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Thread: Help with the differant Progressives

  1. #1
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    Help with the differant Progressives

    Hey there,
    I'm newish to the private practice world and after seeing this site come up on Google every time I look for an answer (and using the ones I find here) I had to join.
    My question is this: What are some of the better lens designs out there? I know about the Shamir line and would love to expand my knowledge.
    I come from the big one hour chain and was introduced to progressives with very little information on them. When I left I found a co-worker had go to Shamir as a rep and has shown me amazing things. My lab reps have shown me more and seem to love Seiko lenses. I was told that Zeiss lenses where not good by the Shamir guy. But, I would love to have information on Zeiss and Seiko lenses to better know what I need to best help the doctor I work for. I know a bit about essilor and have come to mostly dislike their lenses, but love Crizal. Thank you in advance for any information.
    Last edited by Boldt; 11-22-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boldt View Post
    Hey there,
    I'm newish to the private practice world and after seeing this site come up on Google every time I look for an answer (and using the ones I find here) I had to join.
    My question is this: What are some of the better lens designs out there? I know about the Shamir line and would love to expand my knowledge.
    I come from the big one hour chain and was introduced to progressives with very little information on them. When I left I found a co-worker had go to Shamir as a rep and has shown me amazing things. My lab reps have shown me more and seem to love Seiko lenses. I was told that Zeiss lenses where not good by the Shamir guy. But, I would love to have information on Zeiss and Seiko lenses to better know what I need to best help the doctor I work for. I know a bit about essilor and have come to mostly dislike their lenses, but love Crizal. Thank you in advance for any information.
    That's pretty funny that the Shamir rep said Zeiss lenses were not good. Shamir and parent Essilor are paying royalty fees on every back-side progressive they make to Zeiss and Seiko. It seems they have the patents. There are some new totally free-form progressives that threaten to make all previous designs almost obsolete, however. IOT, Younger and others have developed an aspheric front with back-side free-form that should put the "WOW" back in progressive lenses. Available from my local lab , Toledo Optical and their partner labs of Walman, Soderberg and the rest.
    Last edited by rdcoach5; 11-23-2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason: addition

  3. #3
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    I think all the big players have very good lenses.

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    Thank you for taking the time to answer my post.
    Rdcoach, what are they doing to make that much of an improvement? What are the younger optic lenses called?
    I know that the big companies will use the other's designs for lenses that's not news to me. But why for example do so many Zeiss lenses have a 6mm drop? I've heard it's because the European frames have more of a tilt, not sure true it is. Or why Seikos have shorter drops. I've had amazing luck with the Shamir lines especially the Intouch and Auto 3. I'd still like to expand my knowledge and know why one lens works better for x and why another design works better for y.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Progressive lenses are a lot like shotguns. The equation works out like this; its 25% gun and 75% technique. My most effective shotgun for putting poultry on the table is an old Winchester Model 12 that my uncle gave me back in the sixties.

    Try not to be as much concerned with the specific lens as with your fitting technique. You will probably find that the most successful fitters stick to a small repertoire of lenses rather than jumping all over the place trying the latest and greatest thing to come down the pike. Select a lens and stick with it. I believe that the vast majority of non-adapts are caused by poor dispensing skills. Now, of course, no one wants to even consider that they screwed-up the lens geometry which is why we seek to find the magic bullet in a different lens.

    Just remember that ophthalmic optics is mostly horse pucky.

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    I think that was the best explanation ever! I use car comparisons my self, but that was very well put. Thank you!

  7. #7
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    I agree with Rbaker. It's all in the technique. I, for one, use mostly the Seiko Surmount. The Surmount comes in three corridor lengths, 10, 12, and 14. With the 10 length the minimum fitting height is 14. I NEVER use any minimum fitting height. I ALWAYS go one up. So, for me, the MFH for a 10 is 15. I fit the 12 at 19 and above. I NEVER use the 14 because, through experience, I have found that it's too far to look down for a normal patient and they have to raise their head way too much to get into the bifocal. If a person goes into a plastic frame and that frame is fit close to the face I always use the 10 no matter what the fitting height is. The Surmount is a fantastic freeform lens. 3rd generation. Luzerne Optical Lab has a very good explanation of the lens on their website. Also the best pricing for this lens that I could find anywhere.

    I always measure a progressive with the patient sitting down looking straight at me and then for the FINAL mesaurement, I have them stand up in a relaxed position and look at a point down the hall at eye level. I then look at my preliminary markings and then determine my final markings because people sometimes hold their heads naturally up or down. Many in box stores and others do not do this final measurement and miss a very important measurement. I've also learned that with the Surmount it is a good idea to measure 1mm below the pupil center. Always had excellent luck with that.

