked in Dallas. I've worked in 90 patient a day OD offices and slow 8 patient a day offices, private practice and the big retail chains. Worked for good docs and bad, good businesses and bad.

10% is high no matter the volume or population.

**erichwmack** · 02-07-2014, 10:47 PM

So you post a question about how to sell premium ff lenses. Then you post a statement about how pals are a waste of time and money and the source of optician stress. So either this is a forum for your venting about your job that must suck. Or you have made a bad career choice. Or have been poorly trained in optics. Or this whole thing is a sort of joke.