Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Hoya Summit ecp IQ inherent qualities/compatible coatings

  1. #1
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12

    Confused Hoya Summit ecp IQ inherent qualities/compatible coatings

    Hello all!
    I am hoping someone here has the answers to the following, as my shop/employer cannot.

    We just began offering Hoya lenses (yay!), but the educational/training materials that we have (so far, anyway) are not clear on many factors, and I think it is being sold improperly.

    The issues are these;

    1)Hoya has their own coatings, etc. (including photochromic), but my coworkers are selling Hoya lenses with exclusively Essilor coatings. Are the Essilor coatings just as compatible as the Hoya coatings? Or will they craze or rub off as they can sometimes do with less-than-compatible lenses? Why not sell the Hi Vision instead?

    2)Coworkers selling Hoya Summit ecp IQ, and listing on order as 1.5 index, when the Hoya materials show a beginning 1.59 index!

    3)Hoya lenses being sold, with additional charges for UV protection (isn't that integrated into the lense anyway?!)

    I have contacted Hoya (North America/USA) requesting further training materials, but have not heard back yet. (it has only been a few days, to be fair)

    I have been completely avoiding the Hoya lens conversation with patients, instead offering the old reliable...Essilor everything.
    I would much prefer promoting Hoya products (yup, you all know why!) but do not wish to create a bunch of unhappy customers that will return with messed up coatings, etc. Bad for them, bad for me/us.
    I am new to this job, and don't want to rock the boat, but i just don't feel right about selling something that I do not fully understand.

    Many thanks in advance to anyone out there who can help out!
    Last edited by madcapzany; 01-17-2014 at 11:56 AM. Reason: additional question

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bangor, ME
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    678
    Having spoken to Hoya recently (probably for the same reasons you made the big switcheroo) i can help you a LITTLE bit

    1: They should be selling the hoya lenses with the hoya coatings. it will a: be more cost effective and b: from what i understand their super hi vision or whatever is VERY comperable to avance, if not more scratch resistant. they would have to farm the hoya lenses out to get the essilor coatings and i feel like that would cost you more no? check your invoices as they come in

    2: not a clue, in all of the materials they gave me CR-39 is not listed as an option, starts at poly and phoenix.

    3: if your staff is selling CR-39 then it may not be, your lab could clarify this for you too i believe.

    Try very hard to stay away from their GPW lens, when we used them that lens was nothing but problems. Phoenix was a GREAT material though. the 2 year warranty makes it an easy upgrade for patients. We used to have problems with their coatings as well (mind you, 4 years ago) adn from what i understand they have really stepped up their game and made the coatings a LOT better. I haven't gotten to test the newer product out personally, but when i am back from maternity leave we are going to test them on a few different employees and see how they feel about them. And they will normally especially where you're a new account give you some vouchers for free lenses to try. that way you can have personal experience. You don't want to be selling hoya lenses with essilor on your face. Honestly, you need to get a rep in your office and have them sell the staff. Change is hard in the optical world man
    "what i need is a strong drink and a peer group." ... Douglas Adams - Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy

  3. #3
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12
    Hi, Becc, Thank you for your reply! (Although also hoping to get other opinions, if anyone has something to share, please do!)
    Good thoughts, Becc. I agree, but I don't have ready access to itemized invoices, though I may be able to get someone to show me.
    I have gone over and over the literature, and on the website, and I have not found any CR-39 available either, not in any of the Hoya lenses., so I think you are right on with that too. Apparently, they had a rep come in before I started working there, but for whatever reason, they still need much more training. I will ask if we can get a rep in, using my lack of knowledge as an excuse...maybe that will do it...or call and get a 'drop in' from an area rep.
    One of the women I work with has a great pair of glaases with (supposedly, anyway) the Hoya Summit Ecp IQ, and her script is very similar to mine. I am prety impressed by the field of vision throughout so I definitely feel confident with the lens itself.
    To tell you the truth, I sometimes wonder if there is a profit motive to selling this way, somehow. I would prefer it be a simple lack of understanding among us, for sure.
    Thank you, as well, for the heads up on the GPW lens and the thumbs up on the Phoenix material. I also agree about the 2yr guarantee as incentive to upgrade. Have you had much experience with their poly? You ain't-a-kiddin...change is either slow or no around here, or so it seems.