    Proof is in the pudding. Had a lady call us. Had done Seiko Surmount lenses for her about a year ago. She had a Rx change but was no longer in the area. She was in a remote part of Alaska now and was 100 miles away from the nearest optical shop. She didn't like the glasses they made for her. Her optical shop called me a few hours later and I told them what I used (they used a different freeform) and they remade the lenses for her and she called me back about a few weeks later and said the new lenses they made were much better and thanked me for telling them what I used.

    We also have a couple that comes back to Erie every couple years after moving to North Carolina. Every time back they come and get an eye exam and glasses from us because the glasses they make where she went in NC weren't as good as ours. Again, Seiko Surmont (and Supercede before that).

    Shamir Auto II did not do so well and so Shamir came out with Auto III. I got a pair from the Shamir rep and they are good lenses but not better than the Seiko Surmount and they cost more. The Seiko Surmount has the thinnest footprint for plus lenses of any of the progressives which makes them even better for our patients.

    But, in the end, it's what you feel comfortable with. I also use the Physio DRx when I have a VBA patient come in because VBA doesn't "recognize" the Surmount and when I have a very high minus or plus because the Surmount lens is not able to be surfaced at very strong Rx's. I do almost nothing else in progressives and I can count on one hand how many "regular" progressives I've done in the last year (4).

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    To rbaker:

    How's it going Marine? Navy Retired. Nam in 72 & 73. Also participated in Frequent Wind and Eagle Pull. Excellent advice in your post.

  9. #9
    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    I live by the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it" and try to keep them in the same design if they tell me they're not having issues.

    Like the others I agree with rbaker.

    Private practice rules!!!

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    Does the Surmount work well for myops? People say great things about it, but I've heard those in the context of using the lens for hypers.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorEd View Post
    To rbaker:

    How's it going Marine? Navy Retired. Nam in 72 & 73. Also participated in Frequent Wind and Eagle Pull. Excellent advice in your post.
    Served from 1957 through 1969 as Marine Aviator flying A-4's and rotor wing. Marble Mountain, Da Nang and USS Midway CV-41.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boldt View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to answer my post.
    Rdcoach, what are they doing to make that much of an improvement? What are the younger optic lenses called?
    I know that the big companies will use the other's designs for lenses that's not news to me. But why for example do so many Zeiss lenses have a 6mm drop? I've heard it's because the European frames have more of a tilt, not sure true it is. Or why Seikos have shorter drops. I've had amazing luck with the Shamir lines especially the Intouch and Auto 3. I'd still like to expand my knowledge and know why one lens works better for x and why another design works better for y.

    The aspheric front further reduces abberations inherent in every progressive design. This creates a smoother and wider effective field of view. I'm already wearing their previous design and I consider it slightly better than Zeiss Gt2 3D

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stedel View Post
    Does the Surmount work well for myops? People say great things about it, but I've heard those in the context of using the lens for hypers.
    Surmount works very well for myopes too. The lens just advertises that it is the thinnest lens for hyperopes on the market.

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    OptiWizard Yeap's Avatar
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    rbaker, an advice that worth while be kept.

    not to forget, frame and lenses is just a like a car and its tyre.. you can have a wonderful car but fitted with lousy grip it won't ever works too.. so understand well how a frame and a lenses can work with each other then your patient will appreciate you..
    Yeap


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    Redhot Jumper This post should become the bible of the progressive lens forum......................

    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post

    Progressive lenses are a lot like shotguns. The equation works out like this; its 25% gun and 75% technique. My most effective shotgun for putting poultry on the table is an old Winchester Model 12 that my uncle gave me back in the sixties.

    Try not to be as much concerned with the specific lens as with your fitting technique. You will probably find that the most successful fitters stick to a small repertoire of lenses rather than jumping all over the place trying the latest and greatest thing to come down the pike. Select a lens and stick with it. I believe that the vast majority of non-adapts are caused by poor dispensing skills. Now, of course, no one wants to even consider that they screwed-up the lens geometry which is why we seek to find the magic bullet in a different lens.

    Just remember that ophthalmic optics is mostly horse pucky.



    This post should become the bible of the progressive lens forum. I just love it.

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    "Just remember that ophthalmic optics is mostly horse pucky."

    i dont understand why you write this ? if the powers of the lens is wrong it will be a non adapt as well !

    best regards

  17. #17
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    Some great posts here. I have often found myself thinking that the "other progressive lens" might be better. Dispensed a lot of Seiko, then Hoya, now Shamir. Still wondering if Seiko wasn't better for a wider range of Rx possiblities, but it's hard to get very scientific about this. I agree it doesn't make sense to bounce around from one manufacturer to another, but each company says their lens is the best and most advanced!

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