  4. #4
    Rising Star
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    72
    I may not be correct exactly but from my understanding;

    1. Hoya should be used with Hoya AR, from my lab experience we are not allowed to put Crizal on Hoya products. Hi Vision and Super Hi Vision are at the very least comparable and to a lot of people actually preferable to Essilor coatings. Crazing or other AR defect aren't caused by different lens designs as much as they are caused by the AR quality so that really isn't as much of a concern. I have heard a lot about Hoya's AR index matching though someone else would have to weigh in on that.

    2. Hoya's Phoenix material is just another name for Trivex, it's a 1.53 index material while 1.59 is polycarbonate, 1.5 could be either of these?

    3. Both Trivex and Polycarbonate have UV protection built in but I do know that VSP and (the new) EyeMed system charge separately for UV regardless so it would depend on the circumstances and your practices policies.

  5. #5
    Rising Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by D_Zab View Post
    I may not be correct exactly but from my understanding;

    1. Hoya should be used with Hoya AR, from my lab experience we are not allowed to put Crizal on Hoya products. Hi Vision and Super Hi Vision are at the very least comparable and to a lot of people actually preferable to Essilor coatings. Crazing or other AR defect aren't caused by different lens designs as much as they are caused by the AR quality so that really isn't as much of a concern. I have heard a lot about Hoya's AR index matching though someone else would have to weigh in on that.

    2. Hoya's Phoenix material is just another name for Trivex, it's a 1.53 index material while 1.59 is polycarbonate, 1.5 could be either of these?

    3. Both Trivex and Polycarbonate have UV protection built in but I do know that VSP and (the new) EyeMed system charge separately for UV regardless so it would depend on the circumstances and your practices policies.
    1. Hoya's HV, SHV and EX3 are all substrate matched to the material. They are the only company doing this and provides a far better superior adhesion process and long lasting durability over all other companies. Why someone would sell an Essilor coating on a Hoya product makes no sense. I wouldn't put Hyundai rims on a Jaguar.

    2. Correct, 1.53 PHX is Trivex, however their formulation is slightly modified versus regular Trivex from other companies. This is to remove the slight yellowish hue that is inherent in regular Trivex while also improving the abbe value. 1.50 index from Hoya is simply known as Hilux, which is just regular CR39 - other companies list it as 1.49.

    3. Charging additional for UV in either Trivex or Poly is simply padding the sale and not required.

  6. #6
    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Wauwatosa Wi
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    5,458
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    Charging additional for UV in either Trivex or Poly is...
    ...a wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

    To fleece, con, swindle, despoil, hustle, bleed, loot, plunder, or in general, behave like a pirate or
    politician.
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



  7. #7
    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    1,273
    I can confirm that the Summit ECP iQ (and CD iQ) both come in CR-39 (1.50) on the basis that I set the lenses up in our LMS and have watched several pairs go through production.

    If you can't get a sales rep to answer your questions, call the lab They had better know what's available.
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

  8. #8
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    florida
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    ...a wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

    To fleece, con, swindle, despoil, hustle, bleed, loot, plunder, or in general, behave like a pirate or
    politician.
    Fraud in the practice of Opticianry

  9. #9
    OptiBoard Professional
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Wyoming
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    122
    We sell a lot of Hoya lens products. I would avoid their ECP/CD progressives but their other offerings are good. VSP just added their new Array under the same price category as the ECP, and is a far superior lens design- pretty much an Auto II knock-off with similar performance but cheaper. Their Lifestyle II and Mystyle lenses are very nice. They have some good specialty lenses too, I wear their Sync which is a 'single vision' lens designed for near work eye relief, also great for early presbyopes.

    As for the coatings, as others have said there is no reason to put an Essilor AR on a Hoya lens. It will cost more and take longer. The HiVision VP is comparable to Alize, and EX3 is comparable to Avance, both in performance and durability.

    Hoya's Phoenix (trivex) is a spectacular lens material that is probably the best option for most patients, when you consider its low weight, high Abbe value, and unmatched impact resistance.

  10. #10
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by cowboytelemark View Post
    We sell a lot of Hoya lens products. I would avoid their ECP/CD progressives but their other offerings are good. VSP just added their new Array under the same price category as the ECP, and is a far superior lens design- pretty much an Auto II knock-off with similar performance but cheaper. Their Lifestyle II and Mystyle lenses are very nice. They have some good specialty lenses too, I wear their Sync which is a 'single vision' lens designed for near work eye relief, also great for early presbyopes.

    As for the coatings, as others have said there is no reason to put an Essilor AR on a Hoya lens. It will cost more and take longer. The HiVision VP is comparable to Alize, and EX3 is comparable to Avance, both in performance and durability.

    Hoya's Phoenix (trivex) is a spectacular lens material that is probably the best option for most patients, when you consider its low weight, high Abbe value, and unmatched impact resistance.
    Hi, thaks for the input, and the recommendations.
    We just went through fairly extensive and MUCH needed training with Hoya.
    Why would you recommend avoiding the ecp/cd progressives? The rep showed us some excellent demos of the lens effects (features/benefits) and they seem great...but of course any rep will naturally be biased in favor of his product.
    Coatings...yup, our lab caught it and told us they could or would not put crizal on a Hoya lens, and recommended the same coatings you have mentioned.

  11. #11
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12

    reply...thanks!

    Absolutely! When the rep gave our training, he echoed those same things...and, thankfully, our lab did catch the errors and made the lenses with hi-vision coating as it should have been done.
    Can I ask your opinion on the ecp/cd lines, since cowboy feels those 2 might be best avoided?
    Thank you for your reply, by the way!
    Last edited by madcapzany; 02-13-2014 at 12:12 PM. Reason: meant as a reply instead of stand-alone post

  12. #12
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12

    Stick out tongue

    Lovin' the Hyundai/Jag reference!

  13. #13
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by D_Zab View Post
    I may not be correct exactly but from my understanding;

    1. Hoya should be used with Hoya AR, from my lab experience we are not allowed to put Crizal on Hoya products. Hi Vision and Super Hi Vision are at the very least comparable and to a lot of people actually preferable to Essilor coatings. Crazing or other AR defect aren't caused by different lens designs as much as they are caused by the AR quality so that really isn't as much of a concern. I have heard a lot about Hoya's AR index matching though someone else would have to weigh in on that.

    2. Hoya's Phoenix material is just another name for Trivex, it's a 1.53 index material while 1.59 is polycarbonate, 1.5 could be either of these?

    3. Both Trivex and Polycarbonate have UV protection built in but I do know that VSP and (the new) EyeMed system charge separately for UV regardless so it would depend on the circumstances and your practices policies.
    Sadly, it seems that our practice habitually charges for uv and anti glare on both sides as a rule, no matter what the situation. So far, I have not included those xtra charges in any of my orders, and have yet to be 'busted' for doing the right thing. Eventually, I am sure it will be an issue, and I plan to play dumb (so easy for me hahaha!) ,express my horror (gently) and say omg I was taught that it was illegal/unethical to do so!
    Hopefully I won't be labeled as the *****y new girl.

  14. #14
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12
    I agree! I wish my employer did too!

  15. #15
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12

    pirates & politicians

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    ...a wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

    To fleece, con, swindle, despoil, hustle, bleed, loot, plunder, or in general, behave like a pirate or
    politician.
    Bwaaaaaahahahaha! Yessss, pirate or politician...in many (most?) cases it seems that politicians ARE pirates...but I hate to insult the pirates by comparing all of them to politicians!

  16. #16
    OptiBoard Professional
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Wyoming
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    122
    Quote Originally Posted by madcapzany View Post
    Hi, thaks for the input, and the recommendations.
    We just went through fairly extensive and MUCH needed training with Hoya.
    Why would you recommend avoiding the ecp/cd progressives? The rep showed us some excellent demos of the lens effects (features/benefits) and they seem great...but of course any rep will naturally be biased in favor of his product.
    Coatings...yup, our lab caught it and told us they could or would not put crizal on a Hoya lens, and recommended the same coatings you have mentioned.
    Not being a presbyope, I have not had a chance to try the ECP/CD personally, but I know that patients seem to have a hard time with switching to those lenses from other designs at the same price point. I have had especially bad luck switching Ellipse wearers to the CD. I don't know if it is a more narrow corridor at intermediate or what. I have a much better success rate with the ECP/CD IQ. I would not hesitate to use an IQ lens, but just not a fan of the Hoya conventional progressives, given my patients' adaptation issues with them. FYI, Hoya just moved the Array to VSP category O, which is where it should be since it is meant to compete with the Auto II.

  17. #17
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12

    Lightbulb I'm hip to your jive, man! (thanks for the clarification, that is)

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboytelemark View Post
    Not being a presbyope, I have not had a chance to try the ECP/CD personally, but I know that patients seem to have a hard time with switching to those lenses from other designs at the same price point. I have had especially bad luck switching Ellipse wearers to the CD. I don't know if it is a more narrow corridor at intermediate or what. I have a much better success rate with the ECP/CD IQ. I would not hesitate to use an IQ lens, but just not a fan of the Hoya conventional progressives, given my patients' adaptation issues with them. FYI, Hoya just moved the Array to VSP category O, which is where it should be since it is meant to compete with the Auto II.
    AAAh, yes, that makes sense. (and thanks for the reply)
    It is extremely hard (I think, anyway) to keep up with the huge number of available lenses!
    It is great to come to this board and hear different views,and the reasons behind them. It helps me, anyway.
    Thanks again!

  18. #18
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12
    While on the subject of progressives/special use...what do y'all think would be the best choices for a first-time PAL hyperope, with astigmatism? Well, not actually first time, as she has tried bad lenses in improper frames. We have a patient who had extremely bad experiences with cheap (that is, eyemed insurance allowed) lenses, and tiny frames. (of all the frames she showed me, none were over 22mm)
    She has tried toric lenses (concentric) and said her eyes were dry all the time, even with doc-prescribed drops.
    I think either choice will be an uphill battle, since her experience with then has been less than ideal, to say the least.
    I have her sold on larger, deeper frames. She has need for larger intermediate (as almost everyone does these days), good up-close (reading) , and some distance. Of course she wants it all in one lens (who doesn't!?).
    Any ideas?
    Last edited by madcapzany; 02-13-2014 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Ammending first time PAL, patient tried 'bad' (for her) ones before.

  19. #19
    OptiBoard Professional
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Wyoming
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    122
    Definity.

  20. #20
    OptiBoard Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Czech Republic
    Occupation
    Optometrist
    Posts
    11

    Blue Jumper Red vs Blue ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by madcapzany View Post

    1)Hoya has their own coatings, etc. (including photochromic), but my coworkers are selling Hoya lenses with exclusively Essilor coatings. Are the Essilor coatings just as compatible as the Hoya coatings? Or will they craze or rub off as they can sometimes do with less-than-compatible lenses? Why not sell the Hi Vision instead?

    2)Coworkers selling Hoya Summit ecp IQ, and listing on order as 1.5 index, when the Hoya materials show a beginning 1.59 index!

    3)Hoya lenses being sold, with additional charges for UV protection (isn't that integrated into the lense anyway?!)
    Best answers were given by Rob Brown :) I will just ADD my comments below :)

    1. Hoya's HV, SHV and EX3 are all substrate matched to the material. They are the only company doing this and provides a far better superior adhesion process and long lasting durability over all other companies. Why someone would sell an Essilor coating on a Hoya product makes no sense. I wouldn't put Hyundai rims on a Jaguar.

    2. Correct, 1.53 PHX is Trivex, however their formulation is slightly modified versus regular Trivex from other companies. This is to remove the slight yellowish hue that is inherent in regular Trivex while also improving the abbe value. 1.50 index from Hoya is simply known as Hilux, which is just regular CR39 - other companies list it as 1.49.

    3. Charging additional for UV in either Trivex or Poly is simply padding the sale and not required.

    Add. 1 - There is no such thing as an Essilor coating on a Hoya Lens. It's either Hoya material with Hoya coating or it's Essilor material and coating. Also in the adhesion battle and tests like scratch resistance Hoya will perform better than Essilor (2nd best coating will still beat the premium Essilor coating as far as scratch resistance goes - according to Colts Laboratories tests at least ;) )

    Add. 2 - Index is specific to material. 1.59 would indicate a polycarbonate lens, while 1.53 would be Phoenix for Hoya (or Trivex for others). Poly has quite sharp edges compared to Phoenix, also internal stress is higher in poly. Hilux is not only an index 1.50, as a Hoya Hilux lens will refer to a spherical design with a higher base curve than lenses from competitors. Due to adjusted higher base curve, the lens should perform better as far as it's optical qualities.

    Add. 3 - The 1.50 Hoya material provides UV protection up to 340nm, past that (so with 1.53, 1.60, etc.) you are well covered, as the higher index materials absorbs pretty much the whole UV spectrum. So no need to charge extra for UV protection.

    Hope this helps :)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. HOYA iQ Summit CD
    By Snitgirl in forum General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-24-2010, 06:58 PM
  2. Hoya iQ Summit CD
    By Snitgirl in forum Canadian Discussion Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2010, 06:13 AM
  3. Sola One vs. Hoya Summit ECP
    By KStraker in forum Progressive Lens Discussion Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-07-2007, 09:25 AM
  4. Hoya Wide and Hoya Summit ECP. What's the difference?
    By 4eyes in forum Progressive Lens Discussion Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-26-2006, 09:54 PM
  5. Hoya Summit-Pro
    By Chul in forum Progressive Lens Discussion Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-04-2006, 09:51 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